108 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

There's another thread about LMGs specifcally but I thought it worth rasing this separatly.

Could the cauldron look at all the 'support' weapons when they get a chance please? By which I mean the following weapons and what I think are their weaknesses:

MGs - work best when boated to the extreme
Flamers - don't do any damage, need three or more to work properly
Tag - not enough range, almost always better to use an ER laser instead
NARC - really heavy, limited ammo, slow firing
STREAK - heavy, weak, and difficult unless you have at least six of them

I feel that it should be a viable choice to take these instead of other weapons of the same weight. Currently they are often used in trick builds or as a follow up to primary weapons.

There's also the issue that some Clan mechs can boat a whole bunch of MGs or Flamers, which makes up for their weakness, whereas IS mechs don't have that ability.

I feel that Flamers should do a lot more damage at the expense of maybe a small reduction in heat generation, that IS MGs should do a bit more damage thanks to their weight and lack of boatability, that Clan MGs should also do a little more damage, that Tags should have better range and lighter weight, and that NARCs and STREAKs should have all their factors buffed a bit because they're so heavy. Note the emphasis in small buffs, major buffs would definitely throw out balance.

I'm not sure what the knock-on effects of all that would be though, what do others think?

Edited by Dogstar, 30 June 2021 - 12:59 AM.

[Khobai]

These are my recommendations:

ISMGs:
ISLMG = increase dps from 0.7 to 0.9
ISMG = increase dps from 1.0 to 1.3
ISHMG = increase dps from 1.5 to 2.0

This helps balance out the IS MGs better and helps make up for the lack of ballistic hardpoints on IS mechs.

Flamers:
-More damage? I cant think of any other way to buff flamers without completely overhauling them.

TAG:
-No changes

NARC:
-Increase the base duration of NARC by 30%
-Remove the 15% duration bonus from each enhanced NARC skill node (total of 30%)

This essentially bakes the duration bonus from the skill nodes into the base NARC so you dont have to waste skill points on NARC. Its bad enough NARC takes up tonnage it shouldnt eat up your skill points too.

STREAKs/ATMs/LRMs:
-reduce the ecm lockon time penalty from +50% to +25%
-possibly also reduce the global lockon time by .25 seconds
-increase the size of the lockon area back to the size of the red targeting box
-revert the nerfs to clan streaks
-change the streak hit table to hit legs less and CT more (hitting legs 30% of the time is way too high vs lights)

The biggest issue with streaks and also an issue for homing missiles in general right now is that it takes way too long to lock-on especially in the presence of ecm. And the lock-on area is so small now its not intuitive for new players anymore. Clan streaks also do miserable damage currently which needs to be fixed. And lastly streaks hit legs too often which screws light mechs more than it should.

New Utility Hardpoint:
New type of hardpoint for utility weapons like TAG/NARC.TAG/NARC can either use a utility hardpoint or an energy/missile hardpoint respectively. Mechs like the Raven/Kitfox and other support mechs would get a utility hardpoint so they dont have to waste energy or missile hardpoints on TAG/NARC.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 01:41 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I feel Streak SRM should not be considered a support weapon and if anything deserve their own topic.
But while we are at it, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions that I feel are inherent in this post:

Khobai, on 30 June 2021 - 01:22 AM, said:

STREAKs/ATMs/LRMs:
-reduce the ecm lockon time penalty from +50% to +25%
-possibly also reduce the global lockon time by .25 seconds
-increase the size of the lockon area back to the size of the red targeting box
-revert the nerfs to clan streaks
-change the streak hit table to hit legs less and CT more (hitting legs 30% of the time is way too high vs lights)

The biggest issue with streaks and also an issue for homing missiles in general right now is that it takes way too long to lock-on especially in the presence of ecm. And the lock-on area is so small now its not intuitive for new players anymore. Clan streaks also do miserable damage currently which needs to be fixed. And lastly streaks hit legs too often which screws light mechs more than it should.

