74 replies to this topic

[Heavy Money]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

Ok.but they work for pgi or how can i imagine that?

If it were up to me, there would be no recharge time for Gausrifles as well as no (C)AC(C)UAC 5,10,20 etc with multiple bullets, as well as different burn times of lasers or any Weapon Combo restictions.

Let the Skill decide, not the Mech or Faction but this will not happen in this game

In the end it boils down to 3 things: facetime,dps (pinpoint) and mobility.

I survive much longer in a Summoner than in a Marauder IIC.

With this build I can do 50 pinpoint damage from full twist (assaulttwist ) over 800m and spread the incoming Dmg.An Kodiak 3 cant do this,in no configurattion.

The Cauldron does not work for PGI. They are an unpaid community group.

This game has asymmetric balance, not true 1 to 1 balance. Mechs are not mirrors of each other, nor are they meant to be. Instead, each faction has its own pros and cons and different playstyles, and then within that faction mechs have their own pros/cons again. This is an extremely complex balance environment. The balance of this game is shockingly good considering the number of variables.


IS has stronger PPFLD at close and very long ranges. Clan has giant Laser alphas at medium and long ranges. IS tends to have better agility, Clan has better speed. IS is more durable, Clan has better cooling, etc. You can see this recent thread for more discussion of the pros/cons of each.

Comparing to counterstrike isn't really valid. They are different games. And for the most part, both teams run a mix of IS and Clan mechs. They don't in Faction play, but is Faction totally dominated by one side? No. It is surprisingly balanced.

You are looking at some features of the game that don't fit your taste, or that you don't understand, and deciding that it isn't balanced because it doesn't meet some arbitrary criteria you've come up with. This is a silly way to critique it. Instead, you should be asking:

1) Of the top mechs in the game, are both factions well represented?
2) Do both factions offer a variety of fun and effective playstyles?
3) Do both factions have their own unique playstyle to make them feel different?

The answer to all three is Yes.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

Balance would mean it can do something comparable with any other 100t, that is not the case.

It is the case, you're just using the wrong lens. If the comparison point is "Can other 100 tonners do 50PPFLD at 850 range" then the answer is yes (but not clan.) But that's the wrong question. The question is "Does this mech kill things in a useful way, while also being not quite like any other mech." They are supposed to be different from each other. Long range Sniping is the MAD-4L's thing. A Kodiak cannot do it quite the same. Instead, a Kodiak can do very effective and high damage mid-long range builds, such as 4xLB10X+ERMLs, UAC Dakka, Gaussvomit, etc. The MAD-4L can't do any of these. They both do different things and they are both good.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

This game is not balanced.Balance means that you can do the same thing in diffrent way at the same time

No it doesn't. Balance means that one side of what you're comparing is equal in power to the other side. That one side is not clearly better than the other. It doesn't mean that they are identical. It often does, but it doesn't have to. You can have asymmetrical balance. It is hard, but this game is doing it quite well. The variety and individual character of mechs is the whole point of this game.

Also, 1v1 rankings mean nothing in this game. The game is not balanced around 1v1.

Edited by Heavy Money, 06 December 2021 - 11:56 AM.

[Heavy Money]

pbiggz, on 06 December 2021 - 11:40 AM, said:

I've been toying with them for the last little bit. It's really fun to use gauss PPC like the old days, but its 100 tons, and slow. I usually get a good amount of firepower down range, before someone realizes im there, and chases me down. At 100 tons, and 50something kph, unless you have a standing escort (and you usually don't) your game pretty much ends there. They are not hard to kill at all. This fevered opposition to them even being present in the game at all is indefensible. It's the sorry cries of someone who simply wants everything he doesn't pilot himself to be nerfed. I have no respect for it.

"Whaaaaat? I'm being sniped by a 4L? This is so unfair! I'm only supposed to get shot at long range by Warhammers/Night Gyrs/Stalkers/Madcats/Supernovas/Annihilators etc (list like 1/4th of all mechs in the game)"

[justcallme A S H]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

Spoiler

I don't agree...

It has ECM, has 150 armor on CT, can mount PPC very high, has no arm lock, is faster and more agile than a Dire.

You can fire this combo 6 times(3 DH in Engine) in a row without shutting down and all that without giving any skillpoints.

No clan mech can do that and most have low and wide arm hardpoints too,especially when it comes to balistics Hartpoints

Anyway, so it's not a fluke and fits well into the Pgi "balance" policy

You are free to disagree. No issue there - as long as you disagree from a logic standpoint. So far I'm not seeing a logical argument.

Yeah Clan mech (Dire) can spew out 70dmg+ Alphas and then repeat it again in 4 seconds all with ECM. Tell me the MAD4L is doing 140dmg+ in 4s? Oh ye... Didn't think so

Just because 2 IS ERPPC are in a high mounted position, remind me - where is the Gauss again?
Your points just don't carry fair logic. You cherry pick without applying fairness.


To be honest it just seems like you don't really understand gameplay and balance sufficiently, which is fine, as it has been explained to you a number of times why it is not overpowered (and that is true). Linking something from Staude trying to use Solaris as some point of Quick Play balance - just shows even further lack of understanding. Staude's example(understanding) is completely wