87 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

i honestly like the new Caustic. the only negative though is that the cap circle in Domination mode is hard to pick out. that can be easily fixed by darkening or changing the color of the circle. other than that its a good change as it cuts on the nascar and offers terrain for many different types of play.

[Brizna]

I actually agree with OP, of course I haven't played new Caustic much with it being so unpopular but all games I've played were neither a nascar nor a snipe feast, it was something in the middle. Keeping everyone at their toes, nascar guys couldn't just press "W"+"A" and snipers couldn't simply camp.

In my opinion it's a hard map to play but not a bad map, so pay attention.

PS: Mandatory GITGUD!

[VeeOt Dragon]

Caustic was never a popular map to begin with. its a hot map that never really supported the brawl play style so it wasn't picked much. hell you can't play more than 10 matches without running into Solaris or Mining multiple times. i'll take any map over those two.

[Curccu]

VeeOt Dragon, on 25 November 2021 - 06:31 AM, said:

Caustic was never a popular map to begin with. its a hot map that never really supported the brawl play style so it wasn't picked much. hell you can't play more than 10 matches without running into Solaris or Mining multiple times. i'll take any map over those two.

What you mean? Old caustic was one of those maps that was very easy to get into brawl range without taking any damage before it most of the times. This new one well you are fd if you got brawler, or at least that is my minimal XP of the map... getting that map picked is rarer than golden Uller.

[Blood Rose]

I have to agree, New Caustic, along with a lot of the redesigns, does seem to favour snipers. In fact, looking at all the redesigns we have:
Caustic: sniping
HPG: Sniping
River City: Mixed, depends on where you end up fighting.
Frozen City: ....Sniping. Really? A city map and you cant even let Brawlers have it?
Bog: Mixed but certainly leans towards sniping
Terra Therma: I cant really say but it does feel a bit more mixed. Utterly hates Missile Boats though
Polar Highlands: Sniping. Mixed, but it really loves PPFLD snipers. Again.

Out of all of the redesigns a grand total of two dont favour, or at least advantage, snipers. Compared to the 4 that are pretty much built for snipers. Thats awful.
Add in the other maps, most of which feel like they favour sniping too and you can really feel the meta unfold. Of course, back in early beta there was a feature that negated this - Convergence. A feature that meant it took a few seconds for your Mech to adjust its weapon focus from point A to point B, and the farther the distance the longer the delay. It meant snipers popping out from behind cover had to choose between firing early and scattering damage or holding for a few seconds and risking return fire for that sweet, sweet, PP needle damage.
Of course, it was removed and ever since then there have been numerous patches to try and 'fix' the PPFLD meta, from Ghost Heat to emergency armour buffs, you name it. All this could be resolved with a few lines of code though.
Bring back convergence. Force snipers to actually take a moment to range in and risk taking a bit of damage in return. As a bonus, holding targets could then benefit other members of your team because weapons could be set to stay 'ranged in' on a target you had a lock on, but losing the lock would mean your weapons adjusted back to aiming at whatever your crosshairs were pointed at - in most snipers case a wall or slope 10 to 30 metres infront of them.
Consider it.

[pbiggz]

Blood Rose, on 25 November 2021 - 05:58 PM, said:

I have to agree, New Caustic, along with a lot of the redesigns, does seem to favour snipers. In fact, looking at all the redesigns we have:
Caustic: sniping
HPG: Sniping
River City: Mixed, depends on where you end up fighting.
Frozen City: ....Sniping. Really? A city map and you cant even let Brawlers have it?
Bog: Mixed but certainly leans towards sniping
Terra Therma: I cant really say but it does feel a bit more mixed. Utterly hates Missile Boats though
Polar Highlands: Sniping. Mixed, but it really loves PPFLD snipers. Again.

Out of all of the redesigns a grand total of two dont favour, or at least advantage, snipers. Compared to the 4 that are pretty much built for snipers. Thats awful.
Add in the other maps, most of which feel like they favour sniping too and you can really feel the meta unfold. Of course, back in early beta there was a feature that negated this - Convergence. A feature that meant it took a few seconds for your Mech to adjust its weapon focus from point A to point B, and the farther the distance the longer the delay. It meant snipers popping out from behind cover had to choose between firing early and scattering damage or holding for a few seconds and risking return fire for that sweet, sweet, PP needle damage.
Of course, it was removed and ever since then there have been numerous patches to try and 'fix' the PPFLD meta, from Ghost Heat to emergency armour buffs, you name it. All this could be resolved with a few lines of code though.
Bring back convergence. Force snipers to actually take a moment to range in and risk taking a bit of damage in return. As a bonus, holding targets could then benefit other members of your team because weapons could be set to stay 'ranged in' on a target you had a lock on, but losing the lock would mean your weapons adjusted back to aiming at whatever your crosshairs were pointed at - in most snipers case a wall or slope 10 to 30 metres infront of them.
Consider it.

