164 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

pbiggz, on 27 June 2021 - 02:26 PM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

I want a balanced meta where all mechs and playstyles are equally viable.

The game is more balanced than it has been in years and yet you are carrying on more than ever about how unbalanced it is.

It is either a lack of understanding/skill or it is deliberate statements to favour your preferred playstyle.

Brawling / Midrange / Long range is all even. The issue is brawling now requires a bit more thought because long range is not a complete wet-noodle like it has been since 2017.

Edited by Armchair General, 28 June 2021 - 08:47 AM.
Quote cleanup

[1453 R]

Just to try a different tack briefly, because the ongoing circlejerk is amusing but not really useful to anyone anymore...

It almost sounds like the closest thing to a coherent argument Khobai is accidentally in the gist of making is that he believes it should be impossible for a long-range 'Mech to successfully defeat a brawler before the brawler can close in. That if an undamaged sniper and an undamaged brawler start at sniper ranges and the brawler just charges across an open field towards the sniper, 'balance' would be the sniper managing to damage the brawler just enough that it then becomes an even, coin-flip battle between the damaged brawler and the undamaged sniper.

The idea that sniper fire can deter brawlers altogether appears to be the sticking point, assuming the man is actually trying to make any coherent argument and isn't just knee-jerking to "NERF SNIPERZ" because he personally finds being defeated from outside his effective engagement range unsatisfying. I assume he wants the pre-Clan days back, where 'sniper' fire was just something a few 'Mechs with bad brawling hardpoints used to soften up targets before an inevitable closing to brawling range. The midrange trader/sniper playsyle is "balanced" when it's allowed to damage targets but not kill them prior to the brawler coming in and pulverizing the sniper.

Is that about right, Khobai? Legit question: is that the correct assertion? Your idea of "balance" between long-range and short-range 'Mechs is that the long-range 'Mech should win roughly half the time against a short-range 'Mech from a standing, ~800-meter start across open ground?

If so, there's words to be said about that, but I'm curious to check your rebuttal first.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2021 - 03:26 PM, said:

The game is more balanced than it has been in years and yet you are carrying on more than ever about how unbalanced it is.

because it is still unbalanced.

just because its slightly more balanced than when it was horribly unbalanced still doesnt make it perfectly balanced.

game needs work still.

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2021 - 03:26 PM, said:

Brawling / Midrange / Long range is all even

No it isnt. Others have already admitted brawlers have to work harder to get the same results.

And the fact brawlers arnt really being equally represented in-game kindve disproves what youre saying. Virtually every build I see is using 400m+ range weapons.

1453 R, on 27 June 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

Is that about right, Khobai? Legit question: is that the correct assertion? Your idea of "balance" between long-range and short-range 'Mechs is that the long-range 'Mech should win roughly half the time against a short-range 'Mech from a standing, ~800-meter start across open ground?

If sniping and brawling were the only two playstyles then each should win approximately 50% of the time. You can expect certain maps to favor certain playstyles but there should be a roughly equal number of maps favoring each playstyle.

Obviously thats an abstraction though because the game is more complicated than that because you have more than two different playstyles as well as hybrids. But from what I see pure brawling is underrepresented at the moment. Ive been keeping track of what mechs I see in games and looking at loadouts and im really not seeing a whole lot of pure brawlers. I see some hybrid brawler/midrange builds but not a lot of pure brawlers.

Most people seem to have accepted that they cant run mechs that cant do damage past 300m unless theyre light mechs or fast mediums.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2021 - 04:48 PM.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

because it is still unbalanced.

just because its slightly more balanced than when it was horribly unbalanced still doesnt make it perfectly balanced.

To which I say to not let perfection be the enemy of good. Changes are still ongoing, and even though quirks are next on the table there's still more weapon changes planned. LB5s going down in a crit slot may open up some new brawling oppurtunities, for instance. Point is, Improvements are still improvements, don't start whining because things aren't 100% perfect at the moment.

As for snipers v brawlers - i've always seen that more as a map design issue than a weapon balance issue (something nuPolar works to resolve) - as once the brawler gets in range they're nigh gaurenteed the kill assuming no other factors, as most long range options are severely lacking in DPS. The problem has always been the fact that most maps have favoured long, open sightlines with minimal useable cover.

Edited by MechNexus, 27 June 2021 - 04:27 PM.

