36 replies to this topic

[Hierarch]

Light PPC's seem overtuned right now. Especially with every single light mech out there running 3 of them it's kind of silly.

Why did they remove their minimum range? I think it was a decent balance that allowed other weapon types the chance at competing against them.

[justcallme A S H]

From the patch notes

https://mwomercs.com...0-20-july-2021/

Quote

IS Light PPC:
Damage increased to 5.5 (from 5)
While the light PPC changes made in April made them viable complimentary weapons for various ballistic focused configurations, The weapon on its own is observed to be lacking in damage output compared to other alternatives. In this patch, an increase in raw damage is introduced to further improve upon the effectiveness of LPPC focused mechs.

IS PPC:
Introduced exponential damage fall off curve instead of min-range (similar to Clan LRMs)
Being heavily sandwiched between the Light and Heavy PPCs, the performance of the standard PPCs since April has been monitored in the past couple months. As a first step towards giving it a unique characteristic and meaningful trade-offs versus light and heavy versions, minimum range has been removed and is replaced by an exponential damage fall off. This Will give PPC focused builds more versatility.

Overall LPPC are not overturned I don't think. To make up even 600dmg takes a considerably high amount firing time as Cauldron have tested quite extensively.

[Hierarch]

I'm not sure what sort of metric that is. But a 600 damage game om a 3 ton weapon should be impossible, but when even a spider can stack 3 of them it gets crazy dps

[justcallme A S H]

Well that is using 3-4 of them so closer to 9-12T plus JJ, DHS etc on a liight etc

[Curccu]

Hierarch, on 27 August 2021 - 09:10 PM, said:

I'm not sure what sort of metric that is. But a 600 damage game om a 3 ton weapon should be impossible, but when even a spider can stack 3 of them it gets crazy dps

You can put 6x Small laser on locust and do 600 damage in less than 1.5 minutes, swap those small lasers to a single light ppc (same weight) and you do less than 150 damage.

Take 3x light ppc which weight 3 times more than those 6 small lasers and still you cannot get even close to same kind of dps as those SL and we are talking about burst dps not light mech sustained DPS which is pretty damn bad.

Doesn't seem that OP to me.

[Hierarch]

justcallme A S H, on 27 August 2021 - 11:07 PM, said:

Well that is using 3-4 of them so closer to 9-12T plus JJ, DHS etc on a liight etc

If that's the case then seems a little *****, with trip LPPC you only need to land 40 shots so 40 times 3 = 2 minutes that's obviously optimal base line firing.

Compare that to the base line PPC, PPC deals less damage is a ton more, same range, has near range drop off and a longer cool down.
Compare that to the LPL which does the same damage is a ton more weight and has less range

I don't know why we're factoring in JJ's but my spider build fits 3 LPPC's JJ's and heatsinks in with max engine.

If I have to explain the major weaknesses of Small Lasers, I'll just assume you're trolling.

Edited by Hierarch, 27 August 2021 - 11:59 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

the only light mech i run is the Urbie but i do have an Urdie that runs 3 LPPs and 3 Mgs with a big enough engine i think it runs at 101 kph and enough cooling to do the job. (i simply call it the "Annoyance Urbie")

i find the a nice alternative to other weapons for the increase in range over say MLs. though you do need to invest in more hard points as well as crit space and tonage over the ML (though still better in a pair than a single regular PPC)

i actually think they are well balanced.

[IronWolfPack64]

Light PPCs are very balanced in terms of tonnage/range/damage

More tonnage than a Med pulse and less damage but they get more range and slightly more pinpoint. Right now light PPCs are a B+ to A Tier supplementary weapons system but don’t get it mixed up. If you are running them as a primary weapon system in anything over 50 tons…….. you are doing it wrong. They are a nice mid wait to bump alpha strike damage on heavy energy boats and a solid supplement to work in tandem with ballistics build. They are however not OP.

