101 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

My experience playing brawlers is that I don’t get wrecked early because I use cover. If you’re consistently getting destroyed by long range mechs before you can close that’s a playstyle problem I think

[pbiggz]

Haipyng, on 13 September 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

People are trying to tell you their experience in playing short range brawlers since the rise in damage among longer range energy and the high alpha builds is that they have a rough time closing without taking significant damage before they can bring their weapons to bear. That is made worse when half your team is also playing pokers as they are not closing to share armor with. You can dismiss it and call it laughable all you want, but it is their experience. You won't change their experience by dismissing it.

I don't call it wrong, nor do I care that much. I play almost every build of mech there is including mixed builds. The longer range high energy builds tend to produce better damage numbers and that is why so many people are playing them. At best MWO is team deathmatch as damage is the only thing rewarded significantly. If you want a broad mix of mechs playing they need to be able to deal roughly equal damage during a game, or people will play the builds that do the most damage. It's not complicated.

This also is NOT about sniper builds (900+M). They get their number from longevity and distance not high alphas.

Their experience is one thing. If you're a brawler you now need to at least be conscious of snipers, and play to avoid them. Their diagnoses and solutions are frankly insane. They've noticed snipers are present, and that they kill them while in brawlers. Instead of adjusting their own playstyles to compensate, they're here screaming bloody murder at the top of their lungs, demanding that all weapons that kill them be removed from the game and spinning wild conspiracies about how it's killing the population.

Sniping is not overrepresented. That's a fact. Its not free damage, its not free kills. For every good sniper there's 3 bad ones who do 200 damage then die to a light.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Essentially, yeah. With every change to the game, tactics and meta evolve a little bit. Load outs change, maps change, but basics like “stick to cover” and “don’t leave the assault mechs behind” never do. And after every change some people will ragequit, while the vast majority simply adapt.

I’m adapting.

[Haipyng]

pbiggz, on 13 September 2021 - 07:12 AM, said:

Sniping is not overrepresented. That's a fact. Its not free damage, its not free kills. For every good sniper there's 3 bad ones who do 200 damage then die to a light.

So again, I am not saying sniping and I don't think anyone else that is talking about the longer range (500-650ish M) high alpha builds (LL, HLL Etc) is either. Snipers are not a problem. I have yet to see a sniper build blasting away with 4 or more ERLL at a time (I am sure someone will try to make one).

Edited by Haipyng, 13 September 2021 - 10:02 AM.

[Ignatius Audene]

MechaGnome, on 12 September 2021 - 10:20 PM, said:

The problems are clans their weapon ranges are just too long for the maps sizes.. Yes IS are are long as well but nothing like clans.. I know its somewhat lore but in this game its just toooooo far.

Dont loose in mechlab. BLM 1g, stalker 5s, anni p, erppc light gauss whm are some of the strongest long range mechs currently.
To lights: The more frequent 40+ ppfld dont help lights rly

[JediPanther]

pattonesque, on 11 September 2021 - 04:24 AM, said:

Rescale will hopefully be a thing but I’m not sure I agree with your perception here. Lots of quality lights now: Firestarter, Flea, Wolfhound, Urbanmech, Mist Lynx (!), Incubus (!!), Commando, Piranha, some Kit Foxes, a Javelin here and there. More quirks will be inbound for others too!

It's funny you left out the Jenner of your list. F--- the quirks. Rescale the is Jenners back to their original scale is what i'm after. I might spend money again if the jr10-x was added. Until then I'll just keep waiting for that reversion of poo and spend my money and time on other games.

[pattonesque]

JediPanther, on 13 September 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

It's funny you left out the Jenner of your list. F--- the quirks. Rescale the is Jenners back to their original scale is what i'm after. I might spend money again if the jr10-x was added. Until then I'll just keep waiting for that reversion of poo and spend my money and time on other games.

I wouldn't say it's funny because the Jenner's still not great. I've heard people say the Oxide is good again but haven't gotten the chance to test it myself. Rescale will definitely help them out.