First

the new maps don't "favour sniping", they allow sniping. That's more than can be said for most of the old maps. Since we spent so many years in the LowreyBalance/PaulBalance^tm regime, I understand this change may come as a shock to you, but, once upon a time, snipers were good, but people did the unthinkable... they complained, and paul does not like complaining so he nerfed snipers so hard they're only starting to be viable with heavy and assault mechs now. He nerfed them so hard they were basically not a meaningful feature of the game for almost 8 years.

The new approach to map design and balance isn't favouring snipers. The old approach was punishing them. That's the difference, and you can't really advocate for straight up punitive nerfs to a play style because you don't like it.

As for your convergence points. I get where you are coming from. I will push back on it though for a few reasons, the most important being, you will not like it. Having shots go *not where you clicked* feels super gross. People will generally reject it, and they would be right to. This isn't a dice roll table top wargame, its a shooter. Your bullets should go where you shoot them. Sometimes you'll miss but if you do, its because you shot wrong, not because a few lines of code put your 70 point alpha into the side of a mountain instead of the side of a mech for *reasons*.

You're annoyed because you don't know how to deal with snipers. You don't know how to deal with them because you haven't really had to for years. Instead of posting, I recommend figuring out ways to stop them. For one thing, they're typically slow, fragile builds. They have low DPS output (the trade off for having a high alpha) and will not hold up to sustained fire, really at any range. These are paper mechs. They aren't hard to kill.

[ScrapIron Prime]

And to that point...

HPG... it doesn't FAVOR snipers. yes, it has lots of high ground for them to stand on, but it encourages them to separate from their team to do it! While a vapor eagle can move fast enough to jump jet to safety, the low DPS fatties that set up on the walls are just FOOD for any fast movers that come by, as are the vapor eagles that refuse to flee or waited too long. My KDR in medium mechs is climbing steadily thanks to this map serving me an all-i-can-brawl sniper buffet!

Caustic... i love this map. the rule of this map is "don't fight in the middle, its a kill zone." Obey that rule and you have fun, and the snipers don't have any power over you. But if you Potato on into the middle... well... you asked for it.

Frozen City / River City... come on, these are not sniper-fest maps. Yes, there is open ground to cross, but once you do you have oodles of hard cover again. Sometimes you just have to consider that brawlers who move slower than 60kph have a "kick me" sign on them. Okay, okay, wait, almost in position, almost, getting there, just a little longer, almost... aw man I got shot! This game is biased against me!

Viridian Bog... yes, if you stand on top of a hill, you can get shot. if you fail to use the even-more-ample-than-before ground cover, you can get shot. If you don't, this map is pretty good for brawling, mid range builds, and snipers alike. Its well balanced and a slight improvement over the old.

...

You know, I'm just sensing that Blood Rose doesn't like getting shot from beyond the range of whatever weapons they're packing, and that any time it happens it must be because the map is "sniper friendly". Huh.

[C337Skymaster]

Blood Rose, on 25 November 2021 - 05:58 PM, said:

I have to agree, New Caustic, along with a lot of the redesigns, does seem to favour snipers. In fact, looking at all the redesigns we have:
Caustic: sniping
HPG: Sniping
River City: Mixed, depends on where you end up fighting.
Frozen City: ....Sniping. Really? A city map and you cant even let Brawlers have it?
Bog: Mixed but certainly leans towards sniping
Terra Therma: I cant really say but it does feel a bit more mixed. Utterly hates Missile Boats though
Polar Highlands: Sniping. Mixed, but it really loves PPFLD snipers. Again.

Out of all of the redesigns a grand total of two dont favour, or at least advantage, snipers. Compared to the 4 that are pretty much built for snipers. Thats awful.
Add in the other maps, most of which feel like they favour sniping too and you can really feel the meta unfold. Of course, back in early beta there was a feature that negated this - Convergence. A feature that meant it took a few seconds for your Mech to adjust its weapon focus from point A to point B, and the farther the distance the longer the delay. It meant snipers popping out from behind cover had to choose between firing early and scattering damage or holding for a few seconds and risking return fire for that sweet, sweet, PP needle damage.
Of course, it was removed and ever since then there have been numerous patches to try and 'fix' the PPFLD meta, from Ghost Heat to emergency armour buffs, you name it. All this could be resolved with a few lines of code though.
Bring back convergence. Force snipers to actually take a moment to range in and risk taking a bit of damage in return. As a bonus, holding targets could then benefit other members of your team because weapons could be set to stay 'ranged in' on a target you had a lock on, but losing the lock would mean your weapons adjusted back to aiming at whatever your crosshairs were pointed at - in most snipers case a wall or slope 10 to 30 metres infront of them.
Consider it.

