134 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

I don't know if it's any better in T1 (Gawd I hope so) but I have noticed, ever since coming back earlier this summer, that people take for-GODDAMN-ever to get up and start heckin' GOING at the beginning of a match. I've seen assaullt 'mechs stand stock still, not even twisting, for north of a minute at match start, and then had those selfsame assault 'Mechs yell at the team for 'abandoning' them.

Bruh, I did not abandon ****, if you'd been awake at match start you'd be fine. I have regularly been at the front of the pack even when piloting my ridiculously ponderous bow-legged loltastically slow Dire Whale, simply because I start moving the instant my feet touch dirt, I don't throttle down, and I move in lines meant to minimize wasted time.

Assault 'Mechs can absolutely keep up with the main body of a team if they put some hustle in their hamhocks and GO. If you stand around, dawdle, prevaricate, take thirty minutes to alt-tab out of the game whenever you click "Find Match" without checking to see if it's go time, and generally don't bother trying to keep up, you won't. Getting abandoned is often - not always, but often - as much the fault of the abandoned player as it is the faster 'Mechs.

[Moldur]

1453 R, on 24 September 2021 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don't know if it's any better in T1

It isn't

Oh yeah, and as far as going back on topic. Lights are still not prevalent enough for light hunting streak builds to be any good (or consistent at least).

Edited by Moldur, 24 September 2021 - 03:15 PM.

[GoodTry]

Moldur, on 24 September 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

It isn't

Oh yeah, and as far as going back on topic. Lights are still not prevalent enough for light hunting streak builds to be any good (or consistent at least).

You missed two pages back where it was decreed that streaks are no good against lights. (?)

[Wildstreak]

Arnetheus, on 24 September 2021 - 02:54 AM, said:

By that logic, this very thread should not exist, as well as 90% of others. Cauldron should not be asking for feedback as well and just apply things on the fly =)
Not sure what tools you need, other than knowing stats progression and asking the person what they tend to play, and more importantly how they play those things.

Some threads should not exist.
The Cauldron has no clue what it is doing, they provided a lot of proof themselves seemingly without realizing it so I ignore them.

Really you would need a MWO version of something other games have like Paragon TV before it shut down. Solaris lets you see matches in real tie but not recorded and only limited to Solaris. Without that, no one has enough information plus we live in a time when players make stuff up to justify themselves even at the highest level.

[nitra]

i can see a difference this patch, last patch lights were strong and effective maybe a bit to strong maybe not.
but this patch they are over the top.

since coming back to the game a few months ago, i noticed that stealth lights and ecm lights were pretty potent force to be reckoned with on the field, so i decided to outfit a light a hunter. A cicada x5 with 2 light ppcs and 2 streak 4s. this seemed to be pretty effective against all but the stealths or stacked ecms. but in the previous patch i could run this and feel pretty effective in the role intended for the mech. excluding stealths

so now that the new patch has dropped. i have noticed a change in my light encounters. they are now face tanking the damage because they can afford it. and engagements are now lasting longer which is bad because thats more time im at risk of being blasted to bits by incoming.

i have also noticed their increased longevity in spectator mode. was watching a flea that is stripped, legged, and red, red orange ... he was hit with twin cssrm sixes. and tanked it. no death nor a single crit to any of his weapons. that light lived and engaged 2 other mechs before the match ended.

Artic cheaters have always been a problem but im coming across them in matches where they are just taking an unbelievable amount of damage now.

which brings me to major issue we have now, lights in this patch are taking way to much time to dispatch.
they are no longer deterred by incoming enemy fire as a majority of it never registers or is negated by buffs and or bad models.
this negates the often shoot them solution as you spend time shooting them a majority of that dps is wasted and or is negated.

also with the ecm buffs , there to few tools to counter all the ecm on the field thank goodness for the light ppcs. bujt its ridiculous we dont have better electronic warfare tools need something better than that worthless bap. or it needs to work better in conjunction with tag and or targeting computers.

somewhat related, this really irked me , is when they buffed the cicadia, they gave it upper Armour ...

really ?? the main reasons cicadas die so early in battle is not torso destruction but leg destruction. this mech has needed leg buffs for ages. almost every hit damages the legs. and with the latest few patches there is incoming that near about takes a leg off a cicada in a single hit.

to bad this cicada curse can not apply to some of those lights on the field.

