33 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

pattonesque, on 03 October 2021 - 11:45 AM, said:

skilled players are constantly maneuvering with the intention of being able to engage from a favorable position

unskilled players are constantly maneuvering with the intention of not engaging. If you spectate them this is very apparent -- they will pass up easy shots, look away from enemies (not twisting, turning away and running) and in general try to delay the time between the start of the game and when they actually shoot/get shot as long as possible.

Mostly just wanted to highlight this, because Pattonesque has the whole core of it right here.

A good player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I bring harm to my enemy?"
A bad player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I stay alive?"

Tier doesn't matter. Hell, even measurable mechanical/execution skill doesn't matter. Without that mindset of "I'm here to wreck face and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum", you'll never get anywhere. Staying alive is important, yes - but bringing harm and vexation to your foe is more important. Staying alive is how you not-lose, bringing harm to your foes with efficaciousness and style is how you win.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 04 October 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

Mostly just wanted to highlight this, because Pattonesque has the whole core of it right here.

A good player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I bring harm to my enemy?"
A bad player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I stay alive?"

Tier doesn't matter. Hell, even measurable mechanical/execution skill doesn't matter. Without that mindset of "I'm here to wreck face and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum", you'll never get anywhere. Staying alive is important, yes - but bringing harm and vexation to your foe is more important. Staying alive is how you not-lose, bringing harm to your foes with efficaciousness and style is how you win.

yeah like, I would put it this way

staying alive is good and cool and dying immediately is bad and lame. however, I would much rather someone die first while doing 500 damage, securing a kill, and opening a few other components than die last while spraying 200 damage ineffectively and at the last minute.

[-VooDoo-]

The vast majority of feedback is useful and positive, which is what I was aiming for. I prefer honesty over prideful d*ck measuring.

I find that if I try and play a traditional role, say assault that is holding the front, I am always just left to die by mauling....or left behind to die by mauling. I hear people complain all the time about assaults not pushing in...and I'm pretty sure that's why. In solo there is a very real 'look out for yourself' thing going on. That is likely not a fixable problem...so I figured how do I stay alive longer to be more productive in this situation? This was really the driver behind the post. I was seeing skilled players who were not being caught off guard, being highly productive in varied situations...and I wanted to mimic that to the best of my ability.

I appreciate everyone's feedback...

[pattonesque]

Bullvii, on 04 October 2021 - 07:44 AM, said:

The vast majority of feedback is useful and positive, which is what I was aiming for. I prefer honesty over prideful d*ck measuring.

I find that if I try and play a traditional role, say assault that is holding the front, I am always just left to die by mauling....or left behind to die by mauling. I hear people complain all the time about assaults not pushing in...and I'm pretty sure that's why. In solo there is a very real 'look out for yourself' thing going on. That is likely not a fixable problem...so I figured how do I stay alive longer to be more productive in this situation? This was really the driver behind the post. I was seeing skilled players who were not being caught off guard, being highly productive in varied situations...and I wanted to mimic that to the best of my ability.

I appreciate everyone's feedback...

first I appreciate your curiosity here. not a lot of folks are as introspective!

Largely this comes down to map knowledge, game awareness, and knowing what you're trying to accomplish with your build.

Say you're running a traditional brawler AS7-S with an AC/20 and 4SRM6A. Your thought process once you drop should be like so:

1. Where do I want to go? In this case, you want to head to the part of the map where you are most likely to be able to engage the enemy at the shortest possible range, adjusting based on minimap information.

2. How do I want to get there? For a brawler Atlas you want to choose a route where you are exposed to the least amount of fire possible. Ideally they shouldn't even know you have an Atlas until you round a corner 20m away from them.

3. What do I want to do when I get there? In this case, you want to BOOM-twist-BOOM-twist while pushing against an enemy whom you can take out quickly and whom you outnumber. If you round a corner and you're face-to-face with, say, an ERLL Supernova, that's fantastic, because you can twist off most of his damage and he cannot effectively do the same.

4. How much does this rely on my teammates? You can do a lot with a solo push as an Atlas if you pick your engagements well, but the mech performs best when it's supported by teammates who can take advantage of not being shot at while you keep twisting. Oftentimes the best way to do this is to tell your teammates what you're running and where you're going right at the start of the match, and then tell them when and where you're about to push with a five-count before you do so.

If you find yourself rendered ineffective, you can check these steps and identify where you went wrong. Maybe you pushed into like five enemy mechs all by yourself -- that's an awareness problem and a communication problem with your teammates. Maybe you found yourself getting ruined by snipers before you could even push -- that's a positioning or pathing problem. The more you play with these ideas in mind, the more you can identify where things went wrong and the smaller your average mistake will be. These steps also apply to any mech in the game, really, but they help quite a bit with slower mechs who need to plan out moves in advance.

[Rkshz]

1453 R, on 04 October 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

Mostly just wanted to highlight this, because Pattonesque has the whole core of it right here.

