117 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

MyriadDigits, on 03 August 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

You do not need a lock to use the target spotted command, but afaik you do need the reticle on the mech you intend to spot.

Yep. You can target spot something 1800m+ away without a lock.

Just need a reticule over them!

I use R as often as I can. Information shared is information gained. That said I spec people and even after 5 seconds they still have not pressed R. Kinda confusing as you could have done that in time and potentially found a weakness in a mech and adjusted your firing

[HauptmanT]

That's advanced game play, buddy. You just keep your superleet skillz to yourself, pal. We arent all quite there yet, friend.

I'm getting into the habit now myself, of using the R key on non lurmers and actually paying attention to the paper dolls. It's really killing my damage numbers, but improving my win/loss and K/D ratio.

Spray and pray is more fun though, and gives you a more immediate dopamine hit. "Wow 900 dmg in my urbie, woohoo!"
I gotta wait a month to see those other numbers.

[justcallme A S H]

I would not call holding my reticule over a target and using a mouse wheel command, elite skills...

Pretty basic control of your peripherals. If anything it's one of the easier things in the game to do.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

HauptmanT, on 04 August 2021 - 04:17 AM, said:

I gotta wait a month to see those other numbers.

No you don't. https://mwomercs.com...le/leaderboards is a thing.

[HauptmanT]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 04 August 2021 - 04:27 AM, said:

No you don't. https://mwomercs.com...le/leaderboards is a thing.

Bah this websight is bad, and it should feel bad.

jarl's list is king.

And ASH, that first line was what we 'in da bidness' call,,, humor.

[TELEFORCE]

justcallme A S H, on 04 August 2021 - 04:26 AM, said:

I would not call holding my reticule over a target and using a mouse wheel command, elite skills...

Pretty basic control of your peripherals. If anything it's one of the easier things in the game to do.

IMO those skills aren't what make guided weapons great. What makes them great is knowing when to pop up and use them. For my ATM boats, I learned it's best when I'm traveling with an assault 'mech and support their firepower by hill humping with them or poptarting to let missiles fly for the best hits. 'Mechs with jump jets like the Night Gyr make great missile boats for this reason because they can use their jump jets and fire missiles mid-flight to get the best firing arcs and highest hit probability due to the high artificial vantage point.

[Windscape]

LRMs, ATMS, and any other weapons that require low levels of skill to use should always underperform compared to other weapons that require skill development to see results. Right now, LRMS can farm 1000 damage just as easily as laservomit. Laservomit requires skill that requires initial aim (for damage) and continued aim (for focused damage). LRMS require no aim, and spread damage, but indirect lrms (which require less effort) have an arc that can make them focus legs. So Id agure LRMS are too good, when comparing them to one of the archetypes The Cauldron buffed the most.

[Nightcrept]

Ah, the great my weapon takes more skill than yours, so it should be more powerful argument.

I think Lrm's have been one of the most debated balance issues ever. The devs must have nightmares about them.lol


That being said, as a returning player I figured I should throw in my observations.I've been gone for years. lol

While i've only played a few games with lrm;s so far, they seem to have decent dmg and spread but the lock on times are horrendous, making them nearly nonviable.

Now before the argument starts about they should suck because they don't require skill, consider this. Most new players join because mechwarrior offers more than just twitch warfare. I mean lets face it if you want twitch there are better games for that.
And lrms etc are what separates mechwarrior from the other twitch games. SO making them nonviable hurts player retention in the long run as it removes a major part of the game.

I'm not calling for them to be buffed to the point they were during lurmaghedon but increasing lock time would go a long way to making them playable.

[Windscape]

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

Ah, the great my weapon takes more skill than yours, so it should be more powerful argument.

I think Lrm's have been one of the most debated balance issues ever. The devs must have nightmares about them.lol


That being said, as a returning player I figured I should throw in my observations.I've been gone for years. lol

While i've only played a few games with lrm;s so far, they seem to have decent dmg and spread but the lock on times are horrendous, making them nearly nonviable.

Now before the argument starts about they should suck because they don't require skill, consider this. Most new players join because mechwarrior offers more than just twitch warfare. I mean lets face it if you want twitch there are better games for that.
And lrms etc are what separates mechwarrior from the other twitch games. SO making them nonviable hurts player retention in the long run as it removes a major part of the game.

I'm not calling for them to be buffed to the point they were during lurmaghedon but increasing lock time would go a long way to making them playable.

LRMS separate MWO from other twitch games, but "separation" does not mean good. People coming to MWO to play a LRM archetype is nonsense. People leave games like CSGO and WoT because they dislike Autorifles, and SPG's, because they do not require skill, but can dominate games. Weapons that require skill are more rewarding which results in an increase in retention. When someone is killed by a weapon system that requires little to no skill, player retention will decrease.

IMO, Lrms need flat out DPS reduction (DATA's video is proof) but more spread when fired indirectly and velocity decreases will also benefit people that are getting lrmed.

