164 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 June 2021 - 06:07 PM, said:

By this definition everything is hit or miss in this game. You have one life, and there are tons of variables.

of course. nothing is 100%. but brawlers are much more hit or miss than everything else

[Nerokar]

Alex Morgaine, on 24 June 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

...Meta means min max and if you min max there will be lots of min...

This is actually wrong. Meta is in many cases exactly NOT this. Meta is kinda next layer over the game. Metagame is the way to ensure the best path to success. So tactics, psychological warfare and optimization of builds to ensure a win.

Optimization of builds is the breaking point. Min Max CAN be meta. But only if you can force your way to play on your enemy.
In MWO this is not the case. In unorganized matches, it is not easy to force the brawl effectively (games where it works end with a stomp). And if you are not in position to force your game on your enemy, you have to get rid of the mins. So make a build that sorta works in every situation.

This is true in many games in non-competitive matches. BF4 for example: even on CQ maps, the weapons like AEK (900 rpm) are rock on the most used weapon was M416 (750 rpm). Why? perfect blend of DPS and accuracy. It was still usable past 40 meters.

Same in the old CS1.6 and CS.S (no idea past them)

[Castigatus]

Khobai, on 24 June 2021 - 10:59 PM, said:

of course. nothing is 100%. but brawlers are much more hit or miss than everything else

No, Brawlers are exactly as hit and miss as any other highly specialised playstyle, which is something you've been told repeatedly by multiple people who very obviously understand the game far better than you do.

Listen, I love to brawl. I love stomping up in a big fat mech rocking huge guns, vomiting pain all over people's faces from point-blank range, and watching them fall over after two or three volleys. But I also accept that if I'm not careful with how I pilot or how I choose engagements I'm going to get picked apart before I can ever get into my effective range, that certain maps are not optimal for that fighting style (old polar was a shining example of that) and I have to adapt my tactics when I play those maps, and that charging in like a brain-damaged lemming just to get into firing range simply gets me killed without accomplishing anything.

Yes, Brawling is an extreme playstyle with a big risk/reward balance, but so is long-range sniping (get caught by anything that isn't another sniper, might as well kiss your *** goodbye), so is running a dagger light (oh you got greedy or committed against a group you didn't know was there, now you're dead), so is piloting 'surprise *************' ECM stealth mechs (the old Mk1 eyeball can still spot you, your stealth can be neutralised and at that point you're at a massive disadvantage, and you give up a lot of options to fit that stealth armour in the first place). You not being able to make it work compared to other styles that have similar risk/reward balances is an inditement of your skills as a player, not an indication of some inherent problem with the style itself.

[Khobai]

Castigatus, on 25 June 2021 - 02:29 AM, said:

No, Brawlers are exactly as hit and miss as any other highly specialised playstyle, which is something you've been told repeatedly by multiple people who very obviously understand the game far better than you do.

Then where are all the brawlers? because im not seeing them being represented equally to other playstyles. If you count the number of brawlers vs pokers vs snipers in a match its not even close to equal representation.

PGI even had to create a special event just to get players to use SRMs and medium lasers again. That whole event was deliberate to help curb the poking/sniping meta back towards brawling. PGI did it so players could brush off their defunct brawlers for the event.

People on the forums have criticized the new canyon network for hurting brawlers. And that map gets picked CONSTANTLY and its certainly not people in brawlers that are voting for it. People have also admitted theyve had to stop playing brawlers in favor of poking and sniping builds in order to increase their avg match scores.

So yeah anyone who says brawling is exactly as hit or miss as other playstyles clearly doesnt know what theyre talking about. Brawling is limited to 300m or less. Other playstyles can often damage enemies upto 1000m or more. The range limitations alone make brawling way more hit or miss than any other playstyle.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 03:20 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

The event had nothing to do with promoting brawling. Where did PGI say they made the event specifically for that? Just conspiracy.

Look at the FREE Mechs associated with the event. Javelin the good build is Med Lasers and the event had Med Lasers, big conspiracy indeed.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 02:56 AM, said:

Then where are all the brawlers? because im not seeing them being represented equally to other playstyles. If you count the number of brawlers vs pokers vs snipers in a match its not even close to equal representation.

