Jump to content

Am I Helping My Team?


46 replies to this topic

#21 pattonesque

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,260 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 06:28 AM

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:


[redacted]

the light ppc is not for damage, it is to remove the ecm.
the lbx is not a main weapon in my example, it is to give critical chance boost without a computer.
the lasers are not to stupidly hold down the button, it is to fire each and every laser one after another, this will increase the chances to make a critical hit.
If you can not understand the most simplest knowledge about why a LBX does not need a computer I don't know what to say.


this is all wrong. I wonder why you're so confident about it when your publicly available stats have you losing significantly more often than you win and dying way more often than you kill

#22 I LOVE ANNIHILATORS

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • The Decimator
  • 153 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 08:22 AM

https://mwo.nav-alph...b=654e5297_BJ-1

or

https://mwo.nav-alph...=5918ebe2_BJ-1X

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

gauss do not work well with UAC because of its chain-fire feature. without it you could as well used a normal AC.
chain fire is used on medium lasers to overcome ghost heating and to make each laser check a critical hit.
weapons like UAC and chain-fired Lasers or PPC has a familiar mechanic.


No, no, no, stop. Always alphastrike when possible. DO NOT chainfire.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

[redacted] the light ppc is not for damage, it is to remove the ecm. the lbx is not a main weapon in my example, it is to give critical chance boost without a computer. the lasers are not to stupidly hold down the button, it is to fire each and every laser one after another, this will increase the chances to make a critical hit. If you can not understand the most simplest knowledge about why a LBX does not need a computer I don't know what to say.


If you don't understand the most simplest knowledge about why you shouldn't chainfire than I don't know what to say, besides of course you're wrong, and nobody should listen to you, and your advice actively harms people trying to learn.

Edited by I LOVE ATLASES, 27 November 2021 - 08:26 AM.


#23 Thorqemada

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 09:27 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 27 November 2021 - 04:16 AM, said:

I’m sorry, but that makes no sense. Chain firing does not increase damage or critical chances, all it does is spread out the time it takes to deal damage. Chain fire has a positive effect on managing heat and a psychological effect on the target (he’s still shooting me!), but it doesn’t change the weapon damage or increase the crit chances. I don’t’ see where you would derive that information.


That makes all sense when the engine can only handle a certain limited number of weapon interactions at certain a given frame and by lowering the weapon interactions per frame to at or below its limits will in result increase the applied damage bcs less damage goes into the void (bcs it is portioned to several frames instead a single one).

Posted Image

Edited by Thorqemada, 27 November 2021 - 09:30 AM.


#24 ScrapIron Prime

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,093 posts
  • LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio

Posted 27 November 2021 - 09:37 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 09:27 AM, said:


That makes all sense when the engine can only handle a certain limited number of weapon interactions at certain a given frame and by lowering the weapon interactions per frame to at or below its limits will in result increase the applied damage bcs less damage goes into the void (bcs it is portioned to several frames instead a single one).

Posted Image


Hmm. No disrespect here, but I’m gonna pull an ASH. Do you have evidence this happens? Something on how HSR fails to register certain weapon hits in a timely fashion? Because your anecdotal evidence and mine don’t line up on this one I’m afraid.

#25 CFC Conky

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 1,448 posts
  • LocationThe PSR basement.

Posted 27 November 2021 - 09:40 AM

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

...

So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?

PS This in Tier 5 where I seem to be permanently.


The 2xAC2 1xERLL build that was suggested will certainly allow you to remain at range. That said, as you climb in PSR, and you will, you may notice that your suppression value decreases because experienced players in well-armored mechs will be less intimidated by your volume of ranged fire.

The BJ is not very hard to take down, but when standing near a heavier/more threatening mech you will be a lesser priority so might I suggest you eventually work you way to second line and add your weight of fire to the team while remaining somewhat 'insignificant' (to borrow a Baradul term).

If you want to be a long-range shooter that's absolutely fine. In time you may wish to transition to mechs with more firepower, or mobility if sporting a lighter weapon load.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

#26 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 3,492 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 10:31 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 27 November 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

Hmm. No disrespect here, but I’m gonna pull an ASH. Do you have evidence this happens? Something on how HSR fails to register certain weapon hits in a timely fashion? Because your anecdotal evidence and mine don’t line up on this one I’m afraid.

