117 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

Curccu, on 19 August 2021 - 06:40 AM, said:

LRM lights are ****, but have to strongly disagree with LRM mediums. Those can really hurt and because of their mobility they can get into good firing position and will not get overrun so easily, Really IMO maybe the best option for QP if you really wanna play LRMs..

I have to go with this too, there are a fair number of missile boat medium chassis - Trebuchets and Dervishes readily spring to mind - that can put out respectable LRM boats while having that mobility advantage over most heavy and assault missile boats - when was the last time you heard someone in a medium complain about getting ambushed by lights?

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Curccu, on 19 August 2021 - 06:40 AM, said:

What a we some? The bestests LRM assault in whole game IMO is missing from that list.

It wasn't a list of best LRM mechs, it was a list of (heavy and assault) missile mechs without energy hardpoints (you know, chassis that would be nerfed by making TAG a requirement for LRMs). Though the omnimechs can trade in set-of-8 bonuses for TAG, I suppose.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 19 August 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

It wasn't a list of best LRM mechs, it was a list of (heavy and assault) missile mechs without energy hardpoints (you know, chassis that would be nerfed by making TAG a requirement for LRMs). Though the omnimechs can trade in set-of-8 bonuses for TAG, I suppose.

I have difficulties understanding the issue. TAG doesn't benefit the wearer beyond punching through ECM cover. And because of its beam nature, any LRM boat effectively using TAG can not be an IDF LRM boat. ECM is a common sight on today's MWO battlefields, so any dedicated lock-on boat not using TAG is shooting itself in the foot actually and while shooting yourself with min range missiles isn't a huge problem, you're still a dead weight and a liability for your team. Lock-on times on IDF targets under ECM coverage are huge, so I think with the last rework to lock-on weapons in general and LRMs in particular

Bamboozle Gold, on 19 August 2021 - 01:33 AM, said:

For this the fix would be to add a lot of inaccuracy for indirect fire missiles or when you haven't acquired the lock yourself. In my opinion running a TAG should be almost necessary so you have to have that face time when you're boating LRMs.

has been achieved.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 19 August 2021 - 10:00 PM, said:

TAG doesn't benefit the wearer beyond punching through ECM cover.

Quite literally the second post you quoted there (you know, the thing you said 'has been achieved') was talking about making it mandatory for LRMboats to bring along their own TAGs. I don't know, but 'making your kit not useless' sounds like a benefit to me.

I don't even know why I'm being replied to, all I did was clarify why a certain list of mechs was listed. I wouldn't mind if direct-fire locks could be tightened up a bit though, with or without TAG.

Aidan Crenshaw, on 19 August 2021 - 10:00 PM, said:

I have difficulties understanding the issue.

Mmhmm.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 19 August 2021 - 10:24 PM, said:

I don't even know why I'm being replied to, all I did was clarify why a certain list of mechs was listed. I wouldn't mind if direct-fire locks could be tightened up a bit though, with or without TAG.

Your post just happened to conveniently summarize. My point is that I don't think you can make TAG any more mandatory on a dedicated lock-on boat than it already is. This is more a reply to Bamboozle Gold than to you, actually. I'm sorry if this caused confusion.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

S'all good.

[Curccu]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 19 August 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

It wasn't a list of best LRM mechs, it was a list of (heavy and assault) missile mechs without energy hardpoints (you know, chassis that would be nerfed by making TAG a requirement for LRMs). Though the omnimechs can trade in set-of-8 bonuses for TAG, I suppose.

Oh yeah, looks like that I skimmed that long'ish post bit too fast... my bad.


Heavies and Assaults with multiple missile slots only can take Narc instead of TAG, but that requires too much skill to hit with that for average lurmer I think.

[1453 R]

Here's the thing.

Y'all want LRM boats to have to use direct fire more often, make indirect fire painful and annoying in order to encourage direct-fire LRM attacks. generally so "LRM boats have to share armor and participate in the fight with everybody else."

Okay. Sure. Then you have to make direct-fire LRMs, and direct-fire ATMs for that matter, competitive with direct-fire ballistic and energy weaponry.

"WHAT?!", says the MWO Idjit. "WHY?! They get access to indirect fire! My gauss rifle can't IDF! Why should the LRM guy be just as good in a direct firefight as my gauss 'Mech?!"

