164 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yes, all the popular maps have been made worse, and people still have to vote for something. If you check my post you quoted, it's about having the old and new versions of the maps come up side-by-side and seeing which people actually vote for.

People vote for the maps that allow them to most easily brainlessly nascar because they're used to it. That does not mean they *like* the old maps and *hate* the new ones. The negative reaction to alot of these changes, including from you are entirely unjustified. Being unwilling to adjust to a change does not by default make that change a bad one, it just means you don't like change (despite constantly demanding it).

This is a simple case of reacting negatively to nice things just because we're so used to receiving ****, if anything at all, and y'all are gonna have to get over yourselves.

[knight-of-ni]

I just started playing MWO again after a ~3 year break, and haven't played the new caustic map... it gets outvoted each time. Maybe that is a clue, eh?

[Nightbird]

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

People vote for the maps that allow them to most easily brainlessly nascar because they're used to it. That does not mean they *like* the old maps and *hate* the new ones. The negative reaction to alot of these changes, including from you are entirely unjustified. Being unwilling to adjust to a change does not by default make that change a bad one, it just means you don't like change (despite constantly demanding it).

This is a simple case of reacting negatively to nice things just because we're so used to receiving ****, if anything at all, and y'all are gonna have to get over yourselves.

In other words: "All the people that vote for their favorite map is stupid, I know what's best for them."

[John Bronco]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

In other words: "All the people that vote for their favorite map is stupid, I know what's best for them."

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community not making good decisions with polls. It's why there is now a group of experts making decisions on balance, trials, new variants, and maps to be reworked.

[Curccu]

John Bronco, on 28 September 2021 - 12:23 PM, said:

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community not making good decisions with polls. It's why there is now a group of experts making decisions on balance, trials, new variants, and maps to be reworked.

Well PGI has also pretty damn good track record doing bad decisions?
Variants and map reworks are still 100% PGI?

[John Bronco]

Curccu, on 28 September 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Well PGI has also pretty damn good track record doing bad decisions?
Variants and map reworks are still 100% PGI?

My understanding is the selection of the variants and maps to be reworked are cauldron informed.

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 28 September 2021 - 12:23 PM, said:

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community not making good decisions with polls. It's why there is now a group of experts making decisions on balance, trials, new variants, and maps to be reworked.

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community presenting opinions as fact. For example, do you have any examples of polls leading to bad decisions?

[John Bronco]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 12:38 PM, said:

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community presenting opinions as fact. For example, do you have any examples of polls leading to bad decisions?

The trials that were recently replaced, and the first booster pack being underwhelming compared to the next ones.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 12:38 PM, said:

I think we've seen plenty of examples of this community presenting opinions as fact. For example, do you have any examples of polls leading to bad decisions?

Going back to the hole map voting thing, Canyon and HPG are still voted very often. I'll have to take note of how often they come up vs other maps.

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 28 September 2021 - 12:53 PM, said:

The trials that were recently replaced, and the first booster pack being underwhelming compared to the next ones.

Those were done by polls? Where?

Gas Guzzler, on 28 September 2021 - 12:54 PM, said:

Going back to the whole map voting thing, Canyon and HPG are still voted very often. I'll have to take note of how often they come up vs other maps.

Again, that's not what I wrote.

[pbiggz]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

In other words: "All the people that vote for their favorite map is stupid, I know what's best for them."

No, what I said was you can't draw conclusions on the quality of map remakes simply by observing the votes during each match.

Lots of people vote for maps they like. Lots of people vote against maps they don't like. Lots of people vote for maps that are easy to play. Lots of people vote for maps that will make their mechs perform better.

Can you tell me who is doing what? Can you tell me when? If you say you can, you are either dumb, or you have an agenda.

Edited by pbiggz, 28 September 2021 - 02:59 PM.

[pbiggz]

And for the record, yes, this community is full of adult babymen who don't know what they're asking for when they ask for it.

If this community got everything it wanted it'd have stock only queue, mechlab removed from the game, battletech tabletop values, 10v12 clan/is matches and no player grouping of any kind, and this game would be ****.

How many times in the last few months of the cauldron rebalancing have we seen people full throated demanding that we roll values back to lowreybalance states just because people felt like they were winning more matches then. Even though then was literally the bottom of the worst population drought this game had ever experienced?

