23 replies to this topic

[MTier Slayed Up]

Limited visibility, no stupid center crater where we NASCAR to death, communication actually is meaningful on this map. Why the hate? I'm sure there is a blatant explanation, and it's obvious to me but seems like everyone else hates it.

My only real gripe is the heat vision, and it's clear at this point that it needs a slight rework.

Lowered my bright and gamma to 30, and had heat vision on. The map is already dark, but heat vision brightens up my screen a bit too much for me. Which...Is what heat vision does basically.
Heat vision is a scope. You have black hot and white hot, but you can willingly change this.

Not so in game. Black hot are targets located a further away, while white hot are closer targets. Bit jarging for me since I personally run black hot on my thermals but whatever.

All I'm saying is, this map is perfect. No stupid death ball, cover is limited to squads at best, but I think thermals actually need to be looked at more critically.

If thermals would get a better overhaul, darker maps like HPG or Solaris would be immensely beneficial.

[John Bronco]

Sure it's a great map when you're in a MCII-1 or light gauss Faf.

[MTier Slayed Up]

John Bronco, on 06 November 2021 - 05:56 AM, said:

Sure it's a great map when you're in a MCII-1 or light gauss Faf.

Slow and methodical movements help. It's not a map where you can take a light lance and just roll people. (You actually could if you're really competent).

It's not a sniper oriented map. It's a map that demands attention to detail,

[martian]

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:00 AM, said:

It's not a sniper oriented map.

LOL

Thanks for a good laugh.

I remember it every time I eat 40-50-point pinpoint alpha delivered by some ECM sniper from across the map that I can not even see with my eyes (using any available vision mode) or on radar ...

The map is so great that the players are voting for any other map they can (old maps such as Forest Colony Classic included) rather than for the reworked Caustic.

[MTier Slayed Up]

martian, on 06 November 2021 - 06:19 AM, said:

LOL

Thanks for a good laugh.

I remember it every time I eat 40-50-point pinpoint alpha delivered by some ECM sniper from across the map that I can not even see with my eyes (using any available vision mode) or on radar ...

The map is so great that the players are voting for any other map they can (old maps such as Forest Colony Classic included) rather than for the reworked Caustic.

Gee wiz, a map where you have to change your settings and use either night or thermal? God forbid! Oh no! Woe is you!
[redacted] "turn right" strat no longer works on a map that isn't catered to it, of which I've complained about for years.

It really isn't sniper oriented. Know what that map reminds of? An airsoft/paintball run where my position actually matters for a change.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 07 November 2021 - 11:23 PM.

[MTier Slayed Up]

Speaking of which, if you can't see where the fire is, but they can see you, doesn't that tell you that it's pilot error on your end?

Critical thinking goes a long way.

[Nesutizale]

Map gets not voted enough for me to have a strong opinion on it. From the one or two plays my experiance is that you can get fired uppon much more.
You would have to get into cover much faster at these pillars in the middle but most people seam to do the "very big circle" Nascar now then even try to get through the middle and fighter around the pillars.

In that regard I say make the pillars much higher, so they block the view from the side lines, and make them stick closer together. Turning the middle into a knife-fighting zone without snipers or LRMs beeing able to disturbe the "killzone" inside.

Also increase heat to "hellish" levels so that your mech is allready running at 50% heat capacity. Have fun with your alphas you will imidiatly shut down or kill yourself, thank you

The result should be a map where you have to go in slow and carefull. Don't know if anyone remember the miirror labyrinth from funfair but that would be the closest thing, without the mirrors.

[martian]

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

Gee wiz, a map where you have to change your settings and use either night or thermal?

Thank you for your admission that the map sucks so much that you must mess with your display settings to see anything. You have already said that twice.

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

God forbid! Oh no! Woe is you! Sorry your braindead "turn right" strat no longer works on a map that isn't catered to it, of which I've complained about for years.

Your personal attacks are funny, but they can not serve as a serious argument.

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

It really isn't sniper oriented. Know what that map reminds of? An airsoft/paintball run where my position actually matters for a change.

Now you are just repeating what you already said.

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:45 AM, said:

Speaking of which, if you can't see where the fire is, but they can see you, doesn't that tell you that it's pilot error on your end?

Maybe it is because seeing for example Gauss Rifle shot on 800 m fired from an enemy 'Mech that is semi-hidden behind the rock and protected with its ECM and with thick clouds of smoke between mine and his position is not that easy.

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:45 AM, said:

Critical thinking goes a long way.

You are absolutely right. I am not alone who dislikes the reworked Caustic. Have some players' reactions:

"Its complete garbage. Another long range map that the snipers will say has cover but not actually use themselves."