PGI even had to create a special event just to get players to use SRMs and medium lasers again. That whole event was deliberate to help curb the poking/sniping meta back towards brawling. PGI did it so players could brush off their defunct brawlers for the event.

People on the forums have criticized the new canyon network for hurting brawlers. And that map gets picked CONSTANTLY and its certainly not people in brawlers that are voting for it. People have also admitted theyve had to stop playing brawlers in favor of poking and sniping builds in order to increase their avg match scores.

So yeah anyone who says brawling is exactly as hit or miss as other playstyles clearly doesnt know what theyre talking about. Brawling is limited to 300m or less. Other playstyles can often damage enemies upto 1000m or more. The range limitations alone make brawling way more hit or miss than any other playstyle.

I'll meet your subjective nonsense with my own: now that everyone has figured out that you can still NASCAR on Canyon, and New Polar is frankly ideal for it, my brawling (6 mpl Jester) has reached new heights of joy, that more and more people seem to be catching on too. Gone are the days of running into LRMers as I swing around the back, or chasing a sniper out of their nest. It's all brawlers all the time now.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 02:56 AM, said:

Then where are all the brawlers? because im not seeing them being represented equally to other playstyles. If you count the number of brawlers vs pokers vs snipers in a match its not even close to equal representation.

PGI even had to create a special event just to get players to use SRMs and medium lasers again. That whole event was deliberate to help curb the poking/sniping meta back towards brawling. PGI did it so players could brush off their defunct brawlers for the event.

People on the forums have criticized the new canyon network for hurting brawlers. And that map gets picked CONSTANTLY and its certainly not people in brawlers that are voting for it. People have also admitted theyve had to stop playing brawlers in favor of poking and sniping builds in order to increase their avg match scores.

So yeah anyone who says brawling is exactly as hit or miss as other playstyles clearly doesnt know what theyre talking about. Brawling is limited to 300m or less. Other playstyles can often damage enemies upto 1000m or more. The range limitations alone make brawling way more hit or miss than any other playstyle.

Bloody hell, i've already said why you don't see many brawlers!

Allow me to clarify my position for the third time - I call brawling "hit or miss" because when everything is going right for it (nigh guarenteed in FP, as you can pick your mechs after seeing the map) it's an extremely competitive playstyle. However, due to the nature of QP, even a decently skilled player will either end up with mediocre damage numbers and/or die early, or will tear through the enemy team and finish the match with good damage numbers - all depending on the map and sort of team they get.

Hell, when dropping in FP with streamers over the past few weeks, whenever a brawl map has popped up, we immediately drop accordingly and proceed to trounce the enemy team. Brawling is fine.

[Horseman]

1453 R, on 24 June 2021 - 11:58 AM, said:

That's exasctly true. it's also why high-level comp play and Commodity Warfare are so impossibly boring. it's always exactly the same fight with exactly the same 'Mechs, every single time, because that's The Optimal Strategy for that map/game. I'd absolutely hate for the entire game to be that stale and predictable all the time. it's already worse than it could be because Puglandians are so terrified of using the entire map instead of just rushing to the middle and fighting on the same two and a half grid squares all the time.

Wrong about comp leagues - they have chassis restrictions exactly to prevent this. Only one of a given chassis per team per match, so "second best" (and sometimes even less optimal) chassis have to be used as substitutes. Some leagues go one step further and entirely ban reusing chassis after you win a drop using them, which again means you have to use second and third rate mechs and possibly switch to playstyles which use chassis you haven't already crossed off the list.

[Castigatus]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 02:56 AM, said:

Then where are all the brawlers? because im not seeing them being represented equally to other playstyles. If you count the number of brawlers vs pokers vs snipers in a match its not even close to equal representation.

PGI even had to create a special event just to get players to use SRMs and medium lasers again. That whole event was deliberate to help curb the poking/sniping meta back towards brawling. PGI did it so players could brush off their defunct brawlers for the event.