Only weapons I have seen this happening is multiple rocketlaunchers alphaed and what they should do and what they did was greatly different, haven't used any RL in few year so might be better now.

#27 Black Caiman

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The Thumper
  • The Thumper
  • 99 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:02 AM

I think the best thing I can recommend to our opening poster here is to check the sources/sanity of the advice being offered here. Some of it is excellent advice coming from skilled and experienced players, and that is the advice you would do well to heed. They can absolutely lead you on the correct path to improving your game.

#28 Heavy Money

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • 919 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:21 AM

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:


So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?



To get back to the larger issue, the answer is probably not. Long Range medium mechs can impact a match if you're really good, but generally speaking the damage volume is just not that great (unless you are a vapor eagle, which has a heavy mech's worth of firepower.) And even when people do get a high damage score in these, its often spread over the whole match and didn't come in time to matter. You'll often see a 2ERPPC Shadow Cat with 800+ damage as the last guy left alive on their team. But much of that damage came during the cat and mouse game after their team had lost.

If you want to do real damage at long range, consider a heavy mech. These will be bigger than the BlackJack, but not necessarily slower if you choose a clan omnimech. You'll then have plenty of options for Gauss, ERPPCs, and ERLL.

Ebon Jaguar and Timberwolf are good all around picks. The Hellbringer Hero (Virago) is excellent for ERLLs. Sunspider can do some nice long range loadouts, but nothing the Jaguar and Timberwolf can't do right now (although it may get buffed more.) The Summoner can poptart ERPPCs, but not much else (just run a vapor eagle if you want that.)

For slower Heavy snipers, you are looking at 2Light Gauss +2 ERPPCs builds (Inner Sphere only.) For these you're looking at the Warhammer-6R or the hero (Black Widow.) The Catapult K2 also can do a variety of long range builds with PPCs. On the Clan side, the Night Gyr has a ton of excellent long range builds.

If you want to stay in a medium mech, I'd suggest looking at medium range builds. There's plenty that can do IS Large Lasers (~500ishm range), or Large Pulse+ER Medium Lasers (~400ish range). Or if you go Clan, Large Pulse (~600), Heavy Large Laser (~500), and their ER Medium Laser (~450).

If you want to stick with your Blackjack, the main strength of it is actually efficient sustained damage. The AC2 builds churn out solid DPS at any range, and the medium lasers do quite well for damage too. But you actually play it up fairly close, and its a face time build. Good for supporting something bigger than you that is drawing attention.

Edited by Heavy Money, 27 November 2021 - 11:25 AM.


#29 Thorqemada

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,112 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:22 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 09:27 AM, said:


That makes all sense when the engine can only handle a certain limited number of weapon interactions at certain a given frame and by lowering the weapon interactions per frame to at or below its limits will in result increase the applied damage bcs less damage goes into the void (bcs it is portioned to several frames instead a single one).

Posted Image


Well, as i wrote originally, it was an experience that happened some years ago and the biggest offender was a Hunchback 4J that i struggled to have success in until i started to alternate the missile fire bcs it did much less damage than expected when i fired all missiles simultaneously, i did 152 matches in that thing...

Now and then strange issues appear like the bug that made MRM damage fps dependant.

These sort of bugs/issues can allways come back - that is what i say...

Do not assume this game works allways flawless!

#30 ScrapIron Prime

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,093 posts
  • LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:23 AM

View PostCurccu, on 27 November 2021 - 10:31 AM, said:

Only weapons I have seen this happening is multiple rocketlaunchers alphaed and what they should do and what they did was greatly different, haven't used any RL in few year so might be better now.


Rocket Launchers do reduced damage closer than minimum range now instead of zero. So when you fire them at a target whose torso is in range but whose closest arm and leg are under minimum, you'll see them do damage now. That was the major source of damage weirdness on them, IMHO.

#31 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 3,492 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:38 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 27 November 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

Rocket Launchers do reduced damage closer than minimum range now instead of zero. So when you fire them at a target whose torso is in range but whose closest arm and leg are under minimum, you'll see them do damage now. That was the major source of damage weirdness on them, IMHO.