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

...
If sniping and brawling were the only two playstyles then each should win approximately 50% of the time. You can expect certain maps to favor certain playstyles but there should be a roughly equal number of maps favoring each playstyle.

Obviously thats an abstraction though because the game is more complicated than that because you have more than two different playstyles.

That's not what I asked you. I gave a specific situation - if a sniper 'Mech and a brawler 'mech started ~800 meters apart and the brawler charged over an open field with no cover to engage the sniper, which of those two should win? Do you believe the sniper should lose that fight 50% of the time? That's the pertinent question here, Khobai.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

because it is still unbalanced.

No it isnt. Others have already admitted brawlers have to work harder to get the same results.

That is just your view. Which you are entitled to have, no argument there. That does not for a moment mean it's correct. Nor is it shared by the majority.

Working harder =/= Unbalanced.

Brawling was very easy/effective before the recent patches, in May it was actually too strong and thus SNPPC etc received a value re-balancein May - 5 weeks ago... Additionally IS MPL was so ridiculously devastating it was ridiculous for 3 years.

Now other weapons have been brought up to their levels players will now have to work harder. Just because you can no longer just charge at something in a NASCAR and delete it does not in any way mean there is no balance.

Brawling now means you need to approach with an element of caution and gamesense nothing more or less.

I would encourage you to record some of your brawling games, do 5 matches. Very easy to give pointers on improving and I am happy to do so. Or don't and keep blaming everything but yourself.

[Vindicated]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

No it isnt. Others have already admitted brawlers have to work harder to get the same results.

I play long range often (AC2, ERPPC, ERLL) and now with mid range (laser vomit, IS non-ER PPCs, clan AC10) buffed and more commonly in use, this is now the case as well.

Whereas before Cauldron you could be certain the enemy team was mostly MPL/MRM/LBX now in a QP environment it is much easier to be out-traded by the enemy. Before, the enemy had to get under 400m to return fire. Now they just need to move up a little and then 600-700m range is dangerous.

So by your logic, I should ask the Cauldron to buff cERPPCs such that they deal more damage and do not get out-traded by mid-range at 600m. I'm sure increasing PPC damage is a good idea right?

Or is the correct answer that I just need to make more careful peeks and think a little harder about when and where to expose?

Edited by Vindicated, 27 June 2021 - 04:53 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

what nascar MPL builds? im not seeing them.

So I just go caught up on this thread, and with all due respect...

Dude, you know this is BS. I see you in matches quite often, and while you may not notice me, I am nearly ALWAYS in a MPL, Nascar friendly, brawler. Many I drop with are in similar, and occasionally identical, mechs (we are usually a 3-4 man). The problem with brawling, if there is one, is that as of late it take more patience as a solo, and more concerted effort as a group (and ya still need patience) than in the last few years. That's it. As a related aside, go back to any advice for new players thread over the entirety of this game and ya know what the most frequent piece of advice given is? Have patience. This has always made the difference in any play style, and brawling today is no different.

The last several years SRM and MPL brawlers have pretty much had it easy. Other weapons have been brought back up to par though, and so now, one can't be as reckless as one might have become accustomed to over the last few years. That isn't making it less hit or miss than other play styles (what ever that actually means), it just means you have to play the game in the manner that everyone and their brother has been advising since the game started. If you choose not to comport to that reality, the consequences are likewise the same as they always have been: you will get owned by the opposing team and those players who recognize reality.

Anyway, I'll see you in game in my MPL, nascar friendly mechs, and likely losing because I lack the patience I know I ought to be practicing, but also knowing that it is my fault rather than some Machiavellian plot to specifically punish my bad habits.