A good player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I bring harm to my enemy?"
A bad player is one that gets into a game and says "how can I stay alive?"

Tier doesn't matter. Hell, even measurable mechanical/execution skill doesn't matter. Without that mindset of "I'm here to wreck face and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum", you'll never get anywhere. Staying alive is important, yes - but bringing harm and vexation to your foe is more important. Staying alive is how you not-lose, bringing harm to your foes with efficaciousness and style is how you win.

bad player is afraid of being shot
a good player is not afraid to trade armor
a skilled player shoots so that he doesn't get hit back

very often stomps happen because half of the players in the team are afraid of getting hit in the face - they do not understand that this is not an unusual shooter like Counter-Strike, in MWO they have armor, armor can be exchanged - the only question is who is accurate and smarter

[Moldur]

Bullvii, on 04 October 2021 - 07:44 AM, said:

The vast majority of feedback is useful and positive, which is what I was aiming for. I prefer honesty over prideful d*ck measuring.

I find that if I try and play a traditional role, say assault that is holding the front, I am always just left to die by mauling....or left behind to die by mauling. I hear people complain all the time about assaults not pushing in...and I'm pretty sure that's why. In solo there is a very real 'look out for yourself' thing going on. That is likely not a fixable problem...so I figured how do I stay alive longer to be more productive in this situation? This was really the driver behind the post. I was seeing skilled players who were not being caught off guard, being highly productive in varied situations...and I wanted to mimic that to the best of my ability.

I appreciate everyone's feedback...

I find the further you are outside of "the standard" of the match, the harder it is to play. Mediums and heavies are a good balance of mobility, armor, and firepower. Transitioning from those classes to an outlier, assaults or lights in QP, is eye opening.

I think putting it into words really helps make the problem click: Assaults do not necessarily have a mobility problem. They have an information problem.

As an assault, you likely have low situational awareness (SA) compared to your more mobile counterparts. Lights have endless speed and maneuverability. They can easily "paint a picture" of each match for themselves by seeing where everything is for freee. They can leave the team, come back, look at this flank, check out over here, etc. Whether or not they can put any damage down is a different story.

Assaults have the opposite problem. The match has changed by the time they finish moving. It requires using previous experience, map knowledge, and matches to build SA while still being "blind" on radar. There are other considerations like being a focus target as well. The armor is wasted if you peek just to see what's going on and lose 15% of your armor due to slow accel/decel and being focused. Again, the root of that unfavorable exchange is information, low SA. Assaults need to build their SA picture while minimally exposing themselves to focus fire, which is not necessarily to say they should just be waiting out the match, but inopportune peeks will eliminate the benefit of playing an assault to begin with. You really want to leverage your firepower, armor, and even the fact that you become a focus target to your team's advantage if you can.

I understand that sometimes you can't stop a really bad rotation or positioning, but you can try to mitigate. Also faster assaults start to play more like slow heavies, which I acknowledge, but the above is still very applicable for the majority of slow assaults.

Edited by Moldur, 04 October 2021 - 08:39 AM.

[YueFei]

Curccu, on 04 October 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

What is this epic power called lance formations that not even skilled players have achieved? does it automatically win a game?
I'm pretty sure time has passed old good roman formations and more flexible tactics usually wins, or maybe this year you can show at championships how this lance formation wrecks those so called skilled players.

The irony is that the Roman's formations were actually not at all like what we've seen in movies and TV shows. They generally didn't fight packed shoulder to shoulder, and fought in much looser formations, which facilitated the liberal use of hand-missiles and the ability to quickly cycle men in and out of combat. They actually glorified single combat. What a Roman soldier wanted most was to be conspicuously seen by his peers as he personally slays enemies on the field in an individualized duel.

This whole perception that Roman soldiers were like robots in tightly packed formations is just pop history, and not the reality.

[SlippnGriff]

Go fast turn left

[Commoners]

SlippnGriff, on 04 October 2021 - 09:28 AM, said:

Go fast turn left

We have to send the hit squad to stop this man from further divulging the true secrets of the MWO elite

[RickySpanish]

MechaGnome, on 04 October 2021 - 12:23 AM, said:

Now that skilled player must kill two.. and the team is down one.. hence the death spiral. And the skilled player is asking why they are losing..

In my opinion you have put the skilled player tag on the wrong team.

Not necessarily. The unskilled player exposed themselves in front of two enemy players - nobody asked them to. They simply did it because they're unskilled. So from the point of view of the better positioned player, they may as well get that shot in.

[-VooDoo-]

Moldur, on 04 October 2021 - 08:39 AM, said:

I find the further you are outside of "the standard" of the match, the harder it is to play. Mediums and heavies are a good balance of mobility, armor, and firepower. Transitioning from those classes to an outlier, assaults or lights in QP, is eye opening.

I think putting it into words really helps make the problem click: Assaults do not necessarily have a mobility problem. They have an information problem.