I used them back in the day when they did 0 damage if shot too close so doesn't explain it. But like I said that was few Years back and I don't really see them viable outside of 1v1 in Solaris for some splat builds :P

#32 VeeOt Dragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 554 posts
  • LocationOhio

Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:59 AM

not sure on that particular BJ as the only one i have is the BJ-3 (i run 3 L-PPC as my main armament). also keep in mind the 2 L-PPC have the same range and heat as 1 standard PPC but does 1 extra damage and has 1 less weight. i would think mixing some AC/LBX with a couple L-PPC might work for you. its more mid than long range but i find that the majority of combat is within those ranges.

the BJ while not the best mech in the IS medium category but its till a decent mech with good hardpoint placement. he makes a great hill poker with good enough speed to maneuver around your team offering fire where needed.

don't get discouraged or let some meta try hard lead you astray. experiment and find what works best for you. remember if not having fun then whats the point. i have seen some folks do some incredible work with some goofy builds.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 27 November 2021 - 12:00 PM.


#33 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • 8,987 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 27 November 2021 - 01:35 PM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 03:19 AM, said:

This perception may come from experiences players had that when they would fire multiple weapons at the same time MWO did less damage than if you would chainfire.

I had the same experience with several weapons on several Mechs where firing multiple weapons (same type and different type) did not the expected damage and alternating groupfire or chainfiring a weapon group would pretty much double the damage output (not only proven by numbers but also by success aka kills).


Who cares about perception, lack of understanding it anything else.

The hard fact is - it isn't true. Never has been.

Chain firing does not increase your damage output. End of topic.

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 09:27 AM, said:


That makes all sense when the engine can only handle a certain limited number of weapon interactions at certain a given frame and by lowering the weapon interactions per frame to at or below its limits will in result increase the applied damage bcs less damage goes into the void (bcs it is portioned to several frames instead a single one).


Where is the proof if this?

I'm betting, as usual, it'll never come.

#34 ScrapIron Prime

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,093 posts
  • LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio

Posted 27 November 2021 - 02:31 PM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 11:22 AM, said:


Well, as i wrote originally, it was an experience that happened some years ago and the biggest offender was a Hunchback 4J that i struggled to have success in until i started to alternate the missile fire bcs it did much less damage than expected when i fired all missiles simultaneously, i did 152 matches in that thing...

Now and then strange issues appear like the bug that made MRM damage fps dependant.

These sort of bugs/issues can allways come back - that is what i say...

Do not assume this game works allways flawless!


Bugs come and go, no argument there. But apart from issues that get chased down and patched, I've not seen the "more damage on chain fire" that you're referencing. I've run a 4J for years too, and indirect fire versus cover is likely more to blame for your experiences than any issue with chain firing. I personally didn't find that to be the case.

#35 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 14,832 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:13 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 November 2021 - 02:33 AM, said:

I honestly don't trust that speed.


which is why i said its not sane. its slow (61kph, slow for a medium), no jj, and has hard damage cap with no backup weapons. its also short a small amount of leg armor, but campers can easily keep those shielded by terrain. i think its workable capable of supporting the team, but just barely. best bet is to hang out with other ranged traders. go for hits against stripped components for maximum effect.

considering the wider your circling radius the more ground you have to cover in order to find new positions or better angles. i don't think its a good idea to mix low mobility with low alpha. scats work because they have the masc and jjs, can take direct routes and aren't slowed down by changes in elevation. fire till redline and reposition. the bj is never going to redline, but keeping the enemy in your firing arcs is going to be your biggest challenge. shoot n scoot is probibly going to be mediocre and result in a higher miss rate. best bet is to trade with team, its not a solo camp build.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 November 2021 - 03:14 PM.


#36 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 14,832 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:38 PM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 03:19 AM, said:


This perception may come from experiences players had that when they would fire multiple weapons at the same time MWO did less damage than if you would chainfire.

I had the same experience with several weapons on several Mechs where firing multiple weapons (same type and different type) did not the expected damage and alternating groupfire or chainfiring a weapon group would pretty much double the damage output (not only proven by numbers but also by success aka kills).

That time is quite a while ago but the knowledge prevailed and you never know if it comes back on certain circumstances.

