164 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

Again a lot of maps dont have cover that brawlers can conveniently leapfrog between to close the distance. Some of the maps are just designed so you have to cross a wide open area in order to get into brawling range.

The center of Terra therma is a good example of that. Being a brawler on terra therma sucks. You basically have to hide until enough enemy mechs are dead that you can close the distance. But by then the game has almost always been decided one way or another anyway.

Thats one of the biggest reasons sniping/poking are stronger playstyles because you can affect the game immediately from the onset. You dont need to wait for specific circumstances or a timing window to close the distance in order to reach peak effectiveness.

Yeah, this sort of thing where not every area of a map is conducive to my play style does suck. Like, whenever I try to run a sniper from the tunnel on Classic Forest, I can't seem to hit much and occasionally get run over by enemy lights and brawlers. Try running an ERLL boat in the HPG basement; not fun and down right unfair. Same thing when I try to skirmish on top of the HPG wall. Sometimes there aren't even any enemies to even harass up there, and the lack of room to maneuver just sucks; fall off, and it takes like 2 full minutes to get back up there! Stupid maps. Why is it so hard to make every square inch favorable to all play styles.


/s in case it wasn't obvious.

Edited by Bud Crue, 29 June 2021 - 08:58 AM.

[Khobai]

pattonesque, on 29 June 2021 - 08:51 AM, said:

Sniper weapons work anywhere from their maximum range down. A CERPPC will do just as much damage at 900m as it does at 10m. This range is significantly longer than the brawler's, so it has the advantage outside of 300m or so.

Sniper weapons going up against brawl weapons at a brawl weapon's maximum range are at an extreme disadvantage because their heat is significantly higher and cooldowns tend to be longer. a good sniper will still do damage to a brawler at close range, but the brawler will tear the sniper apart assuming all else is equal.

Yes but that also wrongly assumes the brawler still has full armor and isnt massively damaged by the time it gets into brawling range which is more often the case than not.

If the brawler is massively damaged when it gets to brawling range then it doesnt matter if their weapons are more heat efficient because theyre so close to dying anyway.

Usually snipers can still tear brawlers apart at brawling range because theyve already inflicted so much damage on the brawler while it was trying to get into brawling range.

Again everything youre saying is 100% dependent on there being cover that the brawler can constantly leapfrog between in order to close the distance. But most of the maps just arnt designed like that. A lot of them have wide open areas that you have to cross if you ever want to get into brawling range.

Also heat efficient weapons have no real advantage in a low TTK environment. Heat efficient weapons get stronger when TTK is higher not when its lower. And what we have now is not high TTK... mechs die in 3-4 alphas to the CT right now.

Bud Crue, on 29 June 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

Why is it so hard to make every square inch favorable to all play styles.

I would argue thats part of good map design.

The new polar highlands is actually pretty good for all three playstyles. I like it a lot.

unlike the new canyon network which screwed brawlers. That was a poor remake.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 10:24 AM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes but that also wrongly assumes the brawler still has full armor and isnt massively damaged by the time it gets into brawling range which is more often the case than not.

If the brawler is massively damaged then it doesnt matter if their weapons are more heat efficient because theyre so close to dying anyway.

Heat efficient weapons have no real advantage in a low TTK environment. Heat efficient weapons get better when TTK is higher not when its lower.

This was addressed here,

pbiggz, on 29 June 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

Every map has open space. If you think you have to wade across it your team isn't supporting you, or the enemy team is in a location that won't let you force a favourable engagement. Brawling is a specialist playstyle, its only effective in certain situations.




The center of Terra Therma is a nasty killbox for everyone. Brawlers are not uniquely punished here. If you are receiving support from your team, you'll get some good close range trades. If your team just wants to poke or nascar you'll probably have a bad time, and that's just how matches play sometimes. Without real objectives or respawns, specialists sometimes just don't find the situation they need to perform. This is not a grounds to buff them, or nerf their counterplays, at least, not in a vacuum, and your readiness to carry out those measures demonstrates a lack of understanding of the finer points of the balance process.




