101 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

HauptmanT, on 06 September 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

He's likely t4-t5. Those matches are not anything like "normal".

I've seen plenty of matches where half the team is up on the wall being a "sniper". Sometimes half their mech is MLs or SRMs too. It's a whole nother game in low tiers. And I love it.

Between my main and the Alt (which is T4)...

T4 definitely is not filled with wall snipers at all and the ones that are up there are generally not having any impact really other than being annoying. Especially firing AC10/UAC10s are 900m, such damage is completely ineffective so they kinda don't really matter.

They also don't stay up there for long in the lower tiers, which is where the majority of the population sits. Rarely takes long for low tier games to end up in a middle platform skirmish/brawl for the most part.

Again it's about what is actually happening and is it really an issue. I'm seeing a lot of bias statements that in all the games I play, I just never see happening on a regular basis.

MadHornet, on 06 September 2021 - 02:52 PM, said:

Spoiler

I see the biggest issue with HPG is the accessibility to the wall is simply too far away to be an effective means of dispatching the snipers. Takes too much time and team attention away from the main body of the enemy to deal with a wall sniper because the ramps are on the outside and easily a 1 - 1.5k meter trip to get around and on them, by which point your team is dying and they're just waiting for you to walk up. You could say "why not just let the lights deal with it?" yeah, that is if you have any on the team, and they manage to not get oneshot because of an extremely predictable and defendable rear ramp.

I cannot say in Tier 4 or Tier 1 I've not seen that in around 200 games now.

It does not take a Light or Fast med all that long to get around and up the rear ramps. A fast med can already be out the gates on the other side (and 3/4 the way to the ramps) before slower Assaults are even in position on the walls. I know because I'm constantly doing it and 120 km/h is enough to achieve it

I have not encountered once anyone looking at the ramps and waiting for the Light/Med to come running up. They are wall snipers, they are looking into the middle. Virtually every game is free rear-end shots.

[Mahpsy]

IMO something just needs to be done about missiles and sensors.

As of late I can't even justify bringing LRM's to any match. Just get out rotated, wolf packed, etc.

Holding a lock is next to impossible it seems like unless someone is charging in for a brawl.

That being said information sharing and missile lock on mechanics need a rework badly. Streaks take way to long and are inefficient to anything not a light. BUT hear me out. If we went down the road with MW LL and have individual lock on an individual basis unless the person has say a command computer, TAG, or NARC. Hell maybe it's even time to go more in-depth for the mechlab like the Battletech: Roguetech mod where you can change your cockpit sensors, targeting, etc. Yes it would be a lot of work, but if they really want to put an importance of information warfare this is the way to go.

[VeeOt Dragon]

the conversation on info warfare and LRM targeting has been beat to death. even as a Lore hound i couldn't justify having to carry a C3 to get target info from other mechs. mostly because no one would every actually use it (remember both the spotting mech and the LRM mech need to have the C3 for it to work. ) very few if anyone would give up even a single ton for a C3 in this game. i love MWO but everyone is just in it for themselves with little to know actual team play other than the odd shot call once in a long while. hell there is so much unwarented hate for locking weapon systems that they would actively avoid doing things that help the team in such a way. there is just way to much AMS/ECM around to do anything that nerfs locking weapons anymore than they are already hard countered.

this is a conversation for another thread though as this one is more for talking about long range build prevalence. (i like all weapon systems so i want everything to be effective in its own way, even the ones that i personally rarely use like UACs and anything with under 300m range)

[MrMadguy]

Unfortunately we've started this vicious cycle again. It was ok, when they fixed Polar, because it was done to fix map, that was broken and unbalanced, so nobody voted for it. But again. They take good balanced map and turn it into same old Frozen City or River city, nobody votes for, because it's boring snipe-fest. PGI still don't understand, that to be good, ALL maps should be balanced. We don't need "LRM maps. We don't need "Light-favoring maps". We don't need "snipe map". We need BALANCED maps. So, HPG changes should be reverted ASAP. Otherwise it will be just another dead map.