"This new map is garbage. It's a literal sniper bowl, with rows of "lolcover" rocks creating corridors to shoot down."

"Just look at those sightlines, it's like mechs in a literal barrel..."

"Feels like the meta is being driven towards playing snipers or lights (lights being able to avoid sniper fire)."

"It looks like the early consensus is people don't like it much. I base this on noticing.... virtually nobody is picking it already when it comes up."

"Two giant rocks on each side of the map provide almost 360 degree angle of overwatch option for snipers, randomly placed rocks in the middle on the other hand dont provide any movement options for those who would want to avoid snipers and get closer to them, disencouraging anyone to even go to the middle in first place."

"People really hate it and I can see why. My three matches on this map were entirely unpleasant."

"I don't mind the layout but if PGI is going to open up the ranged shooting they need to reduce the haze effects so people who aren't exploiting can see the people who so easily seem to be able to see through it.".

[ScrapIron Prime]

This map comes with a golden rule… don’t fight in the center of the map. If your team obeys that rule, you will have a good match. If your team doesn’t obey that rule, you will get shot from more angles than you can count.

Similar to HPG, this map only rewards snipers if you let it. What it does instead is punish mechs that move at less than 60 kph, precisely because you have to stick to the outer edges of the map and a slow mech that isn’t a sniper will take a while to get into position… or be tempted to ignore the golden rule and take the shorter path to the fight… and get shot to pieces for that choice.

And faster mechs often adopt the “hide behind a rock and peek” approach. But on this map, the rock protects you from fire from one direction, while you can potentially be shot at from THREE directions. A change of tactics is required, and most folks would rather avoid the map than change their tactics.

[Nesutizale]

martian, on 06 November 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Thank you for your admission that the map sucks so much that you must mess with your display settings to see anything. You have already said that twice.

He isn't talking about adjusting your monitor, he is talking about thermal/night vision. Also I find them rather useless on that map to be frank.
Still I find his argument valid. Thermal and Night Vision are there to be used. Instead most people will just cank up the gamma value to allways see bright as day and every last pixel.

Personaly I am quite in favor to just remove the option of gamma settings at the extrem ranges. Should you need to set the gamma very high I suggest you buy a new monitor, your old one is bad for your eyes and shouldn't be used.
As for everyone else who does that is most likely just over competetiv

Its the same as with turning envoirment of or low. It opens the option to people just useing that for competetive reason and by doing so actualy limit the competion as everyone else has a blocked view while they don't.
Thats just haveing an advantage that shouldn't be there. Just optimize the game or set the min-requirments higher.
BUT that is a different story and I am vrey much alone with that opinion I guess.

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Maybe it is because seeing for example Gauss Rifle shot on 800 m fired from an enemy 'Mech that is semi-hidden behind the rock and protected with its ECM and with thick clouds of smoke between mine and his position is not that easy.

Well you could also do that and he most likely has the same problems, cause the smoke blocking your sight is also blocking his. You can also bring an ECM mech and you can go at the outside of the map. There are some places to hide and shoot, like the other guy does.

Quote

You are absolutely right. I am not alone who dislikes the reworked Caustic. Have some players' reactions:

My problem with the map is that the nascar circle has just gotten bigger instead of beeing removed from it. So it didn't archive its original goal.

As for my idea of how to deal with it you can read my comment above or at the specific map talk forum.

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

He isn't talking about adjusting your monitor, ...

"Lowered my bright and gamma to 30", he said.
"a map where you have to change your settings", he said.

I do not consider the necessity of changing the settings to be the sign of a map well-made.

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

... he is talking about thermal/night vision. Also I find them rather useless on that map to be frank.
Still I find his argument valid. Thermal and Night Vision are there to be used. Instead most people will just cank up the gamma value to allways see bright as day and every last pixel.

Personaly I am quite in favor to just remove the option of gamma settings at the extrem ranges. Should you need to set the gamma very high I suggest you buy a new monitor, your old one is bad for your eyes and shouldn't be used.
As for everyone else who does that is most likely just over competetiv

Its the same as with turning envoirment of or low. It opens the option to people just useing that for competetive reason and by doing so actualy limit the competion as everyone else has a blocked view while they don't.
Thats just haveing an advantage that shouldn't be there. Just optimize the game or set the min-requirments higher.
BUT that is a different story and I am vrey much alone with that opinion I guess.

Thank you for telling us how would you change MWO. Do not forget to post it in the "Feature Suggestions" section.

