29 replies to this topic

[Clint Steel]

When you lose your side torso, particularly in clan mechs, you lose a lot of heat capacity. This is fine. However, currently the heat that was stored in the destroyed side torso doesn't go away. This often causes shutdowns, or overheat death, if override is on.

This is neither logical, or fun .

Whatever heat was stored in the side torso should be lost, since those hot bits of metal were jettisoned from your mech. Not unlike an expensive coolshot.

In practice, it could be as simple as leaving the "used heat percentage" the same when the new heat capacity is calculated.

Examples(basic) of mech in battle with 50 heat capacity who is at 80% of their max heat:

--Current System--
Heat Capacity of Mech = 50
Used Heat Percentage = (80% of 50) = 40
SIDE TORSO is DESTROYED
Heat Capacity after lose = 35
Used Heat Percentage (114% of 35) = 40 (shuts down due to over heat)


--Suggested- -
Heat Capacity of Mech = 50
Used Heat Percentage = (80% of 50) = 40
SIDE TORSO is DESTROYED
Heat Capacity after lose = 35
Used Heat Percentage (80% of 35) = 28

If they wanted to be fancy they could figure out the exact amount of the heat was sunk into the destroyed side torso and calculate based on that, but I suspect the end result wouldn't be significant enough to worry about.

[FupDup]

This was an intentional design choice by PGI to nerf Clan XL and IS LFE engines in an attempt to make more people use IS XL and STD engines. Chris has expressed a desire to try to find some other way to balance the engines but they haven't figured something out yet and they don't have the resources to do anything even if they did figure something out.

Just gotta deal with it for the foreseeable future.

[Wid1046]

FupDup, on 01 August 2021 - 01:18 PM, said:

This was an intentional design choice by PGI to nerf Clan XL and IS LFE engines in an attempt to make more people use IS XL and STD engines. Chris has expressed a desire to try to find some other way to balance the engines but they haven't figured something out yet and they don't have the resources to do anything even if they did figure something out.

Just gotta deal with it for the foreseeable future.

For some reason, hearing that Chris was involved in the decision seems to make so much sense.

[justcallme A S H]

FupDup, on 01 August 2021 - 01:18 PM, said:

This was an intentional design choice by PGI to nerf Clan XL and IS LFE engines in an attempt to make more people use IS XL and STD engines. Chris has expressed a desire to try to find some other way to balance the engines but they haven't figured something out yet and they don't have the resources to do anything even if they did figure something out.

Just gotta deal with it for the foreseeable future.

I believe it was also to chase the elusive Heat Bug, given no one knows how/where it comes from.

When it did not fix the bug (it was seen like 4-6 weeks post patch), the change should have been immediately removed.

[RickySpanish]

justcallme A S H, on 01 August 2021 - 07:43 PM, said:

I believe it was also to chase the elusive Heat Bug, given no one knows how/where it comes from.

When it did not fix the bug (it was seen like 4-6 weeks post patch), the change should have been immediately removed.

Oh we definitely know where it comes from - pish code. Har har har!

[PocketYoda]

I never use IS XLs ever i even avoid them on lights.. such a stupid mechanic to blow off a shoulder and die.. I'm not even sure tabletop was that bad but its been a while.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

MechaGnome, on 01 August 2021 - 09:04 PM, said:

I never use IS XLs ever i even avoid them on lights.. such a stupid mechanic to blow off a shoulder and die.. I'm not even sure tabletop was that bad but its been a while.

It was even worse, because 3 engine crits, no matter if CT or ST would always destroy your engine.

[Nightbird]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 01 August 2021 - 09:41 PM, said:

It was even worse, because 3 engine crits, no matter if CT or ST would always destroy your engine.

TT has random damage location, so by the time you have 3 crits on your engine, your armor is gone everywhere else.

[Castigatus]

MechaGnome, on 01 August 2021 - 09:04 PM, said:

I never use IS XLs ever I even avoid them on lights.. such a stupid mechanic to blow off a shoulder and die. I'm not even sure tabletop was that bad but it's been a while.

You can get away with them on very specific mechs with tiny side torsos, the Urbanmech being a good example, but even there I would normally avoid using them due to the whole 'one unlucky hit takes you out cold' phenomenon and if I get one on a new mech I'll usually strip it out and sell it off to help pay for the refit. If I want weight savings in my engine I'll just use an LFE tbh.

[R Valentine]

It was always a dumb mechanic that everyone hates. I've never subscribed to the notion that there is no penalty fitting the clan XL or the IS LFE engine. Loss of heat dissipation aside, 2 slots on both shoulders is no small amount of critical space. Some weapon systems automatically become un-fittable based on engine choice alone, like HGR and LB20X, or a combination of weapon systems like 2x LB10X or dual cGauss. It also limits your ability to carry heat sinks and fit other weight saving upgrades like Endo-steel and Ferro-fibrous, which also reduce your critical space. The clan XL and the IS LFE gives you additional options in the realm of weight vs. critical space, but they were never free.

[Clint Steel]

FupDup, on 01 August 2021 - 01:18 PM, said:

This was an intentional design choice by PGI to nerf Clan XL and IS LFE engines in an attempt to make more people use IS XL and STD engines. Chris has expressed a desire to try to find some other way to balance the engines but they haven't figured something out yet and they don't have the resources to do anything even if they did figure something out.