The reason River City, Frozen City, and Terra Therma feel differently from Caustic, HPG (gag), and Polar Highlands, is because they were updated by a completely different map-making team. Viridian Bog finally took the lessons of the previous three maps to heart and only made minor updates.

As someone who's been arguing for Convergence to be completely removed, I'll support having it slowly adjust (it's more accurate to the Lore that way, technically. I was arguing for completely predictable firing behavior, though, to eliminate any and all randomness and allow this "player skill" that everyone keeps raving about).

pbiggz, on 26 November 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

First

the new maps don't "favour sniping", they allow sniping. That's more than can be said for most of the old maps. Since we spent so many years in the LowreyBalance/PaulBalance^tm regime, I understand this change may come as a shock to you, but, once upon a time, snipers were good, but people did the unthinkable... they complained, and paul does not like complaining so he nerfed snipers so hard they're only starting to be viable with heavy and assault mechs now. He nerfed them so hard they were basically not a meaningful feature of the game for almost 8 years.

The new approach to map design and balance isn't favouring snipers. The old approach was punishing them. That's the difference, and you can't really advocate for straight up punitive nerfs to a play style because you don't like it.

As for your convergence points. I get where you are coming from. I will push back on it though for a few reasons, the most important being, you will not like it. Having shots go *not where you clicked* feels super gross. People will generally reject it, and they would be right to. This isn't a dice roll table top wargame, its a shooter. Your bullets should go where you shoot them. Sometimes you'll miss but if you do, its because you shot wrong, not because a few lines of code put your 70 point alpha into the side of a mountain instead of the side of a mech for *reasons*.

You're annoyed because you don't know how to deal with snipers. You don't know how to deal with them because you haven't really had to for years. Instead of posting, I recommend figuring out ways to stop them. For one thing, they're typically slow, fragile builds. They have low DPS output (the trade off for having a high alpha) and will not hold up to sustained fire, really at any range. These are paper mechs. They aren't hard to kill.

So on old HPG, Polar, and Caustic, I had some GREAT sniping matches pre-update. Hell, on HPG, I leveled quite a few of my Mist Lynx and Shadow Cats from the perimeter wall, where I could snipe from behind hard cover with ECM to keep people from figuring out where the shots came from. I used to LOVE being able to crest a hill in my Adder-Prime on Polar, and nail someone 1500m away. And I could do it from anywhere on the map! Caustic had some excellent perimeter mounds which gave you an excellent view of the caldera and two sides of it, allowing you to lay down covering fire over half the map.

So to say "sniping is now allowed" is patently false. The only gamemode which restricted its use (and still does so) is Domination. Arguably, I would say that game mode has done more harm to "sniping" and much more harm to having fun and interestingly variable matches than any other game mode presented to us (including Escort). Domination removes player agency, and requires a closely-spaced brawling match which invariably dissolves into a NASCAR around the central point due to the short distances and reduced cover (even if there are plenty of hard structures, none of them can fit 12 'mechs behind it).

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 November 2021 - 08:55 AM, said:

And to that point...

HPG... it doesn't FAVOR snipers. yes, it has lots of high ground for them to stand on, but it encourages them to separate from their team to do it! While a vapor eagle can move fast enough to jump jet to safety, the low DPS fatties that set up on the walls are just FOOD for any fast movers that come by, as are the vapor eagles that refuse to flee or waited too long. My KDR in medium mechs is climbing steadily thanks to this map serving me an all-i-can-brawl sniper buffet!

Caustic... i love this map. the rule of this map is "don't fight in the middle, its a kill zone." Obey that rule and you have fun, and the snipers don't have any power over you. But if you Potato on into the middle... well... you asked for it.

Frozen City / River City... come on, these are not sniper-fest maps. Yes, there is open ground to cross, but once you do you have oodles of hard cover again. Sometimes you just have to consider that brawlers who move slower than 60kph have a "kick me" sign on them. Okay, okay, wait, almost in position, almost, getting there, just a little longer, almost... aw man I got shot! This game is biased against me!

Viridian Bog... yes, if you stand on top of a hill, you can get shot. if you fail to use the even-more-ample-than-before ground cover, you can get shot. If you don't, this map is pretty good for brawling, mid range builds, and snipers alike. Its well balanced and a slight improvement over the old.

...

You know, I'm just sensing that Blood Rose doesn't like getting shot from beyond the range of whatever weapons they're packing, and that any time it happens it must be because the map is "sniper friendly". Huh.