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

Well you could also do that and he most likely has the same problems, cause the smoke blocking your sight is also blocking his. You can also bring an ECM mech and you can go at the outside of the map. There are some places to hide and shoot, like the other guy does.

So the solution for the sniper problem is to deploy as a sniper in the opposite corner of the map? Have you considered that some players could deploy in 'Mechs armed with shorter ranged weapons, sometimes even without ECM?

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

My problem with the map is that the nascar circle has just gotten bigger instead of beeing removed from it. So it didn't archive its original goal.

As for my idea of how to deal with it you can read my comment above or at the specific map talk forum.

Surely I will not miss such interesting post.

[Verilligo]

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

Well you could also do that and he most likely has the same problems, cause the smoke blocking your sight is also blocking his. You can also bring an ECM mech and you can go at the outside of the map. There are some places to hide and shoot, like the other guy does.

Doesn't work on account of not knowing ahead of time which map you'll be fighting on. You have to choose to snipe ahead of time, specifically with an ECM-bearing mech. That's not to say that you will fail if you don't come with that specific mech, but you can't really just tell someone to do a thing that requires seeing into the future.

I think the bigger problem with the map is the same thing that has always been the problem with Caustic, it's just very flat and open. I know that sounds like a silly thing to say on account of the previous Caustic having the caldera in the middle, but the caldera was flat as well, not to mention cursed with elevated heat gain. You just had the rim of the caldera serving as a barrier between the two flat plains, allowing a direct path for shorter-ranged mechs to transition without being quite as singled out, presuming the center of the caldera wasn't being focused. That's what decided more than a few games of Caustic, if you weren't watching the center of the caldera then the enemy could shortcut through and bring guns to bear, often in your back.

Now that the caldera is effectively removed, transitioning through the center of the map is a death trap. If you happen to have short range weaponry, that leaves you with cycling around the edge of the map. This would work, but because rocks only block fire (and more importantly detection) from one side, you can't really make a safe advance in either clockwise or counter-clockwise direction. This doesn't mean that brawlers are impossible to play on the map, but it's demotivating and increases your chances of taking enough damage that you have to enter the cautious phase of the match much earlier than normal, leaving a bad taste in the mouth.

You could fix this by simply adding more rocks and barriers around the map, but then snipers and mid-range mechs stop having many lines to work with, which I think was why the map went through a revision process in the first place. Improving the map, I feel, requires adding verticality back into its design. The best way I can see of doing that while keeping with the theme of the map and doing something original would be to have a cave system underneath the main map, accessible from both the rim and center of the map. Something claustrophobic and smoke-filled that allows short-range mechs to transition across or for light mechs to make hit-and-run maneuvers through. Have rock formations on the surface push through down to the cave system underneath so that the lay of the land stays somewhat consistent. So long as you can get down or get out without a major chokepoint with firing line opportunities in the way that the old HPG basement suffered from, it should make for a viable set of routes and you can just borrow biome materials from Solaris' cave map melded with what Caustic has.

[martian]

Verilligo, on 06 November 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

...

I like your post.

Verilligo, on 06 November 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

You could fix this by simply adding more rocks and barriers around the map, but then snipers and mid-range mechs stop having many lines to work with, which I think was why the map went through a revision process in the first place. Improving the map, I feel, requires adding verticality back into its design. The best way I can see of doing that while keeping with the theme of the map and doing something original would be to have a cave system underneath the main map, accessible from both the rim and center of the map. Something claustrophobic and smoke-filled that allows short-range mechs to transition across or for light mechs to make hit-and-run maneuvers through. Have rock formations on the surface push through down to the cave system underneath so that the lay of the land stays somewhat consistent. So long as you can get down or get out without a major chokepoint with firing line opportunities in the way that the old HPG basement suffered from, it should make for a viable set of routes and you can just borrow biome materials from Solaris' cave map melded with what Caustic has.

So something like the "Ishiyama Caves" map? I would like something like that as underground part of the map. Something like this, but artistically different:



But realistically the best what we can expect is PGI throwing a few rocks in the middle of the map. I guess it would be better than nothing.

[Nesutizale]

martian, on 06 November 2021 - 08:33 AM, said:

"Lowered my bright and gamma to 30", he said.
"a map where you have to change your settings", he said.
I do not consider the necessity of changing the settings to be the sign of a map well-made.

Sorry I missed the "lower gamma" thing. Yes that is indeed something that shouldn't be necessary.
On the other side he is still right about using Thermal or Night Vision can be very well be part of the map design.
So you both are right in a way

Quote

Thank you for telling us how would you change MWO. Do not forget to post it in the "Feature Suggestions" section.