[Nightcrept]

Windscape, on 04 August 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

LRMS separate MWO from other twitch games, but "separation" does not mean good. People coming to MWO to play a LRM archetype is nonsense. People leave games like CSGO and WoT because they dislike Autorifles, and SPG's, because they do not require skill, but can dominate games. Weapons that require skill are more rewarding which results in an increase in retention. When someone is killed by a weapon system that requires little to no skill, player retention will decrease.

IMO, Lrms need flat out DPS reduction (DATA's video is proof) but more spread when fired indirectly and velocity decreases will also benefit people that are getting lrmed.

In your opinion perhaps. I personally came back to see if they had gotten the balance right with lrms and direct fire. If i gauge they didn't I'll just go back to one of my twtich games. I know the typical troll response is so what don't let the door hit you.lol
But that just kills games.

I've played this game through super swings in lrm balance from lurmaghedon to them being nerfed to absolute uselessness. And imo if you're getting lrmed, with lrms as they are now, you are camping or just plain bad at the game.

Does anyone know the current dmg value of lrms? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Do the devs still share balancing stats?
And who is DATA and what is his video?

[pattonesque]

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 01:55 PM, said:

And who is DATA and what is his video?

this one:



just an example of how, with excellent coordination in the right map, LRMs can put out incredible amounts of damage very quickly

[Nightcrept]

Comps vs pugs.

I don't think there's anyway to balance the game in such away that all weapon systems will be perfectly balanced for both comp play and pug play.

That said, the video shows what is most likely the all out max performance for lrms if a team goes full in lrming. That can't be what the top tier teams play is it?

[MyriadDigits]

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

Most new players join because mechwarrior offers more than just twitch warfare. I mean lets face it if you want twitch there are better games for that.

Aiming in general =/= twitch aim or twitch shooting. The game, quite frankly, is far to slow to be considered a twitch shooter, even in a MASC Flea knife fight its still massively slower than any actual twitch shooter and nobody is looking to change that.

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 01:55 PM, said:

Does anyone know the current dmg value of lrms? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html

https://mech.nav-alpha.com/

The first link has spreadsheets of various weapon stats, the second is an up-to-date online mechlab tool that provides quite a few stats on mech performance, such as Average/Sustained DPS and Max DPS.

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 02:53 PM, said:

Comps vs pugs.

I don't think there's anyway to balance the game in such away that all weapon systems will be perfectly balanced for both comp play and pug play.

Good thing Cauldron is balancing for pug play first then, despite all the tin foil hats out there claiming otherwise. Cauldron members have stated such on multiple occasions.

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 02:53 PM, said:

That said, the video shows what is most likely the all out max performance for lrms if a team goes full in lrming. That can't be what the top tier teams play is it?

Div A was the highest skill division in that tournament. That was a Div A battle.

Edited by MyriadDigits, 04 August 2021 - 03:03 PM.

[John Bronco]

Nightcrept, on 04 August 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

And lrms etc are what separates mechwarrior from the other twitch games. SO making them nonviable hurts player retention in the long run as it removes a major part of the game.

I'd say the slower overall rate of play, the massive customization of the mechlab, and having 8 hitboxes per mech are what gives MW it's distinction. Has nothing to do with lock-on weapons. Anyway nobody is talking about making them non-viable, and I'm glad to see the consensus here seems to be that LRMs are in a decent place as is.

[The6thMessenger]

I think they are in the best place since ever with the Dual-Arc system, since you can do rather well when you ge your own locks.

Of course I haven't played in months, so take that with a grain of salt.

Moldur, on 31 July 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

I'd love to have them be more consistent without being too powerful, but I can't think of an elegant solution.

Make them IDF only with spotting tools like NARC and TAG, then you can buff the DF use to compensate.

That means background-lurmers are now forced to get their own locks regardless, and there's no second guessing whether your team could support IDF, because they will show up with TAGs and NARCs if they do.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 August 2021 - 04:48 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

for the most heavily countered weapon system in the game i just don't get the hate. not only are they countered by AMS and ECM but require you to sit exposed for a good amount of time to get a lock (in the current state tat usually means death pretty quick). now with IDF you have some mitigation but folks rarely stay visible long enough to get more than one or two volleys off before either the UAV is shot down or LOS is broke with the spotting mech (this can also be the LRM boat). not to mention the spread of the damage. its been my experience that it almost seems to equally spread damage over all components that the angle of attack would allow. yes you can get high damage numbers with good teamwork but even in games where i break 1k dmg i might get 1 or 2 kills a solo and a couple KMDD (and thats just from shear mass of spread damage). i think the reason it seems like legs get hit more is because a lot of people strip a bit of armor off them if the need that little bit of extra tonnage, that and the rear hit box is the same as the front so it doesn't matter where on the leg you hit. same goes for arms (though mostly people max armor on any arm with something in it and strip an empty arm.)