As an assault, you likely have low situational awareness (SA) compared to your more mobile counterparts. Lights have endless speed and maneuverability. They can easily "paint a picture" of each match for themselves by seeing where everything is for freee. They can leave the team, come back, look at this flank, check out over here, etc. Whether or not they can put any damage down is a different story.

Assaults have the opposite problem. The match has changed by the time they finish moving. It requires using previous experience, map knowledge, and matches to build SA while still being "blind" on radar. There are other considerations like being a focus target as well. The armor is wasted if you peek just to see what's going on and lose 15% of your armor due to slow accel/decel and being focused. Again, the root of that unfavorable exchange is information, low SA. Assaults need to build their SA picture while minimally exposing themselves to focus fire, which is not necessarily to say they should just be waiting out the match, but inopportune peeks will eliminate the benefit of playing an assault to begin with. You really want to leverage your firepower, armor, and even the fact that you become a focus target to your team's advantage if you can.

I understand that sometimes you can't stop a really bad rotation or positioning, but you can try to mitigate. Also faster assaults start to play more like slow heavies, which I acknowledge, but the above is still very applicable for the majority of slow assaults.

When I do get left behind in an assault I don't chase the circle, I know I can never catch up... I just turn and dig in and do as much damage to the incoming enemy as possible. It does make me think though in these situations, I would have likely done better to abondon the circle all together and find a spot off the beaten path and done my damage from there....I may get a light up my keister but it would likely be better than facing 80% of the enemy team alone. I don't want to oversell how terribad I am either, I'm a pretty good player....but I recognize I'm not at a Mr. Rkshz level...and that realization means I need to reconsider how I view the game and what's going on. I find myself reacting to bad situations rather than making good decisions ahead of time to not be in said situation.

Like they say in life, hang around people more successful than yourself, I will just need to find some talented friends in game and obsorb their good habits. : )

I appreciate the community feedback...

[pattonesque]

Bullvii, on 04 October 2021 - 10:32 AM, said:

When I do get left behind in an assault I don't chase the circle, I know I can never catch up... I just turn and dig in and do as much damage to the incoming enemy as possible. It does make me think though in these situations, I would have likely done better to abondon the circle all together and find a spot off the beaten path and done my damage from there....I may get a light up my keister but it would likely be better than facing 80% of the enemy team alone. I don't want to oversell how terribad I am either, I'm a pretty good player....but I recognize I'm not at a Mr. Rkshz level...and that realization means I need to reconsider how I view the game and what's going on. I find myself reacting to bad situations rather than making good decisions ahead of time to not be in said situation.

Like they say in life, hang around people more successful than yourself, I will just need to find some talented friends in game and obsorb their good habits. : )

I appreciate the community feedback...

if you do get left behind, and this happens to everyone at some point or another, digging in and left clicking is the best thing you can do.

[caravann]

YueFei, on 04 October 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

The irony is that the Roman's formations were actually not at all like what we've seen in movies and TV shows. They generally didn't fight packed shoulder to shoulder, and fought in much looser formations, which facilitated the liberal use of hand-missiles and the ability to quickly cycle men in and out of combat. They actually glorified single combat. What a Roman soldier wanted most was to be conspicuously seen by his peers as he personally slays enemies on the field in an individualized duel.

This whole perception that Roman soldiers were like robots in tightly packed formations is just pop history, and not the reality.

No and yes.

The elite soldiers used lots, lots of pawns/ slaves and cannon fodders and dead men walking to their graves.
After this collusion of pawns been killing each other the heroes came riding in glory.

The elephants were a real threat to the Roman formation who had pawns sandwich the heroes in the back center.

The main reason why is because the Roman formation was lanes stretching straight forward and the elephant could just walk straight forward in a line. Because the doctrine said that they should always stand their ground they had issues with reforming formations since this formation was based on trapping the opponent between 2 flanks and then close the gap. This formation could be increased based on how many lanes. The amount of people who were disposable made these armies based on numbers and the difference between the elite soldiers equipment and the pawns is that pawns would be happy if they got a spear and shield, in the Roman army they were mostly known for their short swords but later on these were replaced with longswords. Javelins was the unskilled man's arrow while trained archers were part of the Elite and protected in the back center.

The elite would then in the back center mowing down the opponents stuck in the main center.

The chariot as we know was mostly used to transport the heroes to the battlefield after the battle and by then whoever was alive is the ones who wrote the history but this is generally unknown territory. Noblemen had afford to own horses while the pawns were cut off their heads and medieval age was part of the evolution of using pawns to make heroes greater.

It is a mythology that Romans would use a turtle formation, the shields were used to push the enemies back than preventing the enemies to push forward. They wouldn't use short swords for a turtle formation, it's the opposite. They would use it to get even closer.

A formation known is phalanx who is only known that light and heavy armored riders would together launch at a field with no hills or forest. Other suggestion is that phalanx was a civil army, a horde of an angry mob killing everything in its path.

[-VooDoo-]

While certainly interesting, I think it maybe slightly off topic in a sense and I would rather not travel too far down rabbit holes. : )