Allready did

Quote

So the solution for the sniper problem is to deploy as a sniper in the opposite corner of the map? Have you considered that some players could deploy in 'Mechs armed with shorter ranged weapons, sometimes even without ECM?

Oh wow did I miss something? For years it was a "gid gudd" attitude around here and now people are asking for fair maps? Funny how things change.
While I agree that most maps should be designed to cater to most people there should be some maps who are more specialised. Battles aren't fair and specialised mechs should get punished every now and then. That is how war is. You go for just one thing, then you should every now and then run into the problem that your loadout dosn't work.
That shouldn't be the rule, just happen every now and then.

Verilligo, on 06 November 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

Doesn't work on account of not knowing ahead of time which map you'll be fighting on. You have to choose to snipe ahead of time, specifically with an ECM-bearing mech. That's not to say that you will fail if you don't come with that specific mech, but you can't really just tell someone to do a thing that requires seeing into the future.

No its a risk you take but whining about it later isn't the maps fault, its you bringing a mech that dosn't work on that map and not voting on the map that works for you.
Still the same thing is true for your enemy. He also dosn't know but if he votes for the map and you don't...well that happens. Still not the maps fault.

Quote

Rest of your idea

That is pretty much my thought too.

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

Sorry I missed the "lower gamma" thing. Yes that is indeed something that shouldn't be necessary.

Finally we are getting somewhere.

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

Oh wow did I miss something? For years it was a "gid gudd" attitude around here and now people are asking for fair maps? Funny how things change.

There is a difference when some player deploys in a 'Mech with long-ranged weapons on map suitable for such playstyle, and the other player deploys with short- and medium-ranged weapons on the same map? The sniper can start dishing out the damage much sooner than other types of 'Mechs. The former is going to win such duel.

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

While I agree that most maps should be designed to cater to most people there should be some maps who are more specialised. Battles aren't fair and specialised mechs should get punished every now and then. That is how war is. You go for just one thing, then you should every now and then run into the problem that your loadout dosn't work.
That shouldn't be the rule, just happen every now and then.

We are not talking about battles, we are talking about PC game.

The maps should be roughly balanced because otherwise players, who feel getting shafted too often, might switch to some different game.

If some players feel that they are being treated unfairly, they probably will not spend as much money on such game. The might even leave. Almost as if I am describing the history of MWO ...

Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

No its a risk you take but whining about it later isn't the maps fault, its you bringing a mech that dosn't work on that map and not voting on the map that works for you.
Still the same thing is true for your enemy. He also dosn't know but if he votes for the map and you don't...well that happens. Still not the maps fault.

For example Gauss Rifles work on all maps because of their range and projectile speed, while when fighting close they hit almost as hard as AC-20. Deploying with Gauss Rifle on Caustic is better than deploying with AC-20.

[Nesutizale]

martian, on 06 November 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

There is a difference when some player deploys in a 'Mech with long-ranged weapons on map suitable for such playstyle, and the other player deploys with short- and medium-ranged weapons on the same map? The sniper can start dishing out the damage much sooner than other types of 'Mechs. The former is going to win such duel.

We are not talking about battles, we are talking about PC game.

The maps should be roughly balanced because otherwise players, who feel getting shafted too often, might switch to some different game.

If some players feel that they are being treated unfairly, they probably will not spend as much money on such game. The might even leave. Almost as if I am describing the history of MWO ...

For example Gauss Rifles work on all maps because of their range and projectile speed, while when fighting close they hit almost as hard as AC-20. Deploying with Gauss Rifle on Caustic is better than deploying with AC-20.

I kinda agree with your sentiment. There is also another side to this.

One part is that bringing a specialised mech, knowing that there will be a map voting that might not go you way, is a risk you take willingly and knowingly.

Second point is mixed builds. Yes they performe in general worse then sepcialised builds but you care less about the map you play on. Every map is your map and you allways will have a mech that can performe there.
PS: Haveing a good secondary weapon to complement your build allready helps a lot.

Third point and the hardest one. Find a way to make your build work in the worst situation.
I remember bringing a brawler to the old LRM party map of Polar. You know what? You can make it work.
Same goes for the new caustic map. Yes it preferes snipers but there are parts of the map where you can brawl, if you are patient.

