17 replies to this topic

[pinetemplar]

When i started playing and watching some streams i was very surprised to here people calling pushes and spotting by E7, H6 and so on while in WoT almost everything is called by map features like "pushing the green", "defending the church", "scouting railroad". I was wondering why it is such a difference and the answer was pretty sad but simple - there are almost no features on MWO maps. Especially it is striking in a visual component like all the maps are painted in one color. Why there no thermal gazers on snow maps to splash some green and yellow/red there. Why there are no black, brown or even some exotic color rocks on green maps. Why there are no interestingly painted buildings on city maps. That would add some visual features to maps which will make them more fun without changing gameplay or big development investment.

My second point will be nascaring in Tier 4-5. There is a lot of game modes and enough maps that when you multiply them it creates an overwhelming amount of different maps(respawn points and objectives makes map different) that new player can get to a "new" map every time in the first like 100 games it feels like and even when i am getting used to the maps due to the lack of features(see first point) it is hard to actually learn them because some of them are just huge seas of one color. Especially this is bad for frozen maps: all the buildings are the same, all the terrain is the same - it feels like navigating endless sea of snowballs on a snow field. Which leads to people wondering around the map trying to find something to do and some maps being so huge that they actually can't find anyone creating nascar and all sorts of gaps in frontline and other bad things. I actually have an idea how to help new players with that. We have an AI on our voice coms telling us staff like base is under attack. Can we teach this AI to tell new players some directions like if you spawn on the map in light mech it can tell you something like "scout e7-e6 area" and highlight it on the map so new player can go there and not just aimlessly wonder around the map trying to figure out how this white snowy building is any different from 100 exactly the same ones he just passed by. Just make it an option to turn it of in a menu for experience people who doesn't need it but i think it will make people learning maps much easier if they chose to listen.

[martian]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

When i started playing and watching some streams i was very surprised to here people calling pushes and spotting by E7, H6 and so on while in WoT almost everything is called by map features like "pushing the green", "defending the church", "scouting railroad". I was wondering why it is such a difference and the answer was pretty sad but simple - there are almost no features on MWO maps.

In MWO many locations have their nicknames:

"Protecting the Airport" (River City)




"Pushing through the Tunnel" (Crimson Strait)




"Fighting near the DropShip" (Frozen City Classic)




"Patrolling under the Arc" (Tourmaline Desert)




"Guarding the Citadel" (River City)

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

Especially it is striking in a visual component like all the maps are painted in one color. Why there no thermal gazers on snow maps to splash some green and yellow/red there. Why there are no black, brown or even some exotic color rocks on green maps. Why there are no interestingly painted buildings on city maps. That would add some visual features to maps which will make them more fun without changing gameplay or big development investment.

I would say that this is a matter of opinion. I kinda like the maps as they are. Of course, adding some interesting buildings or stuff is always possible.

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

My second point will be nascaring in Tier 4-5. There is a lot of game modes and enough maps that when you multiply them it creates an overwhelming amount of different maps(respawn points and objectives makes map different) that new player can get to a "new" map every time in the first like 100 games it feels like and even when i am getting used to the maps due to the lack of features(see first point) it is hard to actually learn them because some of them are just huge seas of one color. Especially this is bad for frozen maps: all the buildings are the same, all the terrain is the same - it feels like navigating endless sea of snowballs on a snow field. Which leads to people wondering around the map trying to find something to do and some maps being so huge that they actually can't find anyone creating nascar and all sorts of gaps in frontline and other bad things. I actually have an idea how to help new players with that. We have an AI on our voice coms telling us staff like base is under attack. Can we teach this AI to tell new players some directions like if you spawn on the map in light mech it can tell you something like "scout e7-e6 area" and highlight it on the map so new player can go there and not just aimlessly wonder around the map trying to figure out how this white snowy building is any different from 100 exactly the same ones he just passed by. Just make it an option to turn it of in a menu for experience people who doesn't need it but i think it will make people learning maps much easier if they chose to listen.

The next time just take command, open the BattleGrid and order other players what area you wish them to scout.

"Scout order for E6-E7 sectors ..."

[pinetemplar]

martian, on 29 October 2021 - 05:09 AM, said:

IThe next time just take command, open the BattleGrid and order other players what area you wish them to scout.
"Scout order for E6-E7 sectors ..."

You completely misunderstood me. I need those direction LOL. I have zero clue most of the time where tf i am KEKW

[martian]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 05:18 AM, said:

You completely misunderstood me. I need those direction LOL. I have zero clue most of the time where tf i am KEKW

Oh, this.

Look, if you play MWO longer, you will learn the maps eventually.

Some maps are magnificently large, that's true, but the combat usually takes the place in the same general area. See the new Forest Colony map: It is big and nice, but it is a rare thing to fight enemy 'Mechs outside the central location. Ditto for Alpine Peaks and other large maps. After few battles you will find out where the enemy team usually comes from and what are the approaches to advantageous positions.

