164 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

Map sucks.

The old map was elegant in it's simplicity.

This new map is garbage. It's a literal sniper bowl, with rows of "lolcover" rocks creating corridors to shoot down.

Spoiler

NB4 the obligatory positioning diatribe from the usual suspects.

[LordNothing]

i believe you and i havent played yet. i look forward to complaining about it along with nu-hpg which i still haven't played yet.

[Commoners]

I'm usually a member of the obligatory positioning diatribe group because I legitimately think the other reworks are pretty well done, but caustic isn't quite there.

It feels like the outer ring is too sheltered from other points of the outer ring, so it turns the center of the map into a legit kill zone where both teams can be firing in from angles that nullify the middle cover without actually threatening or being threatened by each other in the outer rim.

So it's made a situation where it feels like it is actively a bad idea to take the middle or even travel through it instead of a win condition like it is in new HPG, and fighting is going to be forced to the outside loop of the map. The outer rim of the map has been pretty well realized with its terrain features though, so I guess that's okay?

Feels unusual because most of the reworks have encouraged map control that gives you pretty big advantages when you claim the middle of the map instead of rotating, but this one seems to very much encourage hard dedicating into rotations even more-so than the old caustic. Had a couple of matches that were fun to play, but the rest of them were just sort of frustrating and unfun, which is kind of the opposite ratio that I had with the other reworked maps.

Haven't had enough play time on it tbh because it's being actively downvoted on the first day of release, so I feel like that says something about the community uptake of it compared to past reworks.

I'm not really entirely sure what I'd do to improve it. HPG and canyon network had clear solutions in reiteration where we could go "This cover needs to be toned down" or "Add a ramp here to allow counterplay on this power position," but I don't really see a super clear tuning solution for caustic.

Maybe somehow force the outer rim snipers to have to contend with each other instead of just being able to mutually shoot the middle like fish in a barrel. Maybe add a little bit more cover in the middle without making it lose its identity as a map. Or maybe it's intended in map design that the fight is taken to the outer ring of the map, and the middle is specifically designed as a kill zone that should only be used for quick traversals as a risky shortcut across the map?

Edited by Commoners, 21 September 2021 - 05:13 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

So I played domination on caustic and I recorded some of my gameplay

Oh the footage forgot the part where me and 3 mechs in a panicked frenzy tried to squeeze ourselves behind 1 cragrock that wasn't even big enough for one of us, all while 4 clan mechs from 800 meters shot at us.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 21 September 2021 - 05:16 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Commoners, on 21 September 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

Maybe somehow force the outer rim snipers to have to contend with each other instead of just being able to mutually shoot the middle like fish in a barrel. Maybe add a little bit more cover in the middle without making it lose its identity as a map. Or maybe it's intended in map design that the fight is taken to the outer ring of the map, and the middle is specifically designed as a kill zone that should only be used for quick traversals as a risky shortcut across the map?

The problem is then that sounds like how caustic was yesterday. Then we'd get NASCAR again.

And if it was intended map design was to have the middle as merely a "kill zone" for "risky traversal" then WHY THE HELL DOES THE DOMINATION ZONE STAND RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT AND DOES NOT EXTEND PAST IT?

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 21 September 2021 - 05:22 PM.

[Commoners]

Dont LRM me please, on 21 September 2021 - 05:20 PM, said:

The problem is then that sounds like how caustic was yesterday. Then we'd get NASCAR again.

The big difference is that on the old caustic it felt like cutting through the caldera in the middle was a calculated gamble that could either pay off with a better engagement or get punished by being caught out, and even if you did get caught out as long as you weren't in the direct middle of it you had plenty of egress points to escape with just a little bit of damage.

With this one it feels like the middle is a death trap, and that crossing through it just means that you've made huge mistakes in life that have forced you into making another huge mistake.

I guess one thing to say for the outer rim being so sheltered against the other team's mechs, it makes it REALLY easy to creep a brawler in on the other players fighting in the same rotation as you are.

Edited by Commoners, 21 September 2021 - 05:27 PM.

[Papaspud]

Needs more haze, then you could use feelers.

[GuardDogg]

Ah, nothing wrong with it. Just not used to the change. Just like politics. People want change for the better, and then it happens.

[W4R GOD]

feeWAIVER, on 21 September 2021 - 03:58 PM, said:

Map sucks.

The old map was elegant in it's simplicity.

This new map is garbage. It's a literal sniper bowl, with rows of "lolcover" rocks creating corridors to shoot down.

Spoiler

NB4 the obligatory positioning diatribe from the usual suspects.