I think the best way of doing things is to have a good mix.
Have 80% of the maps beeing balanced and 10% sniper and 10% brawl. So in most of the cases its good for everyone and 10% of times it will be either "gg easy" or "I am ******"

As for player rendition and attracktiveness. That is also two sided. Yes at the beginning you need things to be balanced and smooth. Later on the game needs some more hard stuff. Something peopel can grind their teeth into so the game stays interesting.
Something like that could be archived by manipulating map voting by haveing different pools of maps to vote for depending on the Tier most of the players of a team are from.
Like T5-3 are getting very easy to play maps with lots of balance, clear readable pathways to the enemy and spots to hide and fight over.
T3+2 are starting to become more interesting with more complex maps.
T2+1 are getting mostly maps where you need to know what you do and bringing a specialised build could realy **** you up but those players are good enought to take it as a challange and get out on top.

[Tarl Cabot]

DrtyDshSoap, on 06 November 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

Lowered my bright and gamma to 30, and had heat vision on. The map is already dark, but heat vision brightens up my screen a bit too much for me. Which...Is what heat vision does basically.

Heat vision is a scope. You have black hot and white hot, but you can willingly change this.

Gee wiz, a map where you have to change your settings and use either night or thermal?

Snippet

martian, OP default monitor/system settings must have some weird setting, My game Gamma is set at 65%/Nvidia 1.0 and using Heat Vision does essentially make mechs at a specific range stick out, black silhouettes against a greyish background. And many snipers will also have advanced zoom but to hit mechs at range advance zoom is not needed.

Heat vision

• Below 325m - Mechs are whiter than the background.
  
• Around 340m - mechs start to BLEND into the background into the land. If their silhouettes is against the sky then they stand out.
  
• At around 520m+ - mechs start to turn black against lighter landscape. And mechs definitely STAND OUT.

As mentioned, I did not need to make further adjustments with my current Gamma setting in game (at .62) and my Nvidia UI has gamma set at 1.0. I think most of us do not go to Heat Vision due to how mechs aware at 500m and under.


Mechs are all 500m+ away on the screenshot below. The Jenner on the bullseye is almost 1300m away. I do agree though that several of the pillars need to be taller. Many of my games on the map generally has us going wide but rarely is it a nascar to different sides. The few times it has happened I think we all were more surprised than not, even then it is a reverse nascar.

What is interesting is that I usually spawn on the side where one would drop in the Testing Grounds. I THINK I may have spawned once.. may be twice on the other side.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 November 2021 - 04:38 PM.

[MTier Slayed Up]

So allow me to respond to everything.

Martian -

Take any dark map. HPG, Mining, Solaris, Ruby (Kind of, weird map), Caves have been mentioned for 1v1s but no one plays that, and River City's weird day/night cycle (Is that still a thing? idk).

All those mentioned above, I'd have to mess with my settings. Not really a big deal to me since every game offers that option? So what's the argument? Poorly lit areas? Sounds like a dark map is actually doing what it's suppose to be doing. Being dark. Like...******* duh dude. The main gripe is that I want thermals and night vision to actually work the way they are suppose to as opposed to messing with my brightness and gamma. Not sure what your logic is, if there is any.

It's not sniper oriented, it's movement. I'll keep repeating it [redacted]. Again, what you described earlier is still pilot error. [redacted]

In regards to everyone else after basically skimming, it looks like some basic agreement with me in some form or another. I just want someone to actually look at both Thermals and Night Vision critically. I can really really go into more detail of the two on how the two should operate with both light and heat but yeah. Game mechanics.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 07 November 2021 - 11:21 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

When team spread and hide in rocks we have some good match.
When team going to some big rock in border (take the hill) - its not good.
Assaults and fat are being shoot badly.
Laser vomit good, snipers usually bad.

Still need experience here.

[Thorqemada]

Wow, i have never seen Heatvision giving a black silhouette - i used it rarely (unlike predator vision that i used often) and when watching streamers they usually also have white silhouettes of targets afair.

In regard to viewrange i remember way back when i played CW/FP i had a Dual Gauss Mech with Advanced Zoom and killed Mechs at more than 2km distance (i think up to 2,5km) that still appeared as tiny grey pixel in my adv. zoom view..

It was not efficient but i knew i would be dead anyway as soon the enemy would attack so why not kill someone first and make some use of my ammo (i allways tried to kill at least one mech per match and almost allways that worked).

My understanding is that they changed something after i did so that they called a bug in regard to the damage of gauss rounds at way beyond optimal range and some of the people i killed accused me of cheating but they never avoided my shots or broke los and kept staying in my firing line only at increasing distance.

As it was highly inefficient i felt it was already unrewarding enough and did not need a change but hey:
Woe you who seeks some success against people who are not meant to be killed (by self esteem and/or patronage)...

And advanced zoom significantly increased my W/L and K/D so it made a difference!

Edited by Thorqemada, 07 November 2021 - 01:58 AM.