Edited by pbiggz, 28 September 2021 - 03:03 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:03 PM, said:

Even though then was literally the bottom of the worst population drought this game had ever experienced?

We had Old Caustic during the highest population point in this game, therefore we should bring it back into rotation.
Also, we should officially rename it "Old Caustic", because that has a nice ring to it.

[Nightbird]

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:03 PM, said:

And for the record, yes, this community is full of adult babymen who don't know what they're asking for when they ask for it.

If this community got everything it wanted it'd have stock only queue, mechlab removed from the game, battletech tabletop values, 10v12 clan/is matches and no player grouping of any kind, and this game would be ****.

How many times in the last few months of the cauldron rebalancing have we seen people full throated demanding that we roll values back to lowreybalance states just because people felt like they were winning more matches then. Even though then was literally the bottom of the worst population drought this game had ever experienced?

I'm still waiting for evidence that polls are bad. Not how polls that never existed would result in bad results. Nor what a few random people ask for now and then.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 28 September 2021 - 03:09 PM, said:

We had Old Caustic during the highest population point in this game, therefore we should bring it back into rotation.
Also, we should officially rename it "Old Caustic", because that has a nice ring to it.

You're entitled to not like it. You're not entitled to scream for better maps, then scream for the old ones when the fixed maps arrive. I don't know what new caustic plays like. I haven't tried it yet. It sounds to me like it could need a bit of work. That's fine. That's a reasonable position to take.

"Make the game like it was in 2016" is not a reasonable position to take.

Also original caustic was objectively a terrible map.

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'm still waiting for evidence that polls are bad. Not how polls that never existed would result in bad results. Nor what a few random people ask for now and then.

I'm still waiting for you to admit map voting is heavily influenced by numerous externalities which you are conveniently ignoring to further your own narrative.

[feeWAIVER]

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

You're entitled to not like it. You're not entitled to scream for better maps, then scream for the old ones when the fixed maps arrive. I don't know what new caustic plays like. I haven't tried it yet. It sounds to me like it could need a bit of work. That's fine. That's a reasonable position to take.

If anything, you who by your own account hasn't even played the map, have no entitlement to an opinion on the subject.
I played the map, and provided feedback and suggestion for Old Caustic does not equate to "screaming". Get a grip.

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

"Make the game like it was in 2016" is not a reasonable position to take.

But that's what you just did....

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

Also original caustic was objectively a terrible map.

That's not what objectively means. You're doing it wrong, objectively speaking.

[Nightbird]

pbiggz, on 28 September 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

Also original caustic was objectively a terrible map.

I'm still waiting for you to admit map voting is heavily influenced by numerous externalities which you are conveniently ignoring to further your own narrative.

What narrative is that? That the most popular maps are being made less popular because of a few loud mouths?

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

I agree that Polar, HPG, and Caustic should have both old and new maps side-by-side, since they are so different and all have their own appeal. Old maps can have reduced frequency of appearance similar to Alpine Peaks, but I think players should be given an opportunity to choose them.

And perhaps just subtlely reshape the old maps instead of substantially changing the spirit of these maps in the meantime? Such as reworking the centre platform of old HPG to discourage nascar? Or scattering a few cliffs, base towers, and "canopies" (i.e. Grim Plexus) around old Polar to provide LRM cover?

I mean I hate old HPG with a burning passion, but I still accept that some folks love that map. Just like how I am fine with old Polar, but lots of people hated that map.

I disagree with keeping old Canyon though. We still have Hibernal Rift, and new Canyon to me is a definite improvement over old.


A question I do want to ask is: Why are there 2 identical versions of old Forest and Frozen?

[pbiggz]

Nightbird, on 28 September 2021 - 03:21 PM, said:

What narrative is that? That the most popular maps are being made less popular because of a few loud mouths?

big ol' citation needed on that one pal.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

MWO is not a Game for crying Kids, thats can not convert her Playstyle, thats only can fights to targets thats still standing in 200m and runs with a Knife to a open Battlefield...goes to Singleplayer Games with little pink Unicorns as enemys...the Lights to bad to my big fatty Assault when im walk alone trough the night ...teh Assault to bad against my sweet littel light thats standing for 1 minute in the Open , the other have to big Tonnage...the other use LRMs...the others...the others ...the others ....Generation Snowflake

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 28 September 2021 - 06:44 PM.