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 September 2021 - 08:03 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

pattonesque, on 06 September 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

Long range is very powerful. However, particularly in maps like new Canyon, new Polar, and new HPG, there are plenty of routes you can use with a lot of cover that will allow you to get within brawling range. When you get within brawling range, brawling weapons will tear snipers apart.

I wish there was a guide on what would be the best routes to get to the enemy. You can't really experiment because when you do, you die instantly from 400 ppcs 800m away.

[Monkey Lover]

Dont LRM me please, on 06 September 2021 - 08:29 PM, said:

I wish there was a guide on what would be the best routes to get to the enemy. You can't really experiment because when you do, you die instantly from 400 ppcs 800m away.

Goodluck, If you take any type of route to the enemy people start yelling about nascar lol

Just join us with the ppcs its easier

[TheCallandor]

Can any one say hacks? and of cores.. i will be flamed for saying anything about that.. prove me wrong...btw i am only joking...

Edited by TheCallandor, 06 September 2021 - 10:04 PM.

[Bamboozle Gold]

Dont LRM me please, on 06 September 2021 - 08:29 PM, said:

I wish there was a guide on what would be the best routes to get to the enemy. You can't really experiment because when you do, you die instantly from 400 ppcs 800m away.

You can go into the map in testing grounds via Mechlab. Go and look at which parts of the wall you can see from which grid cells. If you cannot see the wall because it's blocked by terrain the wall snipers won't be able to see you either.

I struggled with the new HPG in my first 10 or so matches there. But I took the time to look at the sight lines in testing grounds and there's actually loads of cover if you know where it is. Now if anything my personal experience is that the team with more mechs on the wall usually loses as they cannot hold the middle and their brawlers get picked off early.

Yes, if a sniper rotates all the way to your spawn side of the wall then you can get shot but it'll take so long you should have the advantage on the ground by then.

[Horseman]

HauptmanT, on 06 September 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

He's likely t4-t5. Those matches are not anything like "normal".

D A T A, on 06 September 2021 - 03:43 PM, said:

the problem is that big alphas at range to not exist.....cerll are capped at max 2, IS erll at max 3, erppcs are max 2, gausses are max 2.....wtf

You forget that perception and tactical awareness is not anything like "normal" in those tiers either

[Thorqemada]

When someone says Alphas have not increased that does not necessarily mean that the damage output is still the same as i.e. the ability to fire 3 alphas instead of 2 is very well an increase in damage output...

So allways take anything said not at face value but look behind it!

[pbiggz]

"Welcome to the international foundation for removing things that I do not like from the game immediately and only keeping things that I do like in the game, until they do damage to me too much, at which point they should also be immediately removed from the game"

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 06 September 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

Unfortunately we've started this vicious cycle again. It was ok, when they fixed Polar, because it was done to fix map, that was broken and unbalanced, so nobody voted for it. But again. They take good balanced map and turn it into same old Frozen City or River city, nobody votes for, because it's boring snipe-fest. PGI still don't understand, that to be good, ALL maps should be balanced. We don't need "LRM maps. We don't need "Light-favoring maps". We don't need "snipe map". We need BALANCED maps. So, HPG changes should be reverted ASAP. Otherwise it will be just another dead map.

In my experience on playing HPG, most games come down to brawling and midrange. The wall is powerful but there is quite a bit of cover from it. What's been your experience, exactly?

[Kiiyor]

pattonesque, on 06 September 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

Long range is very powerful. However, particularly in maps like new Canyon, new Polar, and new HPG, there are plenty of routes you can use with a lot of cover that will allow you to get within brawling range. When you get within brawling range, brawling weapons will tear snipers apart.

Thing is, IMHO, you make far too many sacrifices as a brawler compared to a long ranged mech. Sure, you can brawl if you get within the magic <300m envelope, but how much armour have you lost to get there?