You seem to conflate medium ranged skirmishers with snipers. The center of Terra Therma is altogether too small for snipers, who usually perform best at ranges outside of 700 meters, where said skirmishers can't really reach them. You'll never see the ER Large Laser direwolf microwaving people inside of the caldera on that map because engagements are usually in the 400-600 meter range and the direwolf doesn't really handle return fire well.

But, without meaning to, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Skirmishers are very flexible. That IS their competitive advantage. They also rarely pack 100+ point alphas and enough armor to roll several alphas of a similar size because they arent specialized for face to face combat at sub-200 meter ranges with no options for escape or cover. Skirmishing is a generalist role. As others have said here, about 60% effective, 90% of the time. Brawling promises much higher damage efficiency and kill potential if you can force people to engage on your terms, an endeavour that requires not just personal discipline and skill, but also cooperation from your team, and a good bit of luck. Do you know what that means? It means its harder to play. It's supposed to be. Just because you have trouble playing it doesn't mean it's underpowered, or that sniping/skirmishing is overpowered, and you are consistently failing to engage in any degree of introspection regarding this.

here,

Castigatus, on 29 June 2021 - 08:32 AM, said:

Really dude, this has been explained multiple times now??

You know what the snipers weakness is, its if their opponent closes range they are at a huge disadvantage and are very likely to die. Mid-range and brawler builds massively out dps snipers in their preferred range brackets, thats the weakness.

Is that clear enough for you?

here,

pbiggz, on 29 June 2021 - 08:38 AM, said:

If you trap one in a close quarters encounter they basically have no recourse. 8 ER large lasers do some damage, but a double LBX triple snub build on a victor or an annihilator will wipe the floor unless you really can't aim. You know that, so stop pretending sniping is some kind of omnipresent ultrastrategy, because creating boogeymen is not a substitute for a real argument.

and here,

Castigatus, on 29 June 2021 - 08:20 AM, said:

Khobai, I'm just going to put this very simply.

You need to stop claiming brawling is inherently weaker than other specialised playstyles, it isn't true, it's blatantly obvious it isn't true, and it's also blatantly obvious from the statements you've made that you dislike it because you're bad at it. Now if you were simply willing to say 'I don't like brawlers because I'm not good at that playstyle, therefore I avoid playing them', rather than relentlessly bending the truth and misrepresenting things so you can try and claim its anything other than that, you would be getting a hell of a lot less heat from pretty much everyone whos been criticising you, including me.

You don't understand how brawling works to begin with, you don't understand the tactics available to brawlers who know what they're doing both in game skills and proper map knowledge, and you very obviously don't understand when to stop digging and admit you were wrong about all of it.

No one is saying you can't have the opinions you do, and from your comments elsewhere you have plenty of them, but when your response to being challenged on them is to start spouting misinformation, moving goalposts during a conversation by constantly editing posts, or accusing the Cauldron of bias towards certain mechs and playstyles with zero supporting evidence, is it any wonder people are getting a bit tired of dealing with you?

Here, let me give you an example.

I don't play snipers, I've had very little success with them when I have and I find the playstyle very unsatisfying compared to a mid-range or brawling setup. I also have trouble spotting targets, reacting quickly enough, and judging projectile travel times when firing at very long range. But that doesn't mean I want sniping not to be part of the game or that I don't understand how to be a good sniper, hell I had a game on Tourmaline last night where someone on the other team put on a masterclass on how to be an effective sniper at our expense and I learned a lot from it. It's my skills and execution that are lacking not the features of the playstyle itself.

See how easy that was?

Now you try, but please also try and be honest about it.

And this is just what was on the last page.

Just because you decided to ignore it doesn't mean it isn't true. The entire premise of your argument is flawed and continuing too push it the way you have been is gross and misleading. You are not a victim. The Cauldron isn't changing the game to specifically make it worse for you. The sun and moon do not orbit you Khobai.

You need to stop.