The rule of "Don't fight in the middle" applies to most of the maps in this game, these days. Trouble is, that's always where they put the Domination point, and once people are conditioned to fighting in one single area, it's funny how they always go back to that area unless there's a specific map objective which will relocate the fight (Conquest).

As for Viridian: the cover was definitely reduced, not increased, in the latest patch. I distinctly remember there being some very large trees that had a distinctly negative effect on missile flight which have been removed to open sightlines around the two central areas. The remaining cover was pre-existing. The only "added" cover are in areas where new ramps were added to encourage high-elevation poking. It would have been nice if they'd at least copy/pasted DIFFERENT trees from the map, rather than the exact same one three times right next to itself... Way to make it obvious.

I agree with the points on River/Frozen, as they're older map remakes which did a VASTLY better job of creating a nicely diversified and balanced map, while not looking absolutely ridiculous, as HPG now does.

HPG has definitely boosted the role of the wall-sniper (even though it was sold to the community as reducing their number since ramps allowed them to be driven down, instead, we have behemoth 'mechs that shouldn't be up there in the first place, camping behind hard cover, racking up insane scores). Ramps to the outer defensive works is the most asinine change that has been made to this game within the past several months. I have seen no issue pre-patch with forcing snipers to abandon the top of the wall through concentrated fire from the central low-ground. Now, those 'mechs are bigger, with more armor and firepower, and more cover to hide behind, and without the mobility to access those locations without some really stupid-looking ramps that would never realistically exist.

I don't even have an issue with the idea of climbing the dirt from far outside the complex, and accessing the top of the wall that way (which you were always able to do if you knew how). I would have supported widening the map playable area to enable that type of wall access from both directions, instead of just from one, and even to enable encircling the entire complex without going inside the walls at all, for more attack angles and options. But artificial ramps I will never get behind, and never agree with. It's the stupidest change they could have made (behind fighting over an antenna that's worthless next to the behemoth antenna just 1000m away), and I can't wait for them to fix that error.

[YueFei]

C337Skymaster, on 26 November 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

As someone who's been arguing for Convergence to be completely removed, I'll support having it slowly adjust (it's more accurate to the Lore that way, technically. I was arguing for completely predictable firing behavior, though, to eliminate any and all randomness and allow this "player skill" that everyone keeps raving about).

I used to support the idea of variable convergence, but after thinking about it more, it'd just make bad mechs even more terrible. Like it's bad enough already if you have hardpoints spread widely all over your mech, especially low-slung mounts, because it forces you to expose so much more of your mech to shoot. Now imagine you get screwed even harder on convergence. You'd either have to accept most of your salvo whiffing, or you'd have to stagger your shots while individually re-aiming for each one, while staring longer at the enemies and thus getting your CT drilled out.

It'd just make people gravitate towards mechs which have closely-packed hardpoints that would largely circumvent any convergence mechanic, rather than opening up gameplay space for skill expression.

[C337Skymaster]

YueFei, on 26 November 2021 - 11:56 AM, said:

you'd have to stagger your shots while individually re-aiming for each one,

This is the part that I'm hoping will happen, as it's something I naturally do, already. Especially on 'mechs like the King Crab or Warhawk. I've been playing "left right" weapon groups since I started with this game, and even explicitly purchase Ambidextrous Mice to help it (I've had really bad luck with EVGA scroll wheels, as, it seems, has everyone else except EVGA, but I really like their button layout).

It's where I agree that technically a slow convergence is more lore-accurate: as the firing computer figures out what you're aiming at, how far away it is, and what the angle of the arms needs to be to converge on that spot. I like the give/take with having to decide between some damage now, or more pinpoint damage later. It also fits in with weapon locking, and will feel like the same delay required of popping out, acquiring a missile lock, firing, and returning to cover.

With zero convergence, though, I was actually dreaming of being able to corner-peek without having to worry about invisible walls as much (since your exposed arm will fire straight, and not nearly 90 degrees at the invisible wall right off your 'mech's nose). It'd also help with leading targets, since your convergence point will stop fluctuating with whatever might be behind your reticule, and will remain constant and predictable.

[Blood Rose]

pbiggz, on 26 November 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

First

the new maps don't "favour sniping", they allow sniping. That's more than can be said for most of the old maps. Since we spent so many years in the LowreyBalance/PaulBalance^tm regime, I understand this change may come as a shock to you, but, once upon a time, snipers were good, but people did the unthinkable... they complained, and paul does not like complaining so he nerfed snipers so hard they're only starting to be viable with heavy and assault mechs now. He nerfed them so hard they were basically not a meaningful feature of the game for almost 8 years.