The important rule is: Learn from your mistakes! After being killed, always ask yourself a question: "What have did I do wrong? Perhaps I was the only 'Mech in the sight of enemy team? Perhaps I should think twice before stepping in this open terrain area?
Or maybe I rushed the enemy team too recklessly? Etc.

The important thing is not to repeat mistakes that killed you in previous missions.

[pinetemplar]

martian, on 29 October 2021 - 05:30 AM, said:

Oh, this.

Look, if you play MWO longer, you will learn the maps eventually.

Some maps are magnificently large, that's true, but the combat usually takes the place in the same general area. See the new Forest Colony map: It is big and nice, but it is a rare thing to fight enemy 'Mechs outside the central location. Ditto for Alpine Peaks and other large maps. After few battles you will find out where the enemy team usually comes from and what are the approaches to advantageous positions.

The important rule is: Learn from your mistakes! After being killed, always ask yourself a question: "What have did I do wrong? Perhaps I was the only 'Mech in the sight of enemy team? Perhaps I should think twice before stepping in this open terrain area?
Or maybe I rushed the enemy team too recklessly? Etc.

The important thing is not to repeat mistakes that killed you in previous missions.

It's all good and all but how many new players will play 10-20 patches with a dumb feeling of running around endless painted in one color maps and quit before even trying the game?

[martian]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 05:35 AM, said:

It's all good and all but how many new players will play 10-20 patches with a dumb feeling of running around endless painted in one color maps and quit before even trying the game?

Dunno.

On the other hand, one can hardly expect to master a quite difficult new game (i.e. MWO) in the course of 3-4 games.

The best thing is to stay with the flock and go with them, at least until you really know what you are doing. Even animals have this instinct.

[RickySpanish]

Marking the enemy spawn points on each map would be enough to establish what direction the battle is likely to start from. MWO is notoriously bad at presenting the user with tactical information, or allowing users to organize their team. It's 2021 and you still have to issue lance / company orders over a battlemap that covers your whole screen and takes ages to appear. Why not just allow the commander to point and click? The issue with maps is interesting, because most do have distinguishable features, BUT those features are all but impossible to read when you try to use the battlemap. MWO could definitely make use of improvements to command UI, perhaps by offering more indepth tactical information to anyone equipping the command computer (or wtf it's called).

[Nesutizale]

Why calling out the grid? Because its precice and even if the location dosn't has something that stands out you can still give people a location that they can find.

Its also free from any unusal nameing. Like one might call it the citadel, one calls it "the central building" the next one calls it whatever he feels. E3 will allways be E3.

Now for makeing the maps look nice. That is a different matter. MWO maps need not only a rework in map design, what they are currently working on. I agree that they could use some more variation with landmarks to look at but also on the technical side better textures, shaders and general optimazation.

[martian]

RickySpanish, on 29 October 2021 - 06:05 AM, said:

...
MWO could definitely make use of improvements to command UI, perhaps by offering more indepth tactical information to anyone equipping the command computer (or wtf it's called).

Is it not great that we have a pair of command tools that we can equip our BattleMechs with?

Battle Computer




Command Console



Unfortunately, the only thing that PGI has managed to do with them is that they work as overgrown Beagle Active Probe.

Their supposed "command functionality" is completely missing ...

[Nesutizale]

martian, on 29 October 2021 - 08:33 AM, said:

Their supposed "command functionality" is completely missing ...

Indeed. Just imagne that to use the command functions you would have to actualy bring a mech with either of those systems.
I did say go even further and limit the system that every target is shared all the time as long as anyone is seeing them.

This should only happen if a Command Mech is present. Else you would have to target and report it via the "wheel" menu to the rest of the team and even then it will still fade away as it does now.
Only if a Command Mech is around those flagged targets would stay active.

Mh maybe you could tie that in with indirect LRM fire. Only targets marked that way could be fired upon. A Command Mech again expands the system.

Brings it more in line with the lore, would adjust the LRM system, bring functionality to the Command Console and Command Mech functions and change battle behavior a bit as scouting is more interesting now.
Also reporting targets becomes a must, not a gimick.

Man in that case a C3 system would be something new, offering much better information sharing in the networking mechs.

Damn that idea needs some refinement but that could actualy be interesting.

PS: A drawback I can allready see is that either all people would feel forced to bring such a system onboard their mech or that teams might get an advantage as they know that one of them will actualy bring such a mech that would benefit the entire team.
As I said the idea needs refinement but could be interesting. In general its lower the amount of information you can get normaly and give an advanced information system to those who sacrifice some tonnage for it.

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 October 2021 - 10:46 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

When i started playing and watching some streams i was very surprised to here people calling pushes and spotting by E7, H6 and so on while in WoT almost everything is called by map features like "pushing the green", "defending the church", "scouting railroad". I was wondering why it is such a difference and the answer was pretty sad but simple - there are almost no features on MWO maps. Especially it is striking in a visual component like all the maps are painted in one color. Why there no thermal gazers on snow maps to splash some green and yellow/red there. Why there are no black, brown or even some exotic color rocks on green maps. Why there are no interestingly painted buildings on city maps. That would add some visual features to maps which will make them more fun without changing gameplay or big development investment.