[Khobai]

having better dps doesnt matter if the brawler is one hit from death by the time it gets there.

thats what you dont seem to get. a lot of the time when brawlers get into brawling range theyre so severely damaged that having better dps or better heat efficiency no longer means anything.

im not choosing to ignore anything. youre choosing to ignore the fact that while the brawling is closing the distance its being shot at the entire time. while the brawler cant really shoot back because its weapons are out of range. so when it finally gets into brawling range it has to face a nearly undamaged sniper mech in a damaged brawling mech which no longer has enough armor left to leverage any kindve dps or heat efficiency advantage to overcome the PPFLD loadout of the sniper.

your entire argument is based on the brawler being able to get into brawling range without taking severe damage. and its already been mentioned that a lot of maps dont provide the necessary amount of cover for brawlers to be able to do that. A good number of maps have deathzones with very little cover that have to be crossed or you will never get into brawling range. Thats the problem with maps like canyon network, terra therma, river city, etc... they all have these large central areas with little or no cover.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 10:38 AM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:25 AM, said:

having better dps doesnt matter if the brawler is one hit from death.

Stop ignoring everything else that's been said and pretending the one quote extracted without context from any one of six different essays proving you wrong, somehow proves you right.

We all know what you're doing.

[pbiggz]

And stop editing your posts

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:25 AM, said:

having better dps doesnt matter if the brawler is one hit from death by the time it gets there.

thats what you dont seem to get. a lot of the time when brawlers get into brawling range theyre so severely damaged that having better dps or better heat efficiency no longer means anything.

im not choosing to ignore anything. youre choosing to ignore the fact that while the brawling is closing the distance its being shot at the entire time. while the brawler cant really shoot back because its weapons are out of range.

your entire argument is based on the brawler being able to get into brawling range without taking severe damage. and its already been mentioned that a lot of maps dont provide the necessary amount of cover for brawlers to be able to do that.

We know your game dude.

We covered all of this, none of us are gonna say it again.

[Khobai]

i

pbiggz, on 29 June 2021 - 10:32 AM, said:

And stop editing your posts

We know your game dude.

We covered all of this, none of us are gonna say it again.

then stop saying it again.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:25 AM, said:

your entire argument is based on the brawler being able to get into brawling range without taking severe damage. and its already been mentioned that a lot of maps dont provide the necessary amount of cover for brawlers to be able to do that. A good number of maps have deathzones with very little cover that have to be crossed or you will never get into brawling range.

What maps? The only map you cited too as having this problem is the center of Terra. The center. Don't go to the center then. Boom, problem solved. Go wide like the rest of us and fight along the periphery, and then punish anyone who tries to engage you in the rocks. You've also mentioned new Canyon in general, but anyone who has played Canyon, old or new, knows there is lots of cover where a brawler can go throughout the whole map and aoid being exposed to sniper fire. In every map in this game, including old Polar, a brawler can get into brawling range without taking significant damage. The only exception that I can think of was on Tourmaline if you got the bad alpha dropzone, but I believe they have finally fixed that, and even if they haven't (I haven't played the map in a while) it is not an issue that affects only brawlers but any slower mechs that get that unfortunate starting spot.

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:39 AM, said:

then stop saying it again.

You first, Khobes. You've been spewing the same pointless, uninformed, nonsensical rhetoric for something like forty or fifty pages of posts across half a dozen threads, now. Nobody's buying it, but you keep tryin'a sell it. Make the forum a better place to be and stop.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes but that also wrongly assumes the brawler still has full armor and isnt massively damaged by the time it gets into brawling range which is more often the case than not.

That assumes that the only mechs on the board are that one brawler and that one sniper, which just isn't the case. That sniper will very likely also be dinged up by the time the brawler closes in. So the hypothetical setup here is just that... it has to ignore 22 other players' efforts.

Plus the original topic was that brawlers can't kill things quickly because of weapon stats. I find it ironic that such an argument is being made AFTER the introduction of triple Snub PPC builds. They clearly can (and with other builds too). And maps are being modified to be less of a turkey shoot for the snipers.

So really this is more of an angst fest on the other guy getting the drop on someone before they could close the distance and rip their face off. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Confirmation bias covers most of it.