That long ranged mech though, it's sacrificed a lot of it's range based survivability if you're in it's face, but it's still fully capable of pumping out damage, especially if it's a decent heavy or assault. It can still ruin your day, even if you beat it.

I'm not saying brawlers aren't viable. I'm saying long ranged mechs are far more versatile and useable compared to the drawbacks placed upon shorter ranged mechs, on almost all the maps - maybe excepting Solaris. A decent pilot driving a decent brawler has to work far harder in the current meta to out perform a similarly skilled pilot in a mid -> long ranged build.

[GoodTry]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

Thing is, IMHO, you make far too many sacrifices as a brawler compared to a long ranged mech. Sure, you can brawl if you get within the magic <300m envelope, but how much armour have you lost to get there?

That long ranged mech though, it's sacrificed a lot of it's range based survivability if you're in it's face, but it's still fully capable of pumping out damage, especially if it's a decent heavy or assault. It can still ruin your day, even if you beat it.

I'm not saying brawlers aren't viable. I'm saying long ranged mechs are far more versatile and useable compared to the drawbacks placed upon shorter ranged mechs, on almost all the maps - maybe excepting Solaris. A decent pilot driving a decent brawler has to work far harder in the current meta to out perform a similarly skilled pilot in a mid -> long ranged build.

I run mostly short-range builds. I agree they still do well against long-range builds if you can get in range. The tricky thing is that if a large proportion of your team is running longer-range builds and content to camp out at ~400-500m, it's sometimes tough to get in range with brawl builds without being way out of position.

Edited by GoodTry, 07 September 2021 - 06:44 AM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

Thing is, IMHO, you make far too many sacrifices as a brawler compared to a long ranged mech. Sure, you can brawl if you get within the magic <300m envelope, but how much armour have you lost to get there?

That long ranged mech though, it's sacrificed a lot of it's range based survivability if you're in it's face, but it's still fully capable of pumping out damage, especially if it's a decent heavy or assault. It can still ruin your day, even if you beat it.

I'm not saying brawlers aren't viable. I'm saying long ranged mechs are far more versatile and useable compared to the drawbacks placed upon shorter ranged mechs, on almost all the maps - maybe excepting Solaris. A decent pilot driving a decent brawler has to work far harder in the current meta to out perform a similarly skilled pilot in a mid -> long ranged build.

I hard disagree with this statement. Long range builds have to make compromises in order to stay relevant to their team and fill more of a niche role. When playing fire support, a player has to have good map knowledge and have very good situational awareness (a very common theme that I see alot of players lack in this game).

Edited by Valdarion Silarius, 07 September 2021 - 08:45 AM.

[pattonesque]

Yeah there are sacrifices on both sides. Just recently I've run up on a sniper Timber Wolf as a 4SRM6A ACW-Prime and a sniper MAD-II as a Yen-Lo-Wang and took them both apart pretty easily. Snipers heatcap after one or two alphas and by that point it's pretty easy for a brawler to take a torso which screws them over even more.

[evil kerensky]

The problem is that the power positions are too close to spawn on some maps. You got a guy in a strong position right off the bat, and suddenly he's raining pain on everyone from the get go. To stop him you need to either kill his whole team and get to him last, sneak by in a fast light, or be in a sniper yourself.

Him:requires a little map knowledge and the ability to aim
You:required to either be in a light and both smart and lucky, or in the mood to also be sniping and in a sniper from before you que, or able to body his team with enough teammates/health left over to close the gap and get to the snipers position.

It's not snipers, it's the map. Sniping is just more prevalent because there's more options. It's not enjoyable to play against though, that's true, and countering it is way harder than doing it.

[GoodTry]

evil kerensky, on 07 September 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

The problem is that the power positions are too close to spawn on some maps. You got a guy in a strong position right off the bat, and suddenly he's raining pain on everyone from the get go. To stop him you need to either kill his whole team and get to him last, sneak by in a fast light, or be in a sniper yourself.