[GuardDogg]

pattonesque, on 13 September 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

My experience playing brawlers is that I don’t get wrecked early because I use cover. If you’re consistently getting destroyed by long range mechs before you can close that’s a playstyle problem I think

Exactly. When playing the same plays all the time. You will get to know where the snipers are. It never changes.

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 13 September 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

I wouldn't say it's funny because the Jenner's still not great. I've heard people say the Oxide is good again but haven't gotten the chance to test it myself. Rescale will definitely help them out.

I still bust out my Sarah’s Jenner every so often on principle, and every time I do I find myself saying “wow, that was a lot of work for 300 damage.” It just dies quickly. The armor quirks helped, but it’s just a bit too big.

[Bamboozle Gold]

ScrapIron Prime, on 13 September 2021 - 07:08 PM, said:

I still bust out my Sarah’s Jenner every so often on principle, and every time I do I find myself saying “wow, that was a lot of work for 300 damage.” It just dies quickly. The armor quirks helped, but it’s just a bit too big.

Rescale is coming, hopefully it'll help.

[caravann]

Jounulz, on 06 September 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

Having come back after the recent changes, here's the problem:

There are simply too many mechs, that can do too much damage, at too long of a range.

The whole game is now (or will get there very soon) "Alpha Sniper Online." There are maps where you take two steps from your drop and lose 5-10% of your armor because someone can reach you from the other side of the map without having to move at all or barely.

HPG is probably the worse offender now. It was fine to make more parts of the map more accessible, but the combined effect is to make the damage/range issues even worse.

The game doesn't need to be tailored to the comp players/style of play so much that there's only one style of play/way to play a map.

Just one old fart's opinion...

Because LBX is the biggest offender by being low-key spreading weapon but in reality it is an AC1 who shoot 5-20 times and since the damage is so small it deals solid damage even at long range. There are weapons who have the potential to deal good damage at 500 but it also true for the snipers. SRM is used by players who look too much at texts when those numbers are never going to be true inside the battle. Once you reach 500m and the SRM deals zero damage, while being in the optimal range of every sniper. Some weapons are mostly terrifying than effective but all those 1 damages is proved to be effective or else nobody would use LBX.

[Alexander of Macedon]

GoodTry, on 07 September 2021 - 10:20 AM, said:

Even in a fast light, when there are snipers in quickplay, I rarely go and deal with them. The math makes no sense:

• I'd have to spend maybe a quarter or more of the match just walking

LMAO what

If you'd ever actually played a skirmishing/backstabbing light you'd know that the start of almost every match is you waiting in cover on the far side of the map for the enemy team to move up enough that you don't run into them while they're still leaving their spawn. New HPG I usually have to wait for a minute or two because if I ran straight to the enemy ramps I'd be climbing them with the slower half of their team.

[Vectoron The Black Minister]

pattonesque, on 13 September 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

My experience playing brawlers is that I don’t get wrecked early because I use cover. If you’re consistently getting destroyed by long range mechs before you can close that’s a playstyle problem I think

Same. We're not really dying to any sort of sniper fest, though we've seen plenty more now that more weapon combinations are becoming viable (which is awesome honestly).

If anyone is brawling and having trouble with snipers - be patient. You won't be fighting when the round starts immediately, so try using that time to set up properly.

Sometimes the snipers themselves will get impatient if you don't present them with a target and move to ground that is unsafe for them. That would be a good time to pounce on them.

[GoodTry]

Alexander of Macedon, on 19 September 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

LMAO what

If you'd ever actually played a skirmishing/backstabbing light you'd know that the start of almost every match is you waiting in cover on the far side of the map for the enemy team to move up enough that you don't run into them while they're still leaving their spawn. New HPG I usually have to wait for a minute or two because if I ran straight to the enemy ramps I'd be climbing them with the slower half of their team.

I was referring to how big of a waste of time it can be to leave the fight and kill a long range sniper, not general light play.

[Thorqemada]

The problem of Brawling is when you stay patient and survive while your Team is falling apart and you simply get to brawl in the final mop up with no hope for success.