[nitra]

1453 R, on 24 September 2021 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don't know if it's any better in T1 (Gawd I hope so) but I have noticed, ever since coming back earlier this summer, that people take for-GODDAMN-ever to get up and start heckin' GOING at the beginning of a match. I've seen assaullt 'mechs stand stock still, not even twisting, for north of a minute at match start, and then had those selfsame assault 'Mechs yell at the team for 'abandoning' them.

Bruh, I did not abandon ****, if you'd been awake at match start you'd be fine. I have regularly been at the front of the pack even when piloting my ridiculously ponderous bow-legged loltastically slow Dire Whale, simply because I start moving the instant my feet touch dirt, I don't throttle down, and I move in lines meant to minimize wasted time.

Assault 'Mechs can absolutely keep up with the main body of a team if they put some hustle in their hamhocks and GO. If you stand around, dawdle, prevaricate, take thirty minutes to alt-tab out of the game whenever you click "Find Match" without checking to see if it's go time, and generally don't bother trying to keep up, you won't. Getting abandoned is often - not always, but often - as much the fault of the abandoned player as it is the faster 'Mechs.

and this also helps enemy lights, a slow team gives the lights time to pick targets and also survive any early engagements because the rest of you slow asses have yet to get to the field to provide much needed fire support.

[pattonesque]

that Cicada is not really a good light hunter. You may want to try something like a Black Lanner with a bunch of red lasers

[nitra]

yeah, but i really dislike clan mechs because im stupid...
sad thing is, cicada was supposed to be a light hunter ...

but yeah i may have to give up and go clan for a more effective light hunter. especially if things get worse.

[kuma8877]

nitra, on 25 September 2021 - 06:14 AM, said:

yeah, but i really dislike clan mechs because im stupid...
sad thing is, cicada was supposed to be a light hunter ...

but yeah i may have to give up and go clan for a more effective light hunter. especially if things get worse.

There are some decent IS light hunters. Assassin, Hellspawn, Vulcan, Jenner, Firestarter, Javelin, Osiris... Just depends on how you like to dance.

[1453 R]

It's not that the X-5 can't do the job, it's that your specific configuration isn't really awesome for it. You've got ten points of pinpoint damage and sixteen of scatter damage; you're mixing anti-light approaches and getting the best benefits of neither. You can either go with a fast hunter, something that can get in their face and stay there with a focused armament (the xl300 quad MPL X-5) or you can go with the hitty hunter that trades away some speed for larger guns, things like snub peeps. If you're gonna stick with the light peeps - which can actually make for decent anti-light beatsticks given their low cycle rate and lack of minimum range - I'd pack all four energy hardpoints on the Race Bug with them. Spitballing in MechDB, maybe something like this? THE X-5

Note: under almost all circumstances rockets are terrible memes and you should never seriously consider using them...but the X-5 simply does not have the room for both a quartet of light peeps, adequate cooling for said light peeps, and regular missile launchers with adequate ammo. Rockets are there strictly because they're kinda the only thing left to spend tonnage on outside a larger engine. Normally I love larger engines, but in this one specific case there may be an argument to be said for cutting ten kph to get a one-time-only blap. Save the rockets strictly for when a light 'Mech shuts down in front of you or otherwise ends up standing still, mind their 50-meter minimum range, and then dump sixty damage of F@#$ YEW in their tailpipe. It's basically a once-per-game Cripple Target Light button, provided you HIT. Do not miss.