People on the forums have criticized the new canyon network for hurting brawlers. And that map gets picked CONSTANTLY and its certainly not people in brawlers that are voting for it. People have also admitted theyve had to stop playing brawlers in favor of poking and sniping builds in order to increase their avg match scores.

So yeah anyone who says brawling is exactly as hit or miss as other playstyles clearly doesnt know what theyre talking about. Brawling is limited to 300m or less. Other playstyles can often damage enemies upto 1000m or more. The range limitations alone make brawling way more hit or miss than any other playstyle.

Two things

1. No, the event was not for that and I would be really interested in seeing how you came to that conclusion.
In the Javelins case the weapons they chose were used by two very common varients in the lore, the JAV-11A and JAV-11B, which boated 7 medium lasers (oh look, it's the fit the same MWO chassis is quirked for, what a shock) and paired SRM 4s respectively.

It's a little more tenuous with the Arctic Cheetah but PPCs are generally good longer-range weapons that large numbers of Clan mechs can use, hell there's a trial Warhawk that runs four of them if you genuinely don't own anything else, and there are multiple clan mechs already in the game that can easily run highly effective SRM6 builds (Arctic Wolf anyone?). So I can see why they would have chosen the weapons they did there as well, they're easy to make fits with and can be used on a wide variety of mechs people can own.

2. People on the forums don't represent everyone playing the game.
Yes, there are a fair number of complaints about the new canyon but you know what, I went back and looked and it's the same ten or twelve names doing the vast majority of the complaining every single time. Now, If you're trying to generalise an argument about an entire map or a whole playstyle based on the word of a dozen or fewer actual players then I'm sorry, but that's not an argument I will ever be taking seriously.

Now the one thing you got right is that brawling is very range dependant but that's been that way since the game was first released and it's certainly not changed in any significant fashion over the years. So to try and claim it's somehow significantly disadvantaged now compared to other playstyles when nothing has changed about how it works or how it relates to those playstyles just doesn't make sense to me.

[1453 R]

Horseman, on 25 June 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

Wrong about comp leagues - they have chassis restrictions exactly to prevent this. Only one of a given chassis per team per match, so "second best" (and sometimes even less optimal) chassis have to be used as substitutes. Some leagues go one step further and entirely ban reusing chassis after you win a drop using them, which again means you have to use second and third rate mechs and possibly switch to playstyles which use chassis you haven't already crossed off the list.

To be fair, that restriction cannot be enforced in quick play. In QP, i.e. where virtually the entire population plays, there's absolutely no restrictions on using "The Best" stuff wherever you can. As stated, in the example Canyon Network Domination match, there's one correct answer: a heavy jumping brawler. In highly organized comp play one can say "you can only have one heavy jumping brawler on your team". In quick play? Twelve out of twelve 'Mechs on a Canyon Dom match, if players get to pick after seeing the match, will be heavy jumping brawlers.

Admittedly, that is in part because Domination is such an absolutely godawful game mode, but the idea extends everywhere else, too.

[D A T A]

Khobai, on 23 June 2021 - 12:03 AM, said:

[mod]This thread was split from its original discussion due to being off-topic[/mod]



brawlers dont need to jump faster. brawlers need brawling weapons that arnt anemic. brawling weapons do not kill mechs significantly faster than PPFLD weapons and thats a problem for brawlers. Especially since most brawlers are usually damaged by the time they finally get into weapons range.

and JJ buffs absolutely benefits snipers way more because it gives them more angles to attack brawlers from at long range. it lets them jump more often as well. that makes it more difficult for brawlers to hide.

again PGI chose to nerf JJs for a reason. Ignoring those reasons is not going to benefit the game.

so brawling is weak? then why everyone does only nascar-brawl playstyle?

[pbiggz]

D A T A, on 25 June 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

so brawling is weak? then why everyone does only nascar-brawl playstyle?