I would not deny it per se...


thats almost always convergence related. you aim ct and part or all of an alpha goes under the arm. you are going to get bad convergence if you have the weapons in any one group widely spaced. chainfire is a workaround, and i used to use it a lot on my ppc warhawks for example. but then i did separate left and right side groups, but still in chain fire, and double tapped as if it were a uac, this improved it a lot. later i realized that chainfire wasn't really necessary when using left/right groups and its generally a good idea to land as much damage per trigger pull as possible. i think my game has improved significantly as a result.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 November 2021 - 03:53 PM.


#37 Sjorpha

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,440 posts
  • LocationSweden

Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:51 PM

If you're "stuck in tier 5" you probably aren't helping your team all that much.

You know you're helping your team if you win more than you lose over time, and it that's the case you will also move fairly quickly to at least tier 3.

#38 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Tip of the Spear
  • The Tip of the Spear
  • 1,531 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:54 PM

here's another 2ct

If you insist on it being a Blackjack and doing snipey-snipe with it, I'd recommend a dual ppc or erppc build.
you could also spam Lppc and it runs several erLL fine, too. and here it kinda ends;
you CAN run 2ac2 or lb2, and it is much fun - but also very little dmg-output and not enough ammo.


since you're asking 'is this helpful' - the ppc/LL builds kinda are. but tbh, I see Blackjacks 'more helpful' with a erML/ML-spam build, or with LL+erMLs. you generally have bigger alphas in those and "trade in" some of that snipey-range for dead-bodies on the ground.

try to find your sweetspot between "helping the team" and "enjoying the game". from a teammate perspective:
I'd rather have you pilot that midrange build than the snipestuff, but I'd still prefer that ~300dmg sniper to a yolo-teammate that doesn't ask these things in the first place.
so: thx for keeping that aspect in mind, and have fun dude - no matter what build you run Posted Image

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 27 November 2021 - 03:59 PM.


#39 Heavy Money

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • 919 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 04:31 PM

The BJ-1DC can churn out some impressive DPS with 2AC2 or 2LB2Xs + 6 Medium Lasers.

https://mwo.nav-alph...2d14b748_BJ-1DC

9.1/14.4 dps is on par with many Heavy mech builds, and the sustain is very good (~5 ATO before skills means you'll almost never heatcap before you disengage, and the LB2Xs will fire forever). But this is an XL engine, and you go the speed of a clan heavy, and a lot of that dps is coming from the medium lasers, so you need to be at ~300m-350m (after skills). So it does work as a facetime DPS machine, but there's very little reason to bring it over a clan heavy omnimech except for tonnage.

A build like this belong next to some heavies or Assaults that will be operating at that range. They draw fire, and you supplement their damage to mulch through people. But this requires good coordination and planning. Many matches will end up as peekers trading with each other, which you cannot do in this build. So while it is strong in its niche, its niche will often never come up.

#40 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,486 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 27 November 2021 - 05:26 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 27 November 2021 - 02:31 PM, said:

Bugs come and go, no argument there. But apart from issues that get chased down and patched, I've not seen the "more damage on chain fire" that you're referencing. I've run a 4J for years too, and indirect fire versus cover is likely more to blame for your experiences than any issue with chain firing. I personally didn't find that to be the case.


Hitreg tends to get wonky when trying to track multiple projectiles in a small area, especially when the fight is going full swing (when the system is also tracking missiles and cannons all over the place). Even beam weapons aren't immune. There have been games where I threw literally hundreds of SRMs out with my splatdog, watched the vast majority of them connect, but at the end of match I barely did 2 alphas worth of damage.

It's not so much that your damage increases with chainfire, it's that your damage registers more accurately when you aren't lobbing 30+ projectiles at a target that's at most a handful of square meters in area. Or at least, this has been my observation. And it isn't like MWO is the only game that suffers from intermittent hitreg issues, just about every online shooter/combat-sim has issues from time to time. (Despite hitreg being better now than it was in the beta days, and HSR, people will still whine that certain light mechs benefit from "lagshield". While I don't think there is a significant issue, I suspect things are difficult for the hitreg system to suss out when dealing with the fastest movers in the game when there are 50+ projectiles and 4 or 5 hitscan weapons trying to converge on one of them.)





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users