Just gotta deal with it for the foreseeable future.

Huh, seems like losing the heatsinks and speed would be enough, on top of the used up slots that they take. Do people need to take the Standard or XL engines anyway? I still use them in a few Mechs, though admittedly not many.

Is PGI that strapped that they can not even make small alterations now?

[Monkey Lover]

I hate side torso magic heat more than anything in the game right now.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 02 August 2021 - 02:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Clint Steel, on 02 August 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

Huh, seems like losing the heatsinks and speed would be enough, on top of the used up slots that they take. Do people need to take the Standard or XL engines anyway? I still use them in a few Mechs, though admittedly not many.

Is PGI that strapped that they can not even make small alterations now?

In their defense, altering engine mechanics seems to be something hard-wired "deep" into the game rather than something that can be XML tweaked. At least, I've never been able to find engine penalties in the XML files (the only mention is "sides to die" in Engines.XML).

[Mochyn Pupur]

Std engines still on some IS and Clan Assaults dependent on the load out or robustness.

[Monkey Lover]

PeppaPig, on 02 August 2021 - 02:12 PM, said:

Std engines still on some IS and Clan Assaults dependent on the load out or robustness.

Only thing I see std useful for is when you want the extra slot for example to use dual heavy gauss.Thats not even a good reason . I just run it for fun as its still a bad build.

I love to see 20+% more internal to use std.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 02 August 2021 - 02:21 PM.

[Bennesto]

Monkey Lover, on 02 August 2021 - 02:10 PM, said:

I hate side torso magic heat more than anything in the game right now.

I second this notion. I use IS XL on alot of Mechs, even on my Yen Lo Wang bc some chassis need the extra tonnage to become semi-viable interms of weaponsloadout and heat management. Losing a ST w/ LFE is just the same now as having a XL equipped, you just die hearing toasting sounds while wondering who in their right minds thought this would be a good and balanced gamedesign choice. I just wished LFE would have gotten the treatment of cXL before "ST Magic Heat", with giving a penality to heat and mobility and not to make you go boom bc reasons.

[The Basilisk]

Nightbird, on 01 August 2021 - 09:50 PM, said:

TT has random damage location, so by the time you have 3 crits on your engine, your armor is gone everywhere else.

Actually this isn't quite true. Especially when fighting against mechs with lots of LRM and SRMs or worse multi smal weaponscarriers or LBX you could get easiely get taken out of the game by through armor crits.
Atlas, Marauder II, Grand Titan, Pillager or other highly armored Assaults where often taken out by through armor crits that either fired their Reactors or set of their Gauss or Ammo bins and they went out of the Game with near intact armor.
Also that your Engine is "destoyed" when your side torso is taken out on an XL Mech, is not true in Tabletop.
While the mech is indeed disabled for this fight because it gets emergency shutdown, it is one of the few occasions in capaign fights where you could salvage a mech near intact. You just have to repair the engines shielding and heatsinks.

But yes when you look at it from a "suicide ahoi only this fight matters" perspective XL engines where a big disadvantage because they often reduced the mechs time in a fight.
But since normal Battletech sessions, as I know them, rarely ended with more than 1 or two mechs out of a company beeing actually destroyed (most just lost their weapons, got their pilots killed or got immobilized by leggshots) the realy ridiculous thing is how MWO handles things.

[Nightbird]

The Basilisk, on 03 August 2021 - 01:58 AM, said:

Actually this isn't quite true. Especially when fighting against mechs with lots of LRM and SRMs or worse multi smal weaponscarriers or LBX you could get easiely get taken out of the game by through armor crits.
Atlas, Marauder II, Grand Titan, Pillager or other highly armored Assaults where often taken out by through armor crits that either fired their Reactors or set of their Gauss or Ammo bins and they went out of the Game with near intact armor.
Also that your Engine is "destoyed" when your side torso is taken out on an XL Mech, is not true in Tabletop.
While the mech is indeed disabled for this fight because it gets emergency shutdown, it is one of the few occasions in capaign fights where you could salvage a mech near intact. You just have to repair the engines shielding and heatsinks.

But yes when you look at it from a "suicide ahoi only this fight matters" perspective XL engines where a big disadvantage because they often reduced the mechs time in a fight.
But since normal Battletech sessions, as I know them, rarely ended with more than 1 or two mechs out of a company beeing actually destroyed (most just lost their weapons, got their pilots killed or got immobilized by leggshots) the realy ridiculous thing is how MWO handles things.

You play with through armor crits? My condolences.

[Clint Steel]

FupDup, on 02 August 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

In their defense, altering engine mechanics seems to be something hard-wired "deep" into the game rather than something that can be XML tweaked. At least, I've never been able to find engine penalties in the XML files (the only mention is "sides to die" in Engines.XML).

Ah, that is unfortunate. Was hoping it would have been just an easy tweak to test.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Sad that this is Chris' legacy.

"He got Chris'ed" when the Warhammer IIC loses a side torso and shuts down or instantly dies.

Thanks bear_cl4w, made me smile after the required curse and spit.

Like the rest of his un-funning, this should be next on the list of nerfs to remove and revert.