Aktually comrade.....
Well, jokes aside, snipers have never not been viable, not since the removal of convergence. There has always been an encouragement for people to boat multiple high damage long range weapons that hit for a lot. Everyone from Beta remembers the Thunderstruck Stalkers and GaussxERPPC poptarts back in the day. The "nerf" you are thinking about are the older maps that were usually built with a mix of engagement ranges or terrain types. Some of the old city maps lacked many long range easy access sniping points, and others had areas that snipers struggled in. There were still sniping points, the tactic was not dominant though. These days, snipers are far more prevalent because sniping is a far more rewarding tactic.

Quote

The new approach to map design and balance isn't favouring snipers. The old approach was punishing them. That's the difference, and you can't really advocate for straight up punitive nerfs to a play style because you don't like it.

Old Frozen City and maybe River City, if the engagement wandered to the right area were the only two maps I can think of that didnt really let snipers snipe. Forest Colony was very pro-sniper, with long sight lines over the water, along the shore, and from ridge hopping, but it also managed to balance this out with some nice brawling areas further inland. But thats the thing, they were balanced, for the most part. Some swung one way or another but they kept a nice balance. You only call them "punishing" because they didnt outright hand snipers an easy time.

Quote

As for your convergence points. I get where you are coming from. I will push back on it though for a few reasons, the most important being, you will not like it. Having shots go *not where you clicked* feels super gross. People will generally reject it, and they would be right to. This isn't a dice roll table top wargame, its a shooter. Your bullets should go where you shoot them. Sometimes you'll miss but if you do, its because you shot wrong, not because a few lines of code put your 70 point alpha into the side of a mountain instead of the side of a mech for *reasons*.

Ehh, I can see what you mean but I feel that would be a hangover of the COD syndrome. Too many people are used to point-click-bang these days. The weapons on your Mech are multi-ton beasts with calibres (in the case of any larger than MG ballistic) that start at tank gun level and quickly hit Battleship Battery Bore. Mechs have inlaid servos to correct the convergence points of these guns but it makes sense that they struggle to adjust from converging at 30 metres to converging at 600 metres in a flash. In fact, the TT lore does mention that Targeting Computers come with specialised heavy duty and fine tuning servos to assist in laying the guns on faster.
This change would not just hurt snipers, shoot and scoot/PP alpha brawlers and skirmishers would also feel it and it would help up-time DPS loadouts as they would have the advantage of being able to keep firing longer, allowing their weapons to converge whereas the boom and twist or boom and cover loadouts would be forced to wait, probably less time than snipers because of the distance, for the convergence to hit or allow for some damage spread. Actually, this would benefit missile boats too, of all types. Spreading damage isnt so bad when everyone is.

Quote

You're annoyed because you don't know how to deal with snipers. You don't know how to deal with them because you haven't really had to for years. Instead of posting, I recommend figuring out ways to stop them. For one thing, they're typically slow, fragile builds. They have low DPS output (the trade off for having a high alpha) and will not hold up to sustained fire, really at any range. These are paper mechs. They aren't hard to kill.

Not really. I run a few snipers of my own, a HPPC Katapult, a HPPC Vindicator, a hybrid sniper/missile boat/skirmisher Huntsman with 2 CLPL and 2 CLRM15, and a Juggernaut dual Gauss Rifle Annihilator. I know how good they are - most of those are only semi optimised for brawls but they do well. The ability to reach out and badtouch someone from a long way away is, on the current maps, almost always better than the ability to really hurt them once you get in close, or flay them over time at medium to close ranges.

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 November 2021 - 08:55 AM, said:

And to that point... HPG... it doesn't FAVOR snipers. yes, it has lots of high ground for them to stand on, but it encourages them to separate from their team to do it! While a vapor eagle can move fast enough to jump jet to safety, the low DPS fatties that set up on the walls are just FOOD for any fast movers that come by, as are the vapor eagles that refuse to flee or waited too long. My KDR in medium mechs is climbing steadily thanks to this map serving me an all-i-can-brawl sniper buffet!

A few good runs in a dedicated hunter do not change the fact that it is currently far too easy to access the walls, and once again the vast, open, areas really penalise anything other than sniping or getting into a point blank brawl in the centre because gods forbid you show a sliver of your mech for a fraction of a second.

Quote

Caustic... i love this map. the rule of this map is "don't fight in the middle, its a kill zone." Obey that rule and you have fun, and the snipers don't have any power over you. But if you Potato on into the middle... well... you asked for it.

Again, its still a snipers hotzone. Out of the games I have had in it since it was updated only one has resulted in a brawl, and that is only because we got lucky and rammed 2/3 of our team down a very hard flanking route that surprised the enemy and turned their flank. Lightning runs like that are rare and hard to coordinate. They cannot be counted on.