• ECM and lock-on time penalty only applies when not in LOS, so Streak SRM are in most cases completely unaffected by ECM lock-on time increase. (see Mar 2019 Patch Notes)
  
• Streak Hit table already has the heaviest weight on the CT (see Jan 2019 Patch Notes)

[MechNexus]

Two quick things, bearing in mind I'm on mobile so I don't have easy access to all the sources:

First, going off Aidan's post, that means the main way ecm can counter streaks is with stealth armour - and if someone's committed to that and all the downsides involved, then yeah, they should be able to shut down streaks. If that's a problem to you, bring a tag and/or BAP.

Secondly, streaks are due a buff back to a midpoint between their pre and post 4/20 states.

[Pillowseller]

Dogstar, on 30 June 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

Currently they are often used in trick builds or as a follow up to primary weapons.

Isn't that good enough? As you said, these are support weapons. And I heard SSRM will be buffed in the next patch.

Having said that, I wouldn't complain if IS MGs become a little stronger.

[MrTBSC]

MG works well with small lasers for PD or knifefights just pair 2 mgs together with 2 or more small lasers or small pulse

most mechs won´t allow you to boat more then four MGs anyway ..

Tag doesn´t need a rangebuff, it´s range IMHO is good ... there also should be a reason even for a LMRer to get to direct LoS at a range were he risks retaliation for that quick lock ...

NARC generally is something either LRM Boats equip or mid to low-heavy mechs with a spotting supportrole,
for its slow velocity it has a homing ability and again is meant to require you getting somewhat close to target or mark static targets ... not something you can just throw out and have a LRM lance get free reign on the marked target ..



so personally only thing i agree on is to take a propper look on flamers and streaks ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 30 June 2021 - 03:50 AM.

[MechNexus]

Back on PC, can now elaborate further.

IMO machine guns are in a good spot - they're for mechs with more ballistic hardpoints than tonnage to use for autocannons, essentially the ballistic equivalent of SPL boating. When you buff their base damage, do remember that the resulting DPS will be multiplied by up to six or even eight depending on the mech. If you want machine guns to be more useful in smaller numbers, quirks are the solution - which I remind you, we're due for.

Tag and Narc absoloutely do not need a buff. TAG is already in a good spot, as it breaks ECM and tightens missile spread - but Narc is already a total death sentence as is. It doesn't need to be even easier to run.

[PocketYoda]

Buffing machine guns is the same as buffing lights mechs, just saying.

[Khobai]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 30 June 2021 - 02:16 AM, said:

I feel Streak SRM should not be considered a support weapon and if anything deserve their own topic.
But while we are at it, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions that I feel are inherent in this post:

• ECM and lock-on time penalty only applies when not in LOS, so Streak SRM are in most cases completely unaffected by ECM lock-on time increase. (see Mar 2019 Patch Notes)

If you actually read my post I specifically mentioned all homing missiles including LRMs. The ECM lockon time penalty needs to be reduced because its oppressive.

And yes there are absolutely cases where ECM affects streak lockon as well. Have you never prelocked a target thats out of LoS before jumpjetting or running around a corner?

And I also suggested a 0.25s global reduction to lockon time.

Quote

Streak Hit table already has the heaviest weight on the CT (see Jan 2019 Patch Notes)

They changed the distribution to be slightly more weighted to the CT but as far as im aware Legs still get hit 30% of the time! Which is still way too often.

Lights losing a leg is as good as a death sentence. Streaks seem to kill legs before they kill CT (assuming frontal CT hits not rear CT hits). So I do not believe im wrong that the weighting needs further adjustment. Especially since players will other weapons like lasers will be aiming for the legs as well.

Again if Cauldron listens to the community like they claim to they will present my suggestions. Thanks.

MechaGnome, on 30 June 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

Buffing machine guns is the same as buffing lights mechs, just saying.

Its not buffing any of the lights that are absurd like the piranha though.

because its a clan mech and im only suggesting buffing IS MGs.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 08:21 AM.

[Dogstar]

Pillowseller, on 30 June 2021 - 02:44 AM, said:

Isn't that good enough? As you said, these are support weapons. And I heard SSRM will be buffed in the next patch.

Having said that, I wouldn't complain if IS MGs become a little stronger.