...because you're effectively forcing the LRM guy into a direct-fire contest. One in which he has no ability to twist, evade, or otherwise defend himself because there's 12+ seconds between him pulling the trigger and his damage arriving on target, during which time he has to stare at you relentlessly. if LRMs are unusable in that context, and you're working to make them all but unusable in an indirect-fire context, where are LRMs supposed to be useable?

"DUHHHHH!!!" the MWO Idjit screeches back. "They're okay at direct-fire if they use Artemis and TAG and NARC and skilltree nodes and all this other stuff! An LRM boat should have to spend all kinds of extra tonnage and hardpoints on this stuff if they wanna not suck at direct-fire, because then if they spend that tonnage they're encouraged to use direct fire more!"

Okay. Tell me - how would you feel if you had to spend 5+ tons on ancillary equipment just to make your principle weapons usable? If there was a half-ton gun that every single 'Mech in the game could equip that cut heavily into your damage? If your weapons were just as heavy, bulky, and cumbersome as large-bore ballistics, but did half the damage at as fraction of the DPS without any of the defensive ability?

"Man, STOP IT!", the MWO Idjit counters. "How the hell would YOU make LRM boats share their armor and fight with the rest of the group, then?! How would YOU work the balance so that they stopped doing that stupid awful terrible indirect fire thing everybody hates so much and fight on the frontline like a REAL MAN, HUH?!"

I already told you, MWO Idjit. Make LRMs more-or-less competitive with other direct-fire weaponry. Primarily my goal would be to eliminate the need to retain lock. Once you achieve lock and fire, the missiles are locked and stay that way until they hit something or time out. You're already well behind the curve needing to lock in the first place - an Alfalpha Spike build could deal 50+ damage to you very easily before you have the chance to lock and fire. Missiles are slow, easy to dodge, and hard-countered by AMS and Stealth Armor already. Eliminate the need to maintain lock, and possibly increase the cycle rate on the launchers so they have better DPS.

Make it such that an LRM machine can fight reasonably fairly in a direct-fire contest, or no amount of butchering indirect fire will get LRM folks to abandon indirect fire. Because direct firefights get them killed without mercy. LRM pilots favor indirect fire attacks whenever possible right now because favoring direct-fire attacks makes them worse at fighting than every other build in the game. It may sound unintuitive to let LRMs be reasonably competitive with direct-fire-only weapons in direct fire mode, but you'll never get LRM players to "fight fair" until you make it actually fair for them to do so. Especially the Inner Sphere's massively pudgy, overweight, nonsensically godawful LRM launchers.

[Bamboozle Gold]

1453 R, on 20 August 2021 - 09:15 AM, said:

Okay. Sure. Then you have to make direct-fire LRMs, and direct-fire ATMs for that matter, competitive with direct-fire ballistic and energy weaponry.

Very interesting post!

Let's look at some numbers. For a template I used CP-11-A with STD400 engine and nothing else.
LRM40+A with 960 damage points worth of ammo weighs 26 tons. It delivers 40 inaccurate alpha and 5.2, 9.30 (average, max) DPS.
LBX5x3 with 960 damage points worth of ammo weighs 29.5 tons. It delivers 15 inaccurate-ish alpha and 7.0, 9.04 (average, max) DPS.
LXB10x2 with 920 damage points worth of ammo weighs 26 tons. It delivers 20 inaccurate-ish alpha and 7.00, 8.89 (average, max) DPS.

All the other ballistics have less DPS or weigh more. So numerically those are pretty even. LRM has more burst damage and higher alpha but less average DPS.

Of course the issue with LRMs, direct fire or not, is AMS cutting the damage and lock-on taking time. Based on this it looks like direct fire missiles could be buffed a bit, you're right!

[1453 R]

The LB-X builds can also utilize defensive twisting to improve their survivability without losing much damage. An LRM machine not only has to maintain lock to maintain their DPS, they can actively lose damage they've already fired by being forced to break lock in mid missile flight to twist. An autocannon 'Mech can shoot, then maneuver and hide - an LRM machine has to stare unflinchingly at a target for 12+ seconds to try and ensure that even a single shot lands.

Missiles are an absolute disaster in a direct firefight because you're giving your target your nose for free - and as you point out, ballistic builds with roughly equivalent DPS for the weight can just lollerskates all over you. To say nothing of alpha-heavy builds like Laservomit that can spike you, then move into cover and cool off before your first flight of missiles even reaches them. Missile velocity for lock-on missiles can be described as "that guy from Pixar's Up movie trying to train carrier pigeons to drop explosives on your enemy for you", and since you have to maintain lock the whole-*** time, direct-fire superspike builds can eat your lunch for free.