Quote

Frozen City / River City... come on, these are not sniper-fest maps. Yes, there is open ground to cross, but once you do you have oodles of hard cover again. Sometimes you just have to consider that brawlers who move slower than 60kph have a "kick me" sign on them. Okay, okay, wait, almost in position, almost, getting there, just a little longer, almost... aw man I got shot! This game is biased against me!

Kek what?! River city varies, as I said, but Frozen has the Valley of Death and all a sniping team has to do is stay out of the VoD and rip apart any brawlers that dare to try and cross. Unless an opening is forced, at the cost of a couple of players usually, the enemy can be forced to play "chase the squirrel" poor deployment on their behalf or good countersniping, or unless they have some other none-snipers who also enter the VoD or try to force a crossing, the game devolves into a snipers wet dreams. Its a ******* city map. For ***** sake it should not be a turkey shoot.

Quote

Viridian Bog... yes, if you stand on top of a hill, you can get shot. if you fail to use the even-more-ample-than-before ground cover, you can get shot. If you don't, this map is pretty good for brawling, mid range builds, and snipers alike. Its well balanced and a slight improvement over the old.

Again, debatable. The brawling does happen so long as both teams close to fight in the lowlands between the central pillars. Trying to go around these pillars is a mistake as well positioned snipers on the hills behind them will happily cream themselves as they shred the offending peon with long range murder.

Quote

...
You know, I'm just sensing that Blood Rose doesn't like getting shot from beyond the range of whatever weapons they're packing, and that any time it happens it must be because the map is "sniper friendly". Huh.

You know, I am starting to think that Scraplon Prime doesnt like anyone closing to within half the effective range of whatever weapons they are packing and that any time it happens it must be because the map is "brawler friendly", huh.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Blood Rose, on 26 November 2021 - 02:03 PM, said:

Not really. I run a few snipers of my own, a HPPC Katapult, a HPPC Vindicator, a hybrid sniper/missile boat/skirmisher Huntsman with 2 CLPL and 2 CLRM15, and a Juggernaut dual Gauss Rifle Annihilator. I know how good they are - most of those are only semi optimised for brawls but they do well.

I think your definition of "snipers" in MW:O is somewhat misleading. Most of the builds you listed are for mid range engagements. I don't consider CLRM's to be "sniper" weapons, more or less long range support. The only thing I really see that is a realistic choice for "sniping" is your Annihilator which is a really bizarre mech to run for long range sniper roles since imho Annihilators do better on the front line sharing armor with your team and forcing pushes onto the enemy.

While "snipers" are strong in MW:O they are not the all go to meta in the game. They have a tough role since they:

1. Provide enough DPS to justify holding back and sharing armor with the team, which can make or break games

2. Must be accurate with pinpoint weaponry without any in game legitimate aim assists (not 3rd party tools)

3. Have to constantly watch out for Lights/Mediums thus have to be near cover or facing their backs against a wall

4. Have to be relatively close to the circle in Domination and are forced to capture points in Conquest

5. Get screwed when the friendly team decides to Nascar since the enemy will collectively focus fire on slow long range fire support mechs as opposed to Brawler mechs

[MPhoenix]

Speaking as someone with a level of colorblindness issues Caustic Valley has a horrible color palette the renders it a large water colored mush.
Even heat vision does little to solve the problem, I work in grey scale imaging and the heat vision 'grey scale' is terrible.
That's not really the fault of the grey scaling as much as the fact that the color palette is so similar to begin with that there's no much contrast to work with.

Watching videos of the old Caustic Valley the color palette had more contrast that would have made it moderately playable. As it is now if I get CV I have two choices, wander around blindly until I'm killed or find a rock to alpha strike in to until I overheat and blow up.

[YueFei]

C337Skymaster, on 26 November 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is the part that I'm hoping will happen, as it's something I naturally do, already. Especially on 'mechs like the King Crab or Warhawk. I've been playing "left right" weapon groups since I started with this game, and even explicitly purchase Ambidextrous Mice to help it (I've had really bad luck with EVGA scroll wheels, as, it seems, has everyone else except EVGA, but I really like their button layout).

Yeah but the mechanic (ghost heat) which forces a staggered salvo out of those mechs isn't one that affects accuracy. They'll still shoot where you want without having to account for dynamically-changing parallax between where you see your reticule and where you suppose your gun mounts may be pointing (unless you offer multiple reticules??).

If you saddle the mechs with wide hardpoints with difficult mechanics, most players aren't going to try to struggle with it, they'll just take mechs with tightly-clustered hardpoints. You'll render a whole bunch of mechs relatively non-viable, which runs anathema to the goal of making as many mechs and weapons viable as possible. The thicc mechs will whiff shots on either side of their targets (like Vlad missing with both arms when he fired at Phelan, LOL), while the skinny mechs will be able to focus their damage.