I do appreciate the data-driven approach that the Cauldron folks are trying to apply to the game. "Better" does not mean "perfect" and I'm willing to accept that as the meta comes and goes.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes but that also wrongly assumes the brawler still has full armor and isnt massively damaged by the time it gets into brawling range which is more often the case than not.

This is the case for you.

It generally is not the case for me, and many other folks telling you otherwise.

Is this because brawling is a weak playstyle or is it something else?

[Khobai]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 June 2021 - 11:45 AM, said:

That assumes that the only mechs on the board are that one brawler and that one sniper, which just isn't the case. That sniper will very likely also be dinged up by the time the brawler closes in. So the hypothetical setup here is just that... it has to ignore 22 other players' efforts.

A brawler is more likely to get dinged up when theres 11 other enemies.

Quote

Plus the original topic was that brawlers can't kill things quickly because of weapon stats. I find it ironic that such an argument is being made AFTER the introduction of triple Snub PPC builds. They clearly can (and with other builds too). And maps are being modified to be less of a turkey shoot for the snipers.

Only one map has been modified in a way that improves the situation for brawlers (Polar Highland)

pattonesque, on 29 June 2021 - 12:16 PM, said:

This is the case for you.

It generally is not the case for me, and many other folks telling you otherwise.

Is this because brawling is a weak playstyle or is it something else?

Thats because youre hiding. The problem with doing that is you arnt helping your team at the onset of the game. Which can actually cause your team to lose the game because theyre effectively down one mech during the entire time youre hiding. What youre doing is not without consequence.

Anybody who plays a brawler can hide for half the game until enough enemy mechs are dead that you can engage safely. The question is does that help your team more than if you played a midrange or sniper build and contributed more from the onset? And I believe the answer is no.

I believe being able to contribute at the onset of a match is much more effective and conducive to winning than having to hide for several minutes and wait for the ideal opportunity to engage. Map control and being able to suppress enemy movement with long range weapons is a very important aspect of the game.

Thats what I see as the major weakness of brawlers. The inability to have any effect on the early game. And often by the time they do get into the game they dont appreciably change the outcome because their team already suffered irrecoverable losses while they were hiding doing nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 12:57 PM.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Thats because youre hiding.

This reads very much like a rationalization on your part in order to explain why your mech is in tatters by the time you get close enough to brawl. A good brawler doesn't hide like your standard MWO pubbie, a good brawler uses cover to advance to contact.

Seriously, learn how this works and try it yourself.

Edited by pattonesque, 29 June 2021 - 12:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

You're never going to improve at brawling if all you do is complain about it on the forums.

Go play the game and record some videos of your gameplay. I'll happily spend 1hr of my own time giving pointers on 5 matches. You will be making plenty of mistakes as it's clear you don't have good game sense (and you don't balance from the bottom).

I'd be most certain most mistakes are basic/easy to fix.

Afterwards you can then stop saying brawling is weak and the forum doesn't have to deal with constant barrage of "I want I want".


Are you going to take up the offer or just keep complaining?

[denAirwalkerrr]

pattonesque, on 29 June 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

This reads very much like a rationalization on your part in order to explain why your mech is in tatters by the time you get close enough to brawl. A good brawler doesn't hide like your standard MWO pubbie, a good brawler uses cover to advance to contact.

Seriously, learn how this works and try it yourself.

You need to play game to be able to learn maps tho.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 29 June 2021 - 12:49 PM.

[Horseman]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Thats because youre hiding. The problem with doing that is you arnt helping your team at the onset the game. Which can actually cause your team to lose the game because theyre effectively down one mech during the entire time youre hiding. What youre doing is not without consequence..

If anything, pattonesque's performance says he's playing much more aggressively than you do: https://leaderboard....que%0D%0AKhobai

Also, how is putting your mech into losing trades helping your team, exactly? It doesn't.

pbiggz, on 29 June 2021 - 10:32 AM, said:

And stop editing your posts

He already got warned about that by the mod team before. Just report whenever you see him doing this to change the goalposts, bricks will eventually fall.