The only time direct-fire LRMs, or ATMs in general, are a problem is when the superspike build you're targeting is shooting at somebody else and you're delivering free damage. Which, as I've said before many times, doesn't count - everything is Grade-S Excellent if it gets to shoot at the enemy without the enemy shooting back. You have to assume that whatever the missile carrier is targeting is targeting the missile carrier right back, and frankly? No amount of DPS or DPT comparisons are going to convince anybody who's played this game for seven consecutive minutes that direct-fire superspike builds don't beat lock-on missile builds for free in a trade situation. To say nothing of DPS monsters like the Dakka Muck-Tew or literally anything with rotary autocannons, even before you take AMS into account.

[Curccu]

Where do you get that 12+ seconds? lock-on+flight time? Can't find how long lock on takes with quick googling but velocity is with skilltree 241,5 m/s so takes 4,14 seconds to fly 1km, lock-on shouldn't take 8+ seconds?

[Kroete]

Curccu, on 20 August 2021 - 06:12 AM, said:

Oh yeah, looks like that I skimmed that long'ish post bit too fast... my bad.


Heavies and Assaults with multiple missile slots only can take Narc instead of TAG, but that requires too much skill to hit with that for average lurmer I think.

At what range get a narc beacon destroyed against 1, 2, 3 or more ams?
Did the narc beacon speed or hitpoints get chaged as the ams were buffed?
Should a lrm boat hug the enemy?

[Curccu]

Kroete, on 20 August 2021 - 02:49 PM, said:

At what range get a narc beacon destroyed against 1, 2, 3 or more ams?
Did the narc beacon speed or hitpoints get chaged as the ams were buffed?
Should a lrm boat hug the enemy?

Why would you ever hug enemy in LRM boat?

[Kroete]

Curccu, on 20 August 2021 - 11:35 PM, said:

Why would you ever hug enemy in LRM boat?

Maybe read the 2 questions above?

You suggest to take a narc as lrm boat,
if you want to use it against more then 2 ams,
you need to hug your enemy.

The narc-beacon needs more hp and maybe a little more speed to use it without hugging the enemy against that much ams on the field.

Edited by Kroete, 21 August 2021 - 12:49 AM.

[Dogstar]

1453 R, on 20 August 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

The LB-X builds can also utilize defensive twisting to improve their survivability without losing much damage. An LRM machine not only has to maintain lock to maintain their DPS, they can actively lose damage they've already fired by being forced to break lock in mid missile flight to twist. An autocannon 'Mech can shoot, then maneuver and hide - an LRM machine has to stare unflinchingly at a target for 12+ seconds to try and ensure that even a single shot lands.

This, so much this. Everyone who goes on about lock-on weapons being 'easy-mode' or 'unskilled' should be made to run a streak only boat for six games to understand just how debilitating being required to directly face your target all the time is.

[Curccu]

Kroete, on 21 August 2021 - 12:45 AM, said:

Maybe read the 2 questions above?

You suggest to take a narc as lrm boat,
if you want to use it against more then 2 ams,
you need to hug your enemy.

The narc-beacon needs more hp and maybe a little more speed to use it without hugging the enemy against that much ams on the field.

I did suggest on taking narc if there is some reason that someone just have to pick missile boat without energy slot and also play it with LRMs. It's like 2nd best option after tag and some scenarios might be even better option, who knows how many AMS there is or isn't in QP match.

But still hugging an enemy with LRM boat to get that narc through would be suicide hence why I asked why would you ever do that? Shoot something else, dumpfire missiles on it or run away... anything and everything is better option than hugging that enemy to get that narc in and then do nothing because of min range and dying.

Dogstar, on 21 August 2021 - 01:03 AM, said:

This, so much this. Everyone who goes on about lock-on weapons being 'easy-mode' or 'unskilled' should be made to run a streak only boat for six games to understand just how debilitating being required to directly face your target all the time is.

I think most of the people have tried that sometimes.
Pir-1 vs streak boat on open ground is pretty eez-mod and doesn't require much skill though.

Streaks were banned in MRBC drop 1 (4 lights and 4 mediums mechs, domination game mode) for that reason.

Bigger problem is also against anything with loads of health, streaks don't have awesome dps and it spreads pretty evenly, so that is biggest issue of streaks as primary/boated weapon IMO.
Try taking down that atlas-D in training grounds with streaks, takes a while.