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It's where I agree that technically a slow convergence is more lore-accurate: as the firing computer figures out what you're aiming at, how far away it is, and what the angle of the arms needs to be to converge on that spot. I like the give/take with having to decide between some damage now, or more pinpoint damage later. It also fits in with weapon locking, and will feel like the same delay required of popping out, acquiring a missile lock, firing, and returning to cover.

OK, it seems you're trying to approach the problem of pinpoint damage and how to solve it. You're trying to solve it by altering the shooting mechanics. The problem I see is that if you take a mech with wide hardpoints, you're never going to get the chance to get that pinpoint damage. You'll come out, wait on lock, get drilled by a mech with tightly-clustered hardpoints, and then it'll duck back into cover while you're still waiting for that lock. Either that or you're gonna have to let fly with only a fraction of your firepower and it'll still end up splattering all over the target.

I don't think we need to solve the pinpoint damage issue via an overhaul of the shooting mechanics that's likely to frustrate existing players, confuse new players, and drive people to play mechs where it won't matter (or matters much less).

I think that dealing with pinpoint damage just requires a careful balance of laser durations and varying projectile velocities (to create different Times-to-Impact), and it requires the defending player to actively maneuver their mech to defend. This requires greater player input and gives players greater agency. If I stand there like a dunce I get drilled out. I know I've done that before, not realizing I'm being flanked, and getting a shoulder opened up by a single massive salvo by an enemy that had a million years to stand still, track me, and light me up, but that's my fault and I ought to be punished for it. It makes it all the more satisfying when I do move smartly and force the enemy to take every last point of armor and structure from me before I go down.

And really, if players do that and most of the time they can die while missing half their mech? Then pinpoint damage isn't a problem anymore. And I believe that's already the case, since even when the best players fight each other, they don't all end up with cleanly drilled-out CTs and nothing else touched. That's strong evidence that pinpoint damage isn't a problem, since even the best marksmen can't pull it off.

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With zero convergence, though, I was actually dreaming of being able to corner-peek without having to worry about invisible walls as much (since your exposed arm will fire straight, and not nearly 90 degrees at the invisible wall right off your 'mech's nose). It'd also help with leading targets, since your convergence point will stop fluctuating with whatever might be behind your reticule, and will remain constant and predictable.

So essentially being able to blind-fire around corners? That'd be a neat mechanic, for sure, particularly since we have Target Info Sharing which means you can in fact try to aim at the target even though you don't have direct LOS from your cockpit. Having the option to voluntarily disable your convergence would be cool. But I disagree with nixing convergence or making it overly clunky because of how it would screw the thicc mechs.

[C E Dwyer]

It's a one trick pony map, well two if you count strikes.

It caters to less builds than the old Caustic.

[Blood Rose]

YueFei, on 26 November 2021 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yeah but the mechanic (ghost heat) which forces a staggered salvo out of those mechs isn't one that affects accuracy.

I think that dealing with pinpoint damage just requires a careful balance of laser durations and varying projectile velocities (to create different Times-to-Impact), and it requires the defending player to actively maneuver their mech to defend. This requires greater player input and gives players greater agency. If I stand there like a dunce I get drilled out. I know I've done that before, not realizing I'm being flanked, and getting a shoulder opened up by a single massive salvo by an enemy that had a million years to stand still, track me, and light me up, but that's my fault and I ought to be punished for it. It makes it all the more satisfying when I do move smartly and force the enemy to take every last point of armor and structure from me before I go down.

Ghost Heat was an attempt to stop mass boatings (9 ML Hunchbacks, quad or sextuple PPC Stalkers, Large Laser boats in general, etc) of weapons melting the enemy for little recourse, an issue that only started to occur after the old Convergence mechanic (the one I described) was removed. Newer players dont remember the days of the Thunderstruck Stalker or Discoback or Gauss x ERPPC poptarts, but those of us old enough to do so shudder. That or the warpspeed Spiders.

And as for changing velocities and burn times, they did that. Several times. It doesnt do much as sniper and mid range fighters tend to boat the same weapon type in one group, and close range brawlers tend not to care too much.

[Bassault]

Because I don't like being shot 700m away as I try to walk around

Edited by I LOVE ATLASES, 27 November 2021 - 09:00 AM.

[YueFei]

Blood Rose, on 26 November 2021 - 08:59 PM, said:

Ghost Heat was an attempt to stop mass boatings (9 ML Hunchbacks, quad or sextuple PPC Stalkers, Large Laser boats in general, etc) of weapons melting the enemy for little recourse, an issue that only started to occur after the old Convergence mechanic (the one I described) was removed. Newer players dont remember the days of the Thunderstruck Stalker or Discoback or Gauss x ERPPC poptarts, but those of us old enough to do so shudder. That or the warpspeed Spiders.