honestly if you find yourself contently dying from LRMs then 1 use AMS and or ECM, 2 rethink you possitioning with cover in mind or 3 you just got unlucky it happens. if you don't want LRMs in the game go play something else i am tired of dealing with stupid.

and as for the "LRM are no skill weapons" i beg to differ. do locking weapons require less skill than some other weapons yes but they do require some skill, situational awareness, map memorization, and knowing when to fire and at what target. if you find there is an AMS corsair with the main group go for the outliers. LRM are also sort of a strategic support weapon. even if 90% of you volley is eaten up by enemy AMS you will still often force an enemy to back off or seek cover taking them out of the firing line especially when its IDF since the target can't return fire to deal with the problem. hell you can even use them for AMS spotting (fire a single launcher off where you think the enemy might be and watch for the AMS to give their location away)

i feel there is a place in the game for every weapon system from micro smalls to ER PPC, from the AC/20 to the humble and annoying in mass AC/2, the SRM to yes the much debated LRM. this game has a plethora of weapon systems each filling its own role and usage. they are an integral part of the Lore and the universe of Battletech. not everyone is an uber meta try hard, many of use just want a relaxing game of shooting big stompy robots with a bunch of other folks. (hell if MW5 wasn't so shallow and boring after a while, let alone the horrendous friendly AI i would likely have given up on MWO for it.) the fact that Solaris failed so hard is testament to the fact that the majority of MWO players are casual folks. (hell i hardly play at all unless there is an event going on and even then i only play a few hours or a dozen or so games before i quit for the day. you can only get stomped so many times due to the almost worthless state of the current MM before you just give up for the day)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 04 August 2021 - 06:33 PM.

[Dogstar]

Windscape, on 04 August 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Weapons that require skill are more rewarding which results in an increase in retention. When someone is killed by a weapon system that requires little to no skill, player retention will decrease.

IMO, Lrms need flat out DPS reduction (DATA's video is proof) but more spread when fired indirectly and velocity decreases will also benefit people that are getting lrmed.

If you find the thread by Nightbird that talks about player retention you'll see that players with high win rates, which we have to assume correlate with high skill, are the second least retained group. High skill requirements do not aid retention.

Secondly, that video from DATA is one of the most cherry-picked instances of LRM use ever, and using it as any form of 'proof' is about as honest as watering my boots and telling me it's raining.

DPS from LRMs is in a pretty good place right now, as a number of people have said it's the lock-on mechanism that's unfun.

[1453 R]

The issue, Windstar, is that in your world where direct-fire "Tru Hi SKIL" weapons are just flat-out better in every respect than LRMs...what is the point of LRMs' existence? Why have the weapon in the game?

LRMs in MWO introduce a dimension of conflict that requires players to think beyond simple direct sightlines and head-on gunfights. Knowing where to be and what to do to launch effective missile volleys is also a skill, as is knowing where to be and what to do to minimize being damaged by LRM fire. The existence of indirect damage sources forces players to engage differently, broadening the overall experience. Notice that even popular twitch-aim shooters never get rid of grenades no matter how much their player bases carp about grenades being 'low-skill free kill dumb noob blammos', simply because grenades serve a similar purpose in those games to LRMs in this one.

Saying "Lasers take more SKIL than LRMs and so LRMs should be actively balanced to be total noob traps" is ridiculous for many, many reasons. Please don't say that.

[John Bronco]

1453 R, on 05 August 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

LRMs in MWO introduce a dimension of conflict that requires players to think beyond simple direct sightlines and head-on gunfights. Knowing where to be and what to do to launch effective missile volleys is also a skill, as is knowing where to be and what to do to minimize being damaged by LRM fire. The existence of indirect damage sources forces players to engage differently, broadening the overall experience. Notice that even popular twitch-aim shooters never get rid of grenades no matter how much their player bases carp about grenades being 'low-skill free kill dumb noob blammos', simply because grenades serve a similar purpose in those games to LRMs in this one.

No they don't. The cover I use to avoid LRM fire is no different than the cover I use to avoid direct fire.

Grenades in this game are arty/air strikes, which are for getting people to move out of an area, or to prevent them from moving in.

But I agree most games have some sort of a noobtube to give lower skill players something to boost their skill floor. I just don't think the implementation of LRMs in MWO adds anything good to the game.

[FinnMcKool]

This is supposed to be a Team game , yes QP is with people you don't know and if your in a group on discord or what not you are at a little bit of an advantage.

Team

people don't like to work with others often , they compete with their own team often , even work against them sometimes

Lurms do need the team to be most effective , Lurms are not as easy as the people who hate them will say, That being said they are in a good place right now.

I say that as one who plays with and against them, not as some one who wants every one to play my way and I dont want anyone to think Im some how better that anyone else.


but they are changing everything so we will need to wait and see what they do


there are a lot of people who think skill is only what they can do good and if others do something else good they just cant handle it,, To bad