If you wanted to be worse against stealth bugs but better against almost everything else, you could go with a more typical MPLs/SRM-4 armament, like so. has the benefit of actually being moderately useful against heavier targets as well, where Rocket Peeps doesn't really have the ability to pressure larger targets. Rocket Peeps has longer range and if you wanted to play as a pseudo pocket sniper who also hunts stealth bugs then sure, but this one is more likely to net you kills in general whilst also being competent against enemy light 'Mechs with the MPL's short burn duration.

Edited by 1453 R, 25 September 2021 - 07:12 AM.

[martian]

Mark Yore, on 22 September 2021 - 06:37 AM, said:

Since the quirk changes I've noticed a greater proportion of lights in matches, leading to more wolf packs.

Lights always had a bit of fragility about them. Now that they have enough armour to take a couple of direct hits they seem to be less afraid of the other mechs, particularly the assaults. So more people bring lights, which means the chances of having four or more on a side goes up.

Do you think the armour changes have gone too far?

We are playing a game where 40-50 point (pin-point) enemy alpha strikes are nothing unusual.
If such alpha strike hits, it often kills or cripples a light 'Mech.

So no, I do not think that the armour changes have gone too far.

PeppaPig, on 23 September 2021 - 01:40 AM, said:

The position lights are in now is truly overpowered/nerfed/quirked, whatever you want to call it.

If the light 'Mechs are so overpowered, why is the Quick Play queue not full of the players deploying in the light 'Mechs? When I am deploying in my "Shard", "Firestorm" or "Street Cleaner", sometimes I am the only light 'Mech pilot of the 12 'Mechs.

Why do I usually see some known top players in Assaults (Blood Asp) or heavy 'Mechs (Night Gyr), but not in light 'Mechs?

PeppaPig, on 23 September 2021 - 01:40 AM, said:

Now we end up with genetical abhorrence that Caustic has become with even heavier mist occlusion and light friendly random architecture thrown around everywhere which followed suit from the demented rebuild of HPG, any competent light pilot can have a field-day with hit and run tactics or simply hiding under/behind the slower heavier chassis that have lost out on pretty much everything lights have gained in the misbegotten "balance" race initiated by PGI and now exemplified by the majority of the "cauldron".

You call those wide open spaces (often with no vegetation), so suitable for all kinds of medium and large (pulse) lasers and LRMs, i.e. weapons so often wielded by enemy medium, heavy and Assault 'Mechs, "light friendly"?

PeppaPig, on 23 September 2021 - 01:40 AM, said:

I do pilot lights, I do get good kill results, but because of the pin point accuracy and focus, rarely get good damage or match scores because of the pitiful rewards scheme, so I tend to play heavier weights because of the rewards.

Do not forget that the light 'Mechs can improve their Match Score by other means: Flanking, Scouting, Spotting, Capping, strategically placing UAVs, etc.
All those bonuses are much more difficult to achieve when piloting slower and heavier 'Mechs.

Just an hour ago I had a good game with my "Shard". Please note that I had just one kill and not so great damage, yet I achieved the highest score of all 24 players.




That was because I boosted my Match Score with all those aforementioned activites. Even the payout was quite good.

PeppaPig, on 23 September 2021 - 01:40 AM, said:

Lights and all other weights, need to be reassessed at a grass roots level, not perpetuating this disastrous series of balances that has only escalated problems with the game, especially for newcomers, the very people we should be encouraging to stay and eventually part with their money to keep the game going for everyone.

Actually, reducing the fragility of the light 'Mechs means that those newcomers will have a realistic chance of surviving long enough to learn how to pilot those light 'Mechs.

Isn't it great that PGI gave away this so OP 'Mech in December?
"Snowball"



Full size download link:
https://www.mediafir...esktop.jpg/file

---

But seriously ....

About three moths ago PGI gave away ACH-E Arctic Cheetah and JVN-11A Javelin. Both are pretty good light 'Mechs.

Today I have played quite a lot of games. I have seen that (free) Javelin approximately twice and that ACH-E not even once.