[Alexander of Macedon]

GoodTry, on 19 September 2021 - 01:12 PM, said:

I was referring to how big of a waste of time it can be to leave the fight and kill a long range sniper, not general light play.

Okay, fairer, but still questionable. I'd rather be killing an isolated sniper than trying to force an engage on a cluster of enemies. The sort of engagement where you can really run wild is rare, and killing someone while two nascars circle isn't wasted time. And, again, 165kph will get you across almost every map in less than a minute. It's the morons in heavies and assaults running off to 5v1 a single enemy in Rhodesia that're wasting time.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 19 September 2021 - 02:50 PM.

[R Valentine]

Thorqemada, on 19 September 2021 - 02:17 PM, said:

The problem of Brawling is when you stay patient and survive while your Team is falling apart and you simply get to brawl in the final mop up with no hope for success.

Teammates playing like idiots doesn't invalidate brawling. It invalidates your teammates, and said idiots would probably get rekt 10x from Sunday regardless of what build they're playing. In fact, I'd wager half of them are play LRMs anyways. The player factor isn't something you can balance mechs for. If your teammates decide that running headlong into a wall of gunfire is what they want to do, then it's GG. Believe me, I find this just as, if not more, frustrating as you do, but that's not how we should decide to balance game play. I can't help if it Mr. Atlas, loaded entirely with SRM's and an AC/20, won't budge from his spot to a distance where he can actually use his weapons and instead gets sniped into oblivion. Nor can I help it if Mr. Wannabe sniper charges head first at the enemy and gets heavily out DPSed at 300M, when he was shooting just fine at 800M not 60 seconds earlier. Neither case requires a weapon or mech balance change.

[caravann]

You don't shoot , then you don't attribute to the dps.

That's why brawling is subject. You'll need secondary long range.

In MWO it's about being specialized.

A brawler will at best be a support fire to a missile boat since it won't be able to support its own missiles.

Or a scout with an er PPC. And then sit there waiting for all other team members die since your dps is lower and you shoot at a longer range which makes you further away and less liked target since you only shoot 1 er PPC. Brawling is what lights do, we see them alive but they're not really as effective at the start of the game and only because them run around and avoid fights.

Who sit in a corner and do nothing will be alive by the end of the game. Usually it's the AFK who is alive by the end of the game and the brawler is ending up in this same category of either die very early on and accomplish low dps or stay passive and deal low dps and numbers on how much damage they deal is based on that they are shooting at mechs who have already lost 1/3 of their firepower and is punched on every part until them fall down.

[pattonesque]

caravann, on 21 September 2021 - 07:19 AM, said:

You don't shoot , then you don't attribute to the dps.

That's why brawling is subject. You'll need secondary long range.

In MWO it's about being specialized.

A brawler will at best be a support fire to a missile boat since it won't be able to support its own missiles.

Or a scout with an er PPC. And then sit there waiting for all other team members die since your dps is lower and you shoot at a longer range which makes you further away and less liked target since you only shoot 1 er PPC. Brawling is what lights do, we see them alive but they're not really as effective at the start of the game and only because them run around and avoid fights.

Who sit in a corner and do nothing will be alive by the end of the game. Usually it's the AFK who is alive by the end of the game and the brawler is ending up in this same category of either die very early on and accomplish low dps or stay passive and deal low dps and numbers on how much damage they deal is based on that they are shooting at mechs who have already lost 1/3 of their firepower and is punched on every part until them fall down.

this sounds like an improper playstyle for brawling. You can be remarkably aggressive in a brawler if you keep cover and the minimap in mind. "die early or hide" are not the only two options lol

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 21 September 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

this sounds like an improper playstyle for brawling. You can be remarkably aggressive in a brawler if you keep cover and the minimap in mind. "die early or hide" are not the only two options lol

Still, there's nothing wrong with some secondary long range. A lot of my larger SRM brawlers have a couple Large Lasers bolted on as well. But... and this is key... that doesn't mean I should sit back at 500m and trade laser fire. I should fire those larges while ON THE WAY to the brawl, and be mindful that exposing my torso to fire them may get me more damage than I inflict, which can be another way to lose.