I played during the Gauss+PPC poptart era, and to be honest, the pinpoint damage wasn't the problem, the problem was that they had crazy fast jump speeds for heavies/assaults which enabled very high jumps (getting shot opportunities from almost anywhere on the map to most of the map), minimizing exposure time, and also being able to push out good DPS because of the ability to keep bouncing back up for follow-up shots.

This issue is mostly solved anyway with the current iteration of jumpjet behavior for heavies and assaults, which still allows higher jumps, but with slower ascent speed.

Even Gauss+PPC can be mitigated against just by moving laterally, since the differing projectile velocities means that there'll be a difference in Time-To-Impact (TTI). For example, at 800 meters, if you're moving laterally even at a fairly slow 60kph, the difference in TTI will mean the impact points between Gauss and ERPPC will be 0.95 meters, with the ERPPC impacting in 421milliseconds. As an example, an Atlas could turn+twist a combined 68.623 degrees in that time, so that'll reduce the hitbox profile from 2.4 meters down to just 0.874 meters, meaning there's only 0.437 meters of margin for error. A difference in impact point of 0.95 meters means the volley will hit two different hitboxes, and may in fact even hit non-adjacent hitboxes (e.g., CT + LA, or LT + RT).

Laser boats are pinpoint but not frontloaded, so the damage can be twisted off during the burn.

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And as for changing velocities and burn times, they did that. Several times. It doesnt do much as sniper and mid range fighters tend to boat the same weapon type in one group, and close range brawlers tend not to care too much.

Ghost heat combined with different velocities and burn times clearly works, not just in theory but in practice, since people tend not to die with drilled out CTs and nothing else touched. Even when you observe the best pilots in Comp play, with the very best marksmen, the matches tend to end with everyone's mechs suffering damage to multiple components before dying.

The Lore consistently describes pilots bobbing and weaving defensively, and that's why the incoming fire gets spread out across their mech. The onus is on the players to maneuver defensively to spread that incoming damage.

You don't even need super fast reflexes to do this. If, like me, you don't have the greatest reflexes, you can still spread incoming damage just by maneuvering pre-emptively, in the same way that a Boxer in real life keeps up their movement to make themselves a harder target to hit. Boxers don't avoid every punch by relying on reflexes alone, particularly against lightning-fast jabs, but instead they move in an anticipatory fashion.

In MWO, anytime you aren't shooting, just do the same kind of bobbing&weaving (or if you're using face-time weapons, just keep stutter-stepping), and the incoming damage gets spread out.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Blood Rose, on 26 November 2021 - 02:03 PM, said:

A few good runs in a dedicated hunter do not change the fact that it is currently far too easy to access the walls, and once again the vast, open, areas really penalise anything other than sniping or getting into a point blank brawl in the centre because gods forbid you show a sliver of your mech for a fraction of a second.

The meta changed. I've moved to that dedicated hunter design as one of my go-to mechs now. The trick is making a chassis fast enough that you can cover ground quickly, that you can go around the long way if you have to and not miss the fight. Dual Heavy Gauss makes for excellent brawling, yes, but getting into position on many of the maps is difficult. A Centurion D, Nova, Shadow Hawk, or Phoenix Hawk packs less firepower, but can always bring it to bear because you're moving at twice the speed of a Fatnir.

The trick is what you DO when you get there, of course.

YueFei, on 27 November 2021 - 10:55 AM, said:

I played during the Gauss+PPC poptart era, and to be honest, the pinpoint damage wasn't the problem, the problem was that they had crazy fast jump speeds for heavies/assaults which enabled very high jumps (getting shot opportunities from almost anywhere on the map to most of the map), minimizing exposure time, and also being able to push out good DPS because of the ability to keep bouncing back up for follow-up shots.

This issue is mostly solved anyway with the current iteration of jumpjet behavior for heavies and assaults, which still allows higher jumps, but with slower ascent speed.

I honestly miss those jump jets. I understand why they're gone, but having one on an assault mech that allowed you to spin in place very rapidly made brawling and twisting SO easy!

[VeeOt Dragon]

as far as convergence goes i would have a mixed system. arm weapons would have convergence with no problem and use the current model. torso mounted weapons though would only fire directly forward. yes this would hurt mechs like the Fafnir by spreading its damage out. most mechs though wouldn't be hurt to badly at normal engagement ranges. yes at long ranges it might cause some issues. but i figure at anything under 700m it should be fine. also since arms tend to have less armor it would be risk reward system. if you want that perfect convergence you have to put your weapons into those more vulnerable slots. it would also make people think about if they want to go all torso and strip the arms but lack convergence (also risking not being able to hit something hugging your crotch.) or get that pinpoint but risk losing weapons more easily.