Well the point I was trying to get across is that there shouldn't really be any support weapons, all of them should be a viable choice (obviously tag is different)

and please lets not turn this into another debate on lock on weapons and other flights of fancy. The lock-on mechanics and other ideas require code changes which we aren't going to see for some time. I'm only really interested in changes that we can make right now via the xml and that the Cauldron can debate.

Edited by Dogstar, 30 June 2021 - 08:25 AM.

[Khobai]

it just requires xml changes not coding changes

the lockon time is a variable that can literally be changed by anyone

it doesnt require an engineer

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 30 June 2021 - 07:50 AM, said:

[/list]If you actually read my post I specifically mentioned all homing missiles including LRMs. The ECM lockon time penalty needs to be reduced because its oppressive.

And yes there are absolutely cases where ECM affects streak lockon as well. Have you never prelocked a target thats out of LoS before jumpjetting or running around a corner?

And I also suggested a 0.25s global reduction to lockon time.

Honestly - where's the problem here? ECMs countering lockons isn't oppressive, it's their bloody job - and consider that TAG, BAP and NARC all exist to counter ECM in turn.

[Khobai]

MechNexus, on 30 June 2021 - 08:48 AM, said:

Honestly - where's the problem here? ECMs countering lockons isn't oppressive, it's their bloody job - and consider that TAG, BAP and NARC all exist to counter ECM in turn.

because ECM only weighs like 1.5 tons and missile systems weigh like 20 tons and ECM is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for how little it weighs.

and then on top of the 20 tons of launchers you already have to carry youre being asked to carry additional equipment to counter ECM as well? as well as a compulsory BAP now that missile lockon time is based on sensor range.

ECM is absolutely absurd. So I dont think reducing the missile lockon time penalty from +50% to +25% is unreasonable. Its a very reasonable suggestion in fact.

Especially since missile lockon time was nerfed due to the artemis changes. So its just helping to restore what was taken away by unfair PGI nerfs.

And you dont think its oppressive that it takes like 10 seconds to lockon to an ecmd mech with LRMs? That is incredibly oppressive. Most locks dont get held nearly that long. Even NARC beacons typically dont last that long before the NARCed mech goes to hard cover or gets in an ecm field to nullify the NARC.

I would argue nerfing ECM just a little is a necessity at this point.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 09:12 AM.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 30 June 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

because ECM only weighs like 1.5 tons and missile systems weigh like 20 tons and ECM is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for how little it weighs.

and then on top of the 20 tons of launchers you already have to carry youre being asked to carry additional equipment to counter ECM as well? as well as a compulsory BAP now that missile lockon time is based on sensor range.

ECM is absolutely absurd. So I dont think reducing the missile lockon time penalty from +50% to +25% is unreasonable. Its a very reasonable suggestion in fact.

Especially since missile lockon time was nerfed due to the artemis changes. So its just helping to restore what was taken away.

And you dont think its oppressive that it takes like 10 seconds to lockon to an ecmd mech with LRMs? That is incredibly oppressive. Most locks dont get held nearly that long. Even NARC beacons typically dont last that long before the NARCed mech goes to hard cover or gets in an ecm field to nullify the NARC.

You're missing two key pieces of the puizzle here.

Firstly, lockons are incredibly oppressive to play against if you don't have the appropriate counters, did you consider that?

Secondly - Lockons do not take any effort to use whatsoever. If you don't want to be shut down by a 1.5t piece of equipment and sparing a single ton (or half ton for clans!) on a TAG is somehow too much for you, play a direct fire weapon system.

This is entirely a you problem and you're whining about literally nothing. What's next, you'll cry about torso twisting being oppressive to play against because it lets people protect open components & spread damage?

[Khobai]

MechNexus, on 30 June 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

You're missing two key pieces of the puizzle here.

Firstly, lockons are incredibly oppressive to play against if you don't have the appropriate counters, did you consider that?

Secondly - Lockons do not take any effort to use whatsoever. If you don't want to be shut down by a 1.5t piece of equipment and sparing a single ton (or half ton for clans!) on a TAG is somehow too much for you, play a direct fire weapon system.