Because he wants to be mad about something and he has to reckon with his own mistakes if there isn't an external boogeyman he can blame all his losses on. No different than the kids who thought splitting up the quick play queue into "People I can win a match against queue" and "people I cant win a match against queue". Just a total refusal to engage in anything close to introspection, and a complete commitment to making the game objectively worse, but in a specific round about way that would improve their play experience alone.

[Khobai]

D A T A, on 25 June 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

so brawling is weak? then why everyone does only nascar-brawl playstyle?

theyre not in brawler specific builds when they nascar. theyre in mostly midrange builds or longrange builds. those builds work perfectly fine for nascaring too.

[justcallme A S H]

So all the NASCAR MPL builds are midrange now?

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 25 June 2021 - 04:47 PM, said:

So all the NASCAR MPL builds are midrange now?

what nascar MPL builds? im not seeing them.

occasionally I see like a timberwolf or linebacker or something like that with medium pulses. but thats hardly every game and its hardly everyone playing MPL nascar builds. its just not happening.

im mostly seeing ppc/gauss, ultra/rotary autocannons, and a whole lot of ERmeds and large pulses/large heavies. Some ERLLs too but not as many. and lots of small pulses on lights. I see a good number of MRMs too.

again to resolve this I would like to see PGIs stats regarding what mech builds are being used the most in quickplay. I doubt very much that MPL nascar builds are anywhere near the top.

and yes literally any build can nascar. MPL or brawling loadouts arnt required. all thats required is chasing the enemy around in circles until you catch their slower mechs with your faster mechs.

pbiggz, on 25 June 2021 - 02:29 PM, said:

Because he wants to be mad about something and he has to reckon with his own mistakes if there isn't an external boogeyman he can blame all his losses on. No different than the kids who thought splitting up the quick play queue into "People I can win a match against queue" and "people I cant win a match against queue". Just a total refusal to engage in anything close to introspection, and a complete commitment to making the game objectively worse, but in a specific round about way that would improve their play experience alone.

says the guy that wants to keep buffing top tier mechs while ignoring all the mechs at the bottom. youre the one that wants to objectively destroy the game by continually buffing top tier mechs for his own agenda because theyre the only mechs you use.

All I want are equally balanced playstyles and for all mechs in the game to be roughly equal without a clear hierarchy of metamechs dominating the game. I accept that some mechs will always be better than others but I believe the disparity between the best and worst mechs in MWO is currently far too great and that buffing top tier mechs more is not the way to fix that.

And I have never once blamed losing games on brawling being weak. I simply dont use brawling builds anymore because they are weak. Its unfortunate but its an inferior playstyle in the current meta. Midrange skirmishers and longrange snipers have significant advantages over short range brawlers which allow them to get much higher average matchscores. You can absolutely still win with brawlers, your average matchscore will just be lower.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 05:37 PM.

[Leone]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

To be fair, that restriction cannot be enforced in quick play. In QP, i.e. where virtually the entire population plays, there's absolutely no restrictions on using "The Best" stuff wherever you can. As stated, in the example Canyon Network Domination match, there's one correct answer: a heavy jumping brawler. In highly organized comp play one can say "you can only have one heavy jumping brawler on your team". In quick play? Twelve out of twelve 'Mechs on a Canyon Dom match, if players get to pick after seeing the match, will be heavy jumping brawlers.

I would counter that Medium jumping brawlers, such as the Nova, would still accel.

~Leone.

[FinnMcKool]

i wouldn't call Nascar a brawling game

it more of "lets sacrifice our slow mechs so we faster mechs get more kills , who cares if we lose"

the mech builds could be just about anything.

but Peoples, we are getting way to emotional and angry over this,

just let the everyone have their own opinion , don't need to drag anyone

if you want you can pile on me, come on I can take it (maybe I like that sort of thing)

look, i once got beat up because this girl said i liked her, but i didnt really like her
i just wanted to meet her friend, but by that time her boy friend and his friends thought i was dissing her,
and then. ..................................................

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

what nascar MPL builds? im not seeing them.