Plenty of maps have features. If you think that isn't the case you probably need to spend more time looking.

Canyon network has places like Junkyard, Radio Tower , Kappa corner, Epsi corner and plenty of other labels.
Grim has Hamburger Hill, Gas Station etc. Tourmamine has CSJ hill, Stargate, Stage etc.. It depends on the team/players what is called what, there isn't necessarily uniformity.

People however will use grids because it is quite simply - obvious and clear. It just makes.basic, common, sense.


I'm not sure what the constant comparison to WoT is meant to achieve exactly. The games are different. The playerbase is different. If you're just gonna complain about everything as a "new player" what is the point exactly?

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H, on 29 October 2021 - 01:08 PM, said:

People however will use grids because it is quite simply - obvious and clear. It just makes.basic, common, sense.

"Okay, everybody form up around the refinery hill on the left."
"Which hill?"
"where?"
"Whose left?"

or

"Okay, everybody form up at E5."
"Affirmative."

Press "B". Minimap expands. Find E5. Press "B" again and roll out.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

justcallme A S H, on 29 October 2021 - 01:08 PM, said:

Plenty of maps have features. If you think that isn't the case you probably need to spend more time looking.

Canyon network has places like Junkyard, Radio Tower , Kappa corner, Epsi corner and plenty of other labels.
Grim has Hamburger Hill, Gas Station etc. Tourmamine has CSJ hill, Stargate, Stage etc.. It depends on the team/players what is called what, there isn't necessarily uniformity.

People however will use grids because it is quite simply - obvious and clear. It just makes.basic, common, sense.


I'm not sure what the constant comparison to WoT is meant to achieve exactly. The games are different. The playerbase is different. If you're just gonna complain about everything as a "new player" what is the point exactly?

It is not like pinetemplar's comparisons are even that accurate either. Watching streams from Circonflexes (who is practically an elite player) and Quickybaby, and replays from WoT replay archives, I see players call out grid positions far more often in WoT as well (using the in-game commands).

It is just so much better to call out coordinates and directions, rather than map features. Features should only be used to specify precisely where the event has occurred in battle (e.g. Is the enemy on top of the dock platform in Crimson, or below? Is the enemy on top of one of the smokestacks in Mining? In WoT is the enemy moving on or under the bridge in Live Oaks?).

Sure, you can transfer some ideas and skills from WoT to MWO to inspire yourself and others, but transfer the correct ones.

As the heaviest tanks/ mechs, for example: Angling your armour and keeping an eye for backstabbing fast lights is a good habit to take from WoT to MWO.
Performing a role as a meat shield is not a good habit to take from WoT, even if it is actually very effective in WoT. Doing this in MWO just wastes your armour.

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 29 October 2021 - 01:55 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

a pragmatic thought here:

while it makes sense to familiarize yourself with the maps, especially for FW or comp, in QP that is SO MUCH easier done with
"go right, shoot center-to-left" - no matter the map ;-)

[MechWarrior1931204]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

I was wondering why it is such a difference and the answer was pretty sad but simple - there are almost no features on MWO maps.

Again, false assumption by a 1)alt acc. troll 2)very noob, that makes statements without knowing

Pleanty of "named" spot in any mwo map.

But being you a newbie, you are already convinced that "there are no features" in maps.

What about gently asking "is there featured spots in map?" "what are they called?"

This would avoid you to be named a troll, or a "I know everything" noob for your actitude

martian, on 29 October 2021 - 05:09 AM, said:

In MWO many locations have their nicknames:

You forgot the boobies in grim

"THe saddle" in city

"The bridge" in HPG (old)

"the radar" in alpine

ecc.ecc.ecc.

But nope! There are no feature in mwo map, lol

Edited by MechWarrior1931204, 30 October 2021 - 06:10 AM.

[MechWarrior1931204]

pinetemplar, on 29 October 2021 - 05:18 AM, said:

You completely misunderstood me. I need those direction LOL. I have zero clue most of the time where tf i am KEKW

I strongly suggest you to join a team, or at least some dude in discord.

This would made things clearer. Learning MWO is great

[caravann]

Yes it is called asking for assistance

but it doesn't work because the assault gets the same message.

assistance of a light...of course why else do we have them?

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 October 2021 - 01:17 PM, said:

"Okay, everybody form up around the refinery hill on the left."
"Which hill?"
"where?"
"Whose left?"

You forgot:
...
"On what map?"

MechWarrior1931204, on 30 October 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

You forgot the boobies in grim

I wanted to keep it PG-12.

MechWarrior1931204, on 30 October 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

"THe saddle" in city

"The bridge" in HPG (old)

"the radar" in alpine

ecc.ecc.ecc.

But nope! There are no feature in mwo map, lol

You are right.

I just took a few quick pictures to demonstrate that even MWO maps have some notable "named" locations.