[Steve Pryde]

Light ppcs should go back to 5 dmg imo, especially when you compare them with normal ppcs. why should you take normal ppcs with minimum range, higher cd and more tonnage over light ppcs? At least put back light ppcs to 5 dmg and remove the minimum range from normal ppcs completely and it seems fine to me.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 28 August 2021 - 04:31 AM.

[doctormanuse]

The reason you take PPC instead of LPPC is that you can alpha 3 of them. If you can afford the weigth, this gives you 30 dmg pin point versus 16,5. I think the exponential minimum range for normal PPC was a good move and follows a logic: LPPC no min range, PPC exponential min range, HPPC "hard" min range.

[VeeOt Dragon]

keep in mind that 1 extra point of damage when running two LPPCs instead of a single normal PPC costs you an additional energy slot as well as i think 1 additional crit slot. so there is a bit of a trade-off for that extra point of damage. also keep in mind the HSL for PPCs being i think 3 for PPC and LPPC so 2 normal PPC would still do better heat to damage wise than 4 LPPC even with the added .5 damage per LPPC. i think this is enough to keep the weapon well balanced and worth taking. it used to be that you almost never even saw LPPC because it just wasn't worth taking over other options.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 28 August 2021 - 08:43 AM.

[IronWolfPack64]

Steve Pryde, on 28 August 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

Light ppcs should go back to 5 dmg imo, especially when you compare them with normal ppcs. why should you take normal ppcs with minimum range, higher cd and more tonnage over light ppcs? At least put back light ppcs to 5 dmg and remove the minimum range from normal ppcs completely and it seems fine to me.

Alpha strike damage

[justcallme A S H]

Hierarch, on 27 August 2021 - 11:57 PM, said:

Compare that to the base line PPC, PPC deals less damage is a ton more, same range, has near range drop off and a longer cool down.

You missed a sizeable part... The extra 1 damage (so 2 x LPPC over 1 PPC) costs you 1 crit slot despite that 1T saving.. You want 2 damage, 2 more crit slots and so it goes.

IS mechs are already heavily slot limited with their 3-slot DHS as it is so it is a balance of what you want.

Take a 3 LPPC Spider SDR-5D it's base DPS outside of anything else is 2.82... So ye, it does take a significant amount of time to accrue enough

Hierarch, on 27 August 2021 - 11:57 PM, said:

with trip LPPC you only need to land 40 shots so 40 times 3 = 2 minutes that's obviously optimal base line firing.

You numbers fail to take into account if the mech has JJs, its heat cap./.dissipation etc etc etc. etc etc.

And then lets also note in the entire history of Faction Play - never ever never ever ever has any mech been freely allowed to sit at 600m for 2mins and fire completely uninterrupted as soon as the weap[ons are off cooldown. That is just so unrealistic I don't where to start.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 August 2021 - 04:01 PM.

[Hierarch]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2021 - 02:57 PM, said:

You missed a sizeable part... The extra 1 damage (so 2 x LPPC over 1 PPC) costs you 1 crit slot despite that 1T saving.. You want 2 damage, 2 more crit slots and so it goes.

IS mechs are already heavily slot limited with their 3-slot DHS as it is so it is a balance of what you want.

Take a 3 LPPC Spider SDR-5D it's base DPS outside of anything else is 2.82... So ye, it does take a significant amount of time to accrue enough



You numbers fail to take into account if the mech has JJs, its heat cap./.dissipation etc etc etc. etc etc.

And then lets also note in the entire history of Faction Play - never ever never ever ever has any mech been freely allowed to sit at 600m for 2mins and fire completely uninterrupted as soon as the weap[ons are off cooldown. That is just so unrealistic I don't where to start.