[LordNothing]

the solution to brawl weapons is to make them at least someone tradeable at midranges. for example the hgauss also works out to about 560m at half damage (still better than an ac10). an ac20/uac20 has a half damage range of about 405m. these are somewhat viable min ranges, so brawlers might just need to pack more ammo. you can extend the max range slightly for those to get the half damage range further out. for the lb20 you can tighten the spread and reduce the minimum range, keep the 3x max range. so it does about the same up close but is more effective at beyond optimal ranges.

i think reduction in burst length was a mistake because that makes it possible to correct a more ranged shot on the fly, and you dont waste the entire shot. also its a brawling weapon, when used at point blank ranges, i dont think the lack of ppfld matters much. the trend to make everything a ppfld weapon is bad. it requires you balance them as a ppfld weapon then you have to gimp it in other ways to keep it from being op. imho the only ppfld weapons should be ppcs and gauss rifles, maybe mech rifles can be ppfld if they ever get a backport.

srm brawlers are hard capped and there is no lore method to make them effective beyond that. the obvious and currently available solution is to brawl with mrms instead, they can be just as mean as brawling run cool and are functional at moderate range. clans dont have this option unless you want to give atms a ramping minrange like clan lrms. but one idea to make srms useful at midranges is to simply cut out the rocket motor at their max range and allow them to continue on a ballistic trajectory until they hit something, rather than delete them outright. this would allow you to aim high and arc them to hit longer ranges, all be it with reduced accuracy though their damage would remain constant.

[Horseman]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

If sniping and brawling were the only two playstyles then each should win approximately 50% of the time. You can expect certain maps to favor certain playstyles but there should be a roughly equal number of maps favoring each playstyle.

That wasn't the question. The question was if, given a situation that overwhelmingly favors the sniper, the brawler should still win 50% of the time.

Let me add another: if the brawler gets the drop on the sniper and engages him in CQC with both mechs fresh, should the sniper win 50% of the time there too?

[MW Waldorf Statler]

when im play CoD MW Warzone ,and im drop in Plunder and
one mate is Sniper and sitting in the Skyscraper and most hit nothing
the other will play Fast kill in Sorage Town
im can quit the Match or play only for me ...and see thats the Own Team not have enough Plunder
and most
1 fight alone against coordinated Teams of 3
2.Can play nanny for the Sniper
3.Fight with the last member in Storage to becomes Kills and XPs and hope thats the Guy is a little a Teamplayer

its same by Zombies Outbreak ,you have a Team with Teamplayer ,or you 4 Man Team dies in differnet corners of the first Map.

[Khobai]

Horseman, on 27 June 2021 - 11:31 PM, said:

That wasn't the question. The question was if, given a situation that overwhelmingly favors the sniper, the brawler should still win 50% of the time.

Let me add another: if the brawler gets the drop on the sniper and engages him in CQC with both mechs fresh, should the sniper win 50% of the time there too?

No a brawler should not win 50% of the time if its at a disadvantage to a sniper. Likewise a sniper should not win 50% of the time if its at a disadvantage to a brawler. The whole point of having an advantage is that it skews the odds away from being 50/50. A sniper engaging on its terms should win more than 50% vs a brawler and a brawler engaging on its terms should win more than 50% vs a sniper. Thats common sense.

My problem is that its much easier for a sniper to gain the advantage over a brawler and much harder for a brawler to gain the advantage over a sniper. Thats whats not in parity. Long range is just better than short range for numerous mostly obvious reasons. Maps are a big part of it. Also the main advantages that short range weapons typically enjoy are higher dps and heat efficiency which dont really mean as much in a lower TTK environment. Higher dps/Heat efficient brawling weapons get better as TTK increases and worse when TTK goes down. I feel the maps not only favor sniping and midrange playstyles more but TTK is also a bit too low right now for brawling to reach equilibrium with other playstyles. TTK needs to be increased.

Edited by Khobai, 28 June 2021 - 02:39 AM.

[Castigatus]

So, as you've been told multiple times previously, it depends on the skill of the player in getting to that position of advantage, right?

Because cover and lines of advance are things that exist on every map in this game, even old polar had areas brawlers could use to close distance.

[Khobai]

Castigatus, on 28 June 2021 - 02:37 AM, said:

So, as you've been told multiple times previously, it depends on the skill of the player in getting to that position of advantage, right?

Because cover and lines of advance are things that exist on every map in this game, even old polar had areas brawlers could use to close distance.

we are assuming equal skill levels for obvious reasons

given a brawler and sniper are both equal skill the sniper will gain the advantage over the brawler more often than the reverse is true.

obviously skill can overcome adversity. No one is debating that. but brawlers still have to work harder to get the same match score.


theres also the fact MWO is a team game. having multiple snipers on your team is just plain better for map control. sniping as a playstyle gets better when more mechs on your team are snipers. because multiple snipers with overlapping fields of fire can focus down anyone who steps out of cover. whereas its much harder for multiple brawlers to focus fire because their weapons have way shorter ranges and theyre far more likely to block eachothers shots as well.