Edited by Horseman, 29 June 2021 - 12:52 PM.

[pattonesque]

Horseman, on 29 June 2021 - 12:51 PM, said:

If anything, pattonesque's performance says he's playing much more aggressively than you do: https://leaderboard....que%0D%0AKhobai

Also, how is putting your mech into losing trades helping your team, exactly? It doesn't.

yeah man like I'm not the best player but this dude is all "heh, you're causing your team to lose " when he doesn't win as often as I do

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Thats because youre hiding. The problem with doing that is you arnt helping your team at the onset of the game. Which can actually cause your team to lose the game because theyre effectively down one mech during the entire time youre hiding. What youre doing is not without consequence.

Anybody who plays a brawler can hide for half the game until enough enemy mechs are dead that you can engage safely. The question is does that help your team more than if you played a midrange or sniper build and contributed more from the onset? And I believe the answer is no.

I believe being able to contribute at the onset of a match is much more effective and conducive to winning than having to hide for several minutes and wait for the ideal opportunity to engage. Map control and being able to suppress enemy movement with long range weapons is a very important aspect of the game.

Thats what I see as the major weakness of brawlers. The inability to have any effect on the early game. And often by the time they do get into the game they dont appreciably change the outcome.

Weird, you edited your post from four words to like five hundred

I play incredibly aggressively, man. I'm looking to fight constantly and if I'm brawling I'm pressing to contact ASAP. I just don't wander out in the open like a dolt and get torn up before the fight actually starts.

Edited by pattonesque, 29 June 2021 - 01:03 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Only one map has been modified in a way that improves the situation for brawlers (Polar Highland)

Two. Add Canyon Network to your list. Lots of low ground, tons of ramps.

And that's two maps in two months. I look forward to seeing the next map that gets touched.

[Khobai]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 June 2021 - 01:20 PM, said:

Two. Add Canyon Network to your list. Lots of low ground, tons of ramps.

And that's two maps in two months. I look forward to seeing the next map that gets touched.

I feel the new canyon map hurts brawlers compared to the old canyon map

brawlers were pretty strong on old canyon because enemy mechs got trapped in the canyons where brawlers could tear them apart with ambushes

its not as easy to ambush mechs anymore because of all the ramps everywhere that let mechs get out of the canyons

plus the PPFLD changes cauldron made has made it highly effective to say on the high ground on canyon and snipe from afar. I feel the dynamic of the map was changed to reward sniping more.


my favorite games on the new canyon map are actually conquest games where both teams yolo into eachother in D5 area and you get some nice brawling. but for the other gamemodes its just a whole lot of poking/sniping from the highground and whichever team can control the highground better seems to win.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 01:39 PM.

[Bud Crue]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 June 2021 - 01:20 PM, said:

I look forward to seeing the next map that gets touched.

Heaven forbid we try to bring this thread back to discussing actual play styles vs. the seemingly random gripes of a single disgruntled person, but in regard to the next map, I believe it is HPG that is slotted for revision (or maybe the next one after?).

I confess that this one has me a bit anxious. As a fairly dedicated brawler this one is in the running for being my favorite (classic Frozen probably edges it). I know that it suffers from the sin of predictability, but as far as a map goes I think it is excellent for a wide range of play styles (and not just the one I like): brawling (take the top and fight it out), sniping (take the wall and be a pain), skirmishing (make the folks who are taking the top miserable by poking from the ramps and second level/sides), mid range trading (from just about any point inside the walls) etc. I do worry about what Francois might do to this map to make it more interesting and/or less predictable, because I love it as it is and I sure hope that it maintains its flavor (edit: to clarify: I consider canyon to have maintained its flavor, but new polar is a completely new experience from old polar).

Apropos, if anyone has an in with Francois or the powers that be, I for one, sure wouldn't mind one bit if he posted some sort of Devlog or status update to give us some sort of heads up to what he's thinking here.

Edited by Bud Crue, 29 June 2021 - 01:42 PM.