If light 'Mechs are so OP and pretty much every MWO player was given that pair of light 'Mechs in June, why I do not actually see them in the game?

Check the screen capture above, please:
4 Light 'Mechs:
"Shard", "Purifier", "Snowball" and Mist Lynx

1 Medium 'Mech: (and a low-end one at that)
Arctic Wolf

10 Heavy 'Mechs:
Dragon, "Ilya Muromets", Cauldron-Born, Champion, Catapult, Grand Dragon, Night Gyr, "Revenant", Madcat, Warhammer

9 Assault 'Mechs
King Crab, Daishi, King Crab, Atlas, Masakari, Blood Asp, "Kraken", "Kaiju", "Sleipnir"

Without some dedicated light 'Mech jocks effort, light 'Mechs would be marked as "Extinct Species" in MWO ...

[pattonesque]

"lights are OP please nerf" is just "I got killed by a light because I couldn't aim well enough to hit it" in slightly fewer words

[Curccu]

nitra, on 25 September 2021 - 05:51 AM, said:

i have also noticed their increased longevity in spectator mode. was watching a flea that is stripped, legged, and red, red orange ... he was hit with twin cssrm sixes. and tanked it. no death nor a single crit to any of his weapons. that light lived and engaged 2 other mechs before the match ended.

That is allmighty 20.4 damage spread literally all over the mech, that is nothing

Flea without any quirks, skilltree bonuses has 75 structure total. with skilltree 103,5 if I calculated correctly, so yeah 20,4 damage spread evenly isn't that much. but if instead of streaks that player had shot it with with any kind of AC20 to any other component than arm it would have died probably.

[caravann]

What really is a sad chapter is Hellspawn. Medium mech but performance is of a Raven.
You don't see any Hellspawn because it is a death trap. It has a bay door on its darn chest.
You though that the bay doors on catapult and archer was bad, this is a new level.
The Hellspawn is so bad that if you want missiles you have to put them into an arm who has a bunny ear who can not be removed and is permanent part of the design no matter if you have a missile battery or not.

There are better mechs than others. Ask anyone who used a mad2 if this assault is any better than a flea. Mad2 is another designed flaw since the mech is flatted like someone made a pancake out of it and wide like a barn that you can not shoot with both arms.

Light mechs is designed by tonnage and not by performance.

[pattonesque]

Dollars to donuts even a terrible assault like the MADII has a higher global AMS than a flea. Flea’s a great light mech but you have to do a lot of work in it to put up damage

[dubstep albatross]

pattonesque, on 25 September 2021 - 11:55 AM, said:

Dollars to donuts even a terrible assault like the MADII has a higher global AMS than a flea. Flea’s a great light mech but you have to do a lot of work in it to put up damage

I like both donuts and dollars. I also like data. I am not taking a stance on lights, I just like to make charts and do math things.

TL;DR Out of 794 games, the average (mean) match score between the Flea and the Marauder II are not statistically significantly different. Both underperformed with respect to a global mean match score of 241.

The null hypothesis is the true population average (mean) match score of Fleas and Marauder IIs are the equal. The alternative hypothesis is that they are not equal (two-tailed). There is not enough statistical evidence (Independent T-test, alpha 0.05, t-statistic -0.14, pvalue 0.88) to reject the null hypothesis and accept the alternative hypothesis.

Using data from 794 games, I have found that the average (mean) match score between the Flea and the Marauder II are the same (within 1 point). Observed were 264 Flea pilots with a mean match score of 215, and 217 Marauder II pilots with a mean match score of 216. For reference, the global average (mean) match score for those 794 games is 241. These are mostly tier 4 games, with some tier 5 and tier 3.

See fancy charts below.

I have included a table with a breakdown by each chassis variant because the FLE-17 performed better than all Marauder IIs on average, and the FLE-20 performed worst than most Marauder IIs on average. This is in the context of the 794 games. I did not do any further statistical tests on this broken down data.