Pretending a top tier build category isn't top tier doesn't actually change what the meta is, it just proves you have a selective memory and you argue in bad faith.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

im mostly seeing ppc/gauss, ultra/rotary autocannons, and a whole lot of ERmeds and large pulses/large heavies. Some ERLLs too but not as many. and lots of small pulses on lights. I see a good number of MRMs too.

Sounds like you're seeing a pretty healthy variety of mechs and builds.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

says the guy that wants to keep buffing top tier mechs while ignoring all the mechs at the bottom. youre the one that wants to objectively destroy the game by continually buffing top tier mechs for his own agenda because theyre the only mechs you use.

My favourite mech is the summoner, specifically, the prime. In all but 3 specific configurations (none of which can be built on the prime), its absolute trash tier, so I run around with a non-optimal triple large pulse laser build instead. You tell me who wants everything they play buffed and everything they don't play nerfed, because this sounds a whole lot like ******* projection.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

All I want are equally balanced playstyles and for all mechs in the game to be roughly equal without a clear hierarchy of metamechs dominating the game.

And by this you mean you only want your favourite mechs and play styles buffed, and every time even a slight change to another play style is suggested, you'll be the first one to whine about how your favourite play style is getting nerfed. You do this every single time dude.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

And I have never once blamed losing games on brawling being weak. I simply dont use brawling builds anymore because they are weak.

No they aren't. They're disgusting strong, you just need to be in the right place to use them, like any specialized build.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

Its unfortunate but its an inferior playstyle in the current meta. Midrange skirmishers and longrange snipers have significant advantages over short range brawlers which allow them to get much higher average matchscores.

This is true, if of course you run into the wide open with a brawler like several people have already accused you of doing.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

You can absolutely still win with brawlers, your average matchscore will just be lower.

[Redacted]

Edited by Armchair General, 28 June 2021 - 08:45 AM.

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 27 June 2021 - 02:26 PM, said:

Sounds like you're seeing a pretty healthy variety of mechs and builds.

yeah in tier 4-5 theres lots more variation. not in tier 1-2 though. tier 1-2 is the same exact meta mechs over and over.

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And by this you mean you only want your favourite mechs and play styles buffed, and every time even a slight change to another play style is suggested, you'll be the first one to whine about how your favourite play style is getting nerfed. You do this every single time dude.

no wanting every mech and playstyle to be equal is not the same thing as wanting my favorite mechs and playstyles buffed. not even close.

I want every mech and playstyle combination to be equally viable.

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You can't ask for your favourite builds and playstyles to get buffed, while also demanding that every other play style be nerfed or removed because you don't like them. That's not a defensible position. It's not an honest one. It provides no constructive value to the game.

I never asked for any other mech or playstyle to be removed. That is an outright lie. I want a balanced meta where all mechs and playstyles are equally viable. Yes that may require weakening a playstyle thats too strong or strengthening a playstyle thats too weak but what I want is an equilibrium. What you want is top tier mechs and a boring poking/sniping meta.

youre the one that wants to keep buffing your favorite mechs. you want top tier meta mechs to get buffed even more while keeping every mech that isnt top tier in a state of perpetual worseness. rather than trying to balance all mechs to be within a reasonable disparity gap of eachother.

your argument isnt coherent because you dont even want a balanced game. you said so yourself.

Edited by Armchair General, 28 June 2021 - 08:46 AM.
Quote cleanup

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

yeah in tier 5. not in tier 1. tier 1 is the same exact meta mechs over and over.

Idk man, maybe making jets work across the board might have helped with that but since to you that's simply not an option I guess we'll never find out.

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

no wanting every mech and playstyle to be equal is not the same thing as wanting my favorite mechs and playstyles buffed. not even close.

You keep saying that, but either you have no solutions, or the ones you have are overwhelmingly conservative because you are scared you might make another play style "too strong".

The whole reason this thread exists is because you lit up the jumpjet thread with your brawler victim complex and once you latch onto a point of view, you flatly refuse to entertain any criticism or contrary argument.

Khobai, on 27 June 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

Edited by Armchair General, 28 June 2021 - 08:46 AM.
Quote cleanup