Again you're going to have to give me a reason why we're factoring in Jump Jets with this, any mech using Jump jets is going to have jump jets with other weapon systems. I did account for the fact that, that was an unreal expectation on the firing side. However I have seen many battles that devolve to long range spam, I remember when CLAN ER-LARGES were very much meta. So I don't think the ranges are off. That being said the response there was to someone claiming getting 600 damage was nearly impossible. But even if you ballooned the time estimate by 5 times you still have plenty of time to get your 600 damage in and that's not counting the fact that you can start acting during the cool down. If your point is there are other weapon systems that can deal more damage, I'll remind you those weapon systems are significantly shorter range (Thus requiring a much more risk based play style), while LPPC's out damage(And out range in some instances) similar weapons by a decent margin something I don't think 1 crit spot makes up for, if this was accurate you would see light mechs running the regular ppc but you don't it's almost always the 3 LPPC. Don't see how heat dissipation is a factor in the LPPC's favor as the regular PPC generates more heat. If you can answer to any of these questions I would at least be able to understand your point, if not agree with it.

[GLaDOSauR]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

if this was accurate you would see light mechs running the regular ppc but you don't it's almost always the 3 LPPC. Don't see how heat dissipation is a factor in the LPPC's favor as the regular PPC generates more heat. If you can answer to any of these questions I would at least be able to understand your point, if not agree with it.

3 lppcs compared to 1 regular ppc: the lppcs weigh more, take up more hardpoints, more crit slots, and make more heat to deal 6 more damage per shot. Seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff. If the light was to mount 2 standard ppc, that would weigh 14 tons which because of the way engines scale and endo/ferro work with lights is usually slightly uncomfortable to fit, and would require sacrifices in areas that you don't have to give up when running 3lppc.

[Hierarch]

GLaDOSauR, on 29 August 2021 - 08:55 AM, said:

3 lppcs compared to 1 regular ppc: the lppcs weigh more, take up more hardpoints, more crit slots, and make more heat to deal 6 more damage per shot. Seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff. If the light was to mount 2 standard ppc, that would weigh 14 tons which because of the way engines scale and endo/ferro work with lights is usually slightly uncomfortable to fit, and would require sacrifices in areas that you don't have to give up when running 3lppc.

Hard Disagree, also you skirt around the point if the tradeoff was worth it you would see lights running a single PPC and a single Light PPC as opposed to all of them running 3 lppc.

[Ravni]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

Hard Disagree, also you skirt around the point if the tradeoff was worth it you would see lights running a single PPC and a single Light PPC as opposed to all of them running 3 lppc.

Panthers run 3LPPC, or 2LPPC+1PPC, or 1LPPC+2PPC depending on how mobile they want to be - and all three of those builds work very well IMO. Also 3 snubs, or 1LPPC + 2 Snubs, or 2ERPPC can also work. Panthers do them all well due to their tonnage & super quirks.

Most other IS lights simply don't have the available tonnage or they have extra hardpoints they need to fill out: i.e. Firestarter would rather have 3LPPC + 5SL rather than mix in a standard PPC or two.

[GLaDOSauR]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

Hard Disagree, also you skirt around the point if the tradeoff was worth it you would see lights running a single PPC and a single Light PPC as opposed to all of them running 3 lppc.

Running a single ppc and a single lppc is worse than 3 lppc because it costs an extra ton and the cooldowns don't sync up. Standard ppcs are more efficient on heavier mechs, lppcs are more efficient on lighter mechs. Makes sense to me.

You still haven't made it clear exactly what you think is op about lppcs though.

Edited by GLaDOSauR, 29 August 2021 - 12:21 PM.

[Hierarch]

GLaDOSauR, on 29 August 2021 - 12:19 PM, said:

Running a single ppc and a single lppc is worse than 3 lppc because it costs an extra ton and the cooldowns don't sync up. Standard ppcs are more efficient on heavier mechs, lppcs are more efficient on lighter mechs. Makes sense to me.

You still haven't made it clear exactly what you think is op about lppcs though.

I believe I had made it clear why I thought they are OP. They are lighter in equivalency to PPC's they do more damage then PPC's and they're cooler then PPC's. This makes little difference on heavy mechs, but on light mechs it makes a mile of difference. And it's not just PPC's they outclass they also outclass LPL, LL's and ERLL's. And I don't think taking up an extra slot or two makes up for any of this.

[Leone]

Just for your information, a light PPC does less damage than a PPC. 5.5 vs 10 to be exact.

~Leone.