[ThreeStooges]

dubstep albatross, on 25 September 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

I like both donuts and dollars. I also like data. I am not taking a stance on lights, I just like to make charts and do math things.

TL;DR Out of 794 games, the average (mean) match score between the Flea and the Marauder II are not statistically significantly different. Both underperformed with respect to a global mean match score of 241.

The null hypothesis is the true population average (mean) match score of Fleas and Marauder IIs are the equal. The alternative hypothesis is that they are not equal (two-tailed). There is not enough statistical evidence (Independent T-test, alpha 0.05, t-statistic -0.14, pvalue 0.88) to reject the null hypothesis and accept the alternative hypothesis.

Using data from 794 games, I have found that the average (mean) match score between the Flea and the Marauder II are the same (within 1 point). Observed were 264 Flea pilots with a mean match score of 215, and 217 Marauder II pilots with a mean match score of 216. For reference, the global average (mean) match score for those 794 games is 241. These are mostly tier 4 games, with some tier 5 and tier 3.

See fancy charts below.

I have included a table with a breakdown by each chassis variant because the FLE-17 performed better than all Marauder IIs on average, and the FLE-20 performed worst than most Marauder IIs on average. This is in the context of the 794 games. I did not do any further statistical tests on this broken down data.

Got any data on the is and clan jenners? I swear the jr7s all blow compared to nearly ever other light. Pretty sure only the Oxide of the is jenners is any good. I sold all my Jenners except for the f(c) to use as a test mech whenever pgi or some one makes a claim that energy weapon x has been improved.

[kuma8877]

caravann, on 25 September 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

What really is a sad chapter is Hellspawn. Medium mech but performance is of a Raven.
You don't see any Hellspawn because it is a death trap. It has a bay door on its darn chest.
You though that the bay doors on catapult and archer was bad, this is a new level.
The Hellspawn is so bad that if you want missiles you have to put them into an arm who has a bunny ear who can not be removed and is permanent part of the design no matter if you have a missile battery or not.

There are better mechs than others. Ask anyone who used a mad2 if this assault is any better than a flea. Mad2 is another designed flaw since the mech is flatted like someone made a pancake out of it and wide like a barn that you can not shoot with both arms.

Light mechs is designed by tonnage and not by performance.

The bay doors aren't an issue anymore. The Hellspawn is stronger now, considerably so. It's quickly becoming one of my favs, with several good variants and builds for them. The 7P and 8E are doing work now.

[dubstep albatross]

ThreeStooges, on 25 September 2021 - 04:25 PM, said:

Got any data on the is and clan jenners? I swear the jr7s all blow compared to nearly ever other light. Pretty sure only the Oxide of the is jenners is any good. I sold all my Jenners except for the f(c) to use as a test mech whenever pgi or some one makes a claim that energy weapon x has been improved.

TL;DR The Jenner true mean match score is not significantly different than all other lights (excluding Jenner IIC). The Jenner IIC true mean match score is statistically significantly different than all other lights (excluding Jenner). The Oxide true mean match score is not statistically significantly different than all other lights (excluding other Jenner and Jenner IIC).

The Jenner and the Jenner IIC do not show up much (compared to other mechs and other lights) in the 794 games -- only 188 times out of 19,056 possible. One look at the 95% CI bars on the barplot (upper right) confirms the TL;DR. I have included the test statistic and pvalue for the Oxide vs. All Other Lights (non-Jenner, non-Jenner IIC) in the bottom right. The Oxide does have a higher average (mean) match score than "OTHER", but sample and effect size are low, so there is not enough statistical evidence to say that the true average (mean) match score is different than for "OTHER".

Take the mech (chassis) breakdown data table with a grain of salt. The counts are so low for the variants and the match score values are skewed (left and right) in most cases (difference between mean and median). A few more games added to any given chassis and the median and mean could shift considerably.

See pretty pictures below.

[Storming Angel]

Guess we will never see that main account from peppa pig it seems.