This is entirely a you problem and you're whining about literally nothing. What's next, you'll cry about torso twisting being oppressive to play against because it lets people protect open components & spread damage?

Again ecm only weighs 1.5 tons

its tonnage is not proportional to everything it does. and the list is extensive. it doesnt just reduce lockon time it does a bunch of other things too.

and again missiles boats are already carrying 20+ tons of launchers and ammo. forced to take bap. AND also forced to take counters to ECM? as well as a host of sensor skills. just to deal with something that only weighs 1.5 tons?

you dont see a problem with that?

ECM has always been heinously overpowered and it absolutely needs a nerf. Especially now that more mechs than ever have ECM. Its not uncommon to see 5-6 mechs on a team with ECM now. Multiple overlapping ECMs are not as easy to counter as you claim.

Its not complaining about nothing. Im complaining about ECM doing way too much for only 1.5 tons. And I am absolutely right. There is nothing else in the game that does as much as ECM does for only 1.5 tons. AMS, TAG, NARC, BAP, etc... none of those even come close.

And reducing ECM lockon time penalty from 50% to 25% is hardly going to cause LRMpocalypse IV

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 09:42 AM.

[FinnMcKool]

personally as some one who plays a lot of ECM and LRMs i think the ECM is just fine the way it is, now we all know they are still working on the balance still so my Opinion may change

lets wait and see

ps
Classic Canyon is the best map ever made.

[Leone]

Dogstar, on 30 June 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

I feel that Flamers should do a lot more damage at the expense of maybe a small reduction in heat generation,

That would make them less useful, not more. When I add a flamer or two to my builds, I don't do it for the damage, I do it for the heat advantage, which you're proposing to nerf. Flamers are in a decent place, and don't need anymore nerfs. Sure, I wouldn't mind more range, but I could say that 'bout all my brawly weaponry.

~Leone.

[Captain Caveman DE]

ECM is a giant problem ..
that is: if you ONLY play lockon-stuff, you got no TAG and you're only doing IDF. anybody else? don't care about ecm very much.

having problems with ecm? try a direct-fire-approach, as you should in the first place.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 30 June 2021 - 11:47 AM.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 30 June 2021 - 09:27 AM, said:

Again ecm only weighs 1.5 tons

its tonnage is not proportional to everything it does. and the list is extensive. it doesnt just reduce lockon time it does a bunch of other things too.

and again missiles boats are already carrying 20+ tons of launchers and ammo. forced to take bap. AND also forced to take counters to ECM? as well as a host of sensor skills. just to deal with something that only weighs 1.5 tons?

you dont see a problem with that?

ECM has always been heinously overpowered and it absolutely needs a nerf. Especially now that more mechs than ever have ECM. Its not uncommon to see 5-6 mechs on a team with ECM now. Multiple overlapping ECMs are not as easy to counter as you claim.

Its not complaining about nothing. Im complaining about ECM doing way too much for only 1.5 tons. And I am absolutely right. There is nothing else in the game that does as much as ECM does for only 1.5 tons. AMS, TAG, NARC, BAP, etc... none of those even come close.

And reducing ECM lockon time penalty from 50% to 25% is hardly going to cause LRMpocalypse IV

ECM mechs are already carrying a full loadout of weaponry as well as their ECM. My ECM Night Gyr carries 32 tons of weaponry, and 5 tons of ammo. I find it very difficult to believe that a streak/atm/lrm boat would struggle to spare a ton, or half a ton, for a tag or light tag.

[justcallme A S H]

Captain Caveman DE, on 30 June 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

ECM is a giant problem ..
that is: if you ONLY play lockon-stuff, you got no TAG and you're only doing IDF. anybody else? don't care about ecm very much.

having problems with ecm? try a direct-fire-approach, as you should in the first place.

I share your view - I don't have any issue getting locks against ECM mechs.

I just carry a TAG, Probe and get into LoS. Locks come thick and fast then. Rain all manner of missle hell down on ones foes.

I'll look at the OP and comment later as I know some has been discussed by Cauldron. All