Edited by Khobai, 28 June 2021 - 03:02 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Khobai, on 28 June 2021 - 02:40 AM, said:

sniping as a playstyle gets better when more mechs on your team are snipers. because multiple snipers can punish anyone who steps out of cover. whereas its much harder for multiple brawlers to focus fire because their weapons have shorter ranges and theyre far more likely to block eachothers shots as well.

I don't know where to start.. or what to not-say to not get redacted. dude, you're in this game for years. it is .. astonishing .. how your understanding of the mwo-workings doesn't collide with reality - at all.


-a team that includes 4(supported) brawlers just wrecks face and rolls the enemy, fast.

-a team that includes 4 snipers is just an 8vs12 match; the moment the"12" realise that there's only 8bodies in a certain area .. oh boy.
and yeah: afterwards there are 4 snipers to mop up. sure.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 28 June 2021 - 03:09 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 28 June 2021 - 03:03 AM, said:

I don't know where to start.. or what to not-say to not get redacted. dude, you're in this game for years. it is .. astonishing .. how your understanding of the mwo-workings doesn't collide with reality - at all.

Yeah makes a claim about "equal skill".

Yet says brawlers will magically block each other but the long range won't?

If the skill is equal no one will block anyone in any situation. Complete contradiction.

[Castigatus]

justcallme A S H, on 28 June 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Yeah makes a claim about "equal skill".

Yet says brawlers will magically block each other but the long range won't?

If the skill is equal no one will block anyone in any situation. Complete contradiction.

^ this

If you're trying to claim everyone is equally skilled then you can't rely on an argument that depends on one side making a mistake the other does not. Nor can you say 'oh one will find it easier to get advantage than the other' when you then rely on saying 'oh the players are of equal skill', your first statement completely invalidates the rest of your argument.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

when the Fight is in a Building a Guy with a Pistol or Knife has very good Chances against each Sniper , in Open field ,the Sniper or Assault guy have many Fun with the running Pistol/Knife Guy,and each Battlefield have his strategical Points like by Ghettysburg thats the little Round Top and the Bloody Lane in ACW thats focuses for each Battle.

Why how many Folks in Battlefield 2 to 3/4/5 favored no Vehicle/Inf only Server ?! while with her favored playstyle and not realy Teamplay Behaviour and less Skill Luck in Vehicles/Jets thats the best Solution,othe Team very Great with a Good Chopper Blackhawk Pilot and Mates thats brings in combination with high Teamplay Skill an fast startegical Task Forrce tahst dominated the Match,or good Jetfighters/bombers ,when no guy have fun to use Tankclass or AAs

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 29 June 2021 - 02:00 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Hi brawling is bad because I can't just hold W into 12 enemy mechs until I get into 200m and kill 6 of them before I die.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 29 June 2021 - 05:44 AM.

[Khobai]

Castigatus, on 28 June 2021 - 04:17 AM, said:

^ this

If you're trying to claim everyone is equally skilled then you can't rely on an argument that depends on one side making a mistake the other does not. Nor can you say 'oh one will find it easier to get advantage than the other' when you then rely on saying 'oh the players are of equal skill', your first statement completely invalidates the rest of your argument.

Im not trying to claim everyone is equal skill.

Which is why I said specifically that skill can overcome adversity.

But when looking at two different playstyles from a purely objective standpoint you have to assume all other factors such as player skill are equal. Otherwise youre no longer objectively comparing just the two playstyles, but also comparing a worse player to a better player.

And what argument am I relying on that requires one side making a mistake the other does not? I do not recall ever making such an argument.

Its not a matter of one side making more mistakes. In fact for sake of argument lets assume neither side makes a mistake because both players are equally perfect. Its a matter of what advantages each side starts the game with. My opinion is that snipers start the game more often with advantages over brawlers. They dont have to "find" the advantages they start with them inherently.

denAirwalkerrr, on 29 June 2021 - 03:16 AM, said:

Hi brawling is bad because I can just hold W into 12 enemy mechs until I get into 200m and kill 6 of them before I die.

I would like to see you fight 12 enemy mechs by yourself in a brawler and kill 6 of them. because that sounds like total BS to me.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 04:07 AM.