Its complete garbage. Another long range map that the snipers will say has cover but not actually use themselves.

[Angus McFife VI]

Just look at those sightlines, it's like mechs in a literal barrel...



Look, maybe I'm completely wrong and there's some amazing flank route we aren't seeing but... so far my first impressions are very poor.

[mareNight]

Feels like the meta is being driven towards playing snipers or lights (lights being able to avoid sniper fire).

Brawling feels dead.

I'd be less frustrated if I could pick my mech after the map. That way I could pick a brawler for the few times I get the city map.

[Gas Guzzler]

To me, it seems clear that the goal was to avoid the obvious mega NASCAR feature in the center of the map. And to a certain point, that was a success.
However, the cover features in the "bowl" aren't significant enough, and could use a tuning pass to provide more routes and more cover. Especially hard cover from LRMs.

[Commoners]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2021 - 06:24 PM, said:

To me, it seems clear that the goal was to avoid the obvious mega NASCAR feature in the center of the map. And to a certain point, that was a success.
However, the cover features in the "bowl" aren't significant enough, and could use a tuning pass to provide more routes and more cover. Especially hard cover from LRMs.

Oh man I forgot to mention that, that was one of my big experiences with the map. Not having radar dep HURTS because those rocks provide no cover against indirect fire LRMs. They just curve over the top and hit you, so any amount of exposure or getting spotted really just ends you if the lrmboats get their lock with target decay active.

[mareNight]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2021 - 06:24 PM, said:

To me, it seems clear that the goal was to avoid the obvious mega NASCAR feature in the center of the map. And to a certain point, that was a success.
However, the cover features in the "bowl" aren't significant enough, and could use a tuning pass to provide more routes and more cover. Especially hard cover from LRMs.

IMO LRMs are less of an issue, we have AMS for that.

[Gas Guzzler]

mareNight, on 21 September 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Feels like the meta is being driven towards playing snipers or lights (lights being able to avoid sniper fire).

I don't think the meta is being "driven" towards any one or two specific styles of play. Its natural that some maps will more heavily favor brawls and others might favor snipers. If anything, that is GOOD. But brawlers are still incredibly strong, and if you can capitalize on their superior close range firepower they can be devastating. Its all a balance. "Everything in moderation" applies. IMO, there is not quite enough cover on this particular map. If the majority of feedback echos that, I am sure that they will apply some tweaks to the map in a month or two.

To be clear... its not unplayable, and I'm sure with time folks will figure out where to go and where not to go.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 September 2021 - 06:28 PM.

[John Bronco]

Haven't played it yet but if there is inadequate cover from LRMs then it can only be described as a failure.

[pattonesque]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2021 - 06:27 PM, said:

I don't think the meta is being "driven" towards any one or two specific styles of play. Its natural that some maps will more heavily favor brawls and others might favor snipers. If anything, that is GOOD. But brawlers are still incredibly strong, and if you can capitalize on their superior close range firepower they can be devastating. Its all a balance. "Everything in moderation" applies. IMO, there is not quite enough cover on this particular map. If the majority of feedback echos that, I am sure that they will apply some tweaks to the map in a month or two.

To be clear... its not unplayable, and I'm sure with time folks will figure out where to go and where not to go.

yeah haven't had the chance to play new Caustic yet but new Polar, Canyon and HPG all have plenty of room for brawling, mid-range, and sniping. a lot of brawling weapons have gotten buffs, and plenty of brawl-focused mechs (Centurions alone!) have gotten armor and mobility buffs. Brawling is extremely viable r/n.

[Papaspud]

It looks like the early consensus is people don't like it much. I base this on noticing.... virtually nobody is picking it already when it comes up- the first day������‍♂️. Usually a new map is all the rage.

[Gas Guzzler]

John Bronco, on 21 September 2021 - 06:30 PM, said:

Haven't played it yet but if there is inadequate cover from LRMs then it can only be described as a failure.

I don't know if its just a coincidence, but I have yet to take a noticeable amount of damage from LRMs on the map. And believe me, I NOTICE when I'm taking a non-trivial amount of damage from LRMs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Papaspud, on 21 September 2021 - 06:37 PM, said:

It looks like the early consensus is people don't like it much. I base this on noticing.... virtually nobody is picking it already when it comes up- the first day������‍♂️. Usually a new map is all the rage.

I've noticed that as well, HPG is much more popular for instance, and still is.

I don't think its without hope. Those rocks in the middle just need to be adjusted and different groups of them connected to provide more cover.