Even in a fast light, when there are snipers in quickplay, I rarely go and deal with them. The math makes no sense:

• I'd have to spend maybe a quarter or more of the match just walking
  
• It's usually a risky trip even as a fast light, so I may get torn up or even killed on the way
  
• The sniper is still going to be doing its thing for the whole walk over there
  
• There's maybe a 50% chance that the team will deal with the sniper on its own (by shooting it or finding cover) before I get all the way over there, potentially making the whole trip pointless
  
• If it turns out there are two or more snipers, I'm going to be in a tough spot because they will likely cover each other as I try to kill one. If I don't see the second sniper until I'm over there, it's going to be a long walk back.
  
• One way or another, I'm likely to be beaten up a bit from the fight, and on the wrong side of the map just as the match gets into prime time for short-range lights (that point where everyone is brawling and wounded, and you can really tear things up as a light)
  
• The smaller lights aren't that great against Gauss/PPC snipers, as one lucky shot may open up or destroy a leg.

No thanks. We'll have to deal with the sniper(s) with our own long-range mechs or by fighting somewhere we have cover.

Edited by GoodTry, 07 September 2021 - 10:23 AM.

[Jounulz]

I appreciate the discussion, aside from the ad hominem attacks and the blatant misreading of mine and other posts.

I'm Tier 1, btw.

I'll concede it may be more or as much map design as anything else, having read several posts on here. I'm not even saying snipers should disappear from the game, only they should be balanced against all of the other styles, which does not seem to be the case.

Since coming back to playing more regularly, I see a majority of mechs with multiple ER Larges, PPC, Gauss. Many mechs can boat what seems to me to be alot of weapon systems. The heat cost does not seem to limit their usage like it would in the earlier versions of MWO and BT in general.

My post was meant to raise a budding concern so it could be reviewed and perhaps future changes could hew more closely to balance - whether in roles of mechs, maps, style of play, etc.

Again, the constructive comments are appreciated.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Jounulz, on 07 September 2021 - 11:06 AM, said:

I appreciate the discussion, aside from the ad hominem attacks and the blatant misreading of mine and other posts.

I'm Tier 1, btw.

I'll concede it may be more or as much map design as anything else, having read several posts on here. I'm not even saying snipers should disappear from the game, only they should be balanced against all of the other styles, which does not seem to be the case.

Since coming back to playing more regularly, I see a majority of mechs with multiple ER Larges, PPC, Gauss. Many mechs can boat what seems to me to be alot of weapon systems. The heat cost does not seem to limit their usage like it would in the earlier versions of MWO and BT in general.

My post was meant to raise a budding concern so it could be reviewed and perhaps future changes could hew more closely to balance - whether in roles of mechs, maps, style of play, etc.

Again, the constructive comments are appreciated.

If you are tier 1 as you claim to be, then you should reconsider your playstyle if you are struggling against ERLL, Gauss and ERPPC boats. Here's how to negate a sniper's playstyle:

• Stick with your team and share armor
  
• Hide behind wall/natural terrain cover and move accordingly
  
• Do not stand stationary out in the open
  
• Communicate with your team over open mic/chat to call out snipers (especially useful for snipers on your team)
  
• Send artillery/air strikes to force a retreat
  
• Use an ECM mech to counter lock ons
  
• Use radar deprivation

I personally don't see a problem with a long range fire support role aka sniper, as their high damage output is rewarded by accuracy and requires a substantial level of patience to execute properly. Every long range weapon system in this game has major drawbacks which would turn off most casual players. ERLL's have high heat build up, low damage output and a long burn duration. Gauss rifles have a charge delay and require even more precision since their damage is pin point. PPC's in general have very high heat build up with the added bonus of ghost heat.

If there are any changes I would like to see, I would like a global buff in range for all weapon systems including brawling oriented mechs. If the cauldron/PGI ever decides to remove the skill tree system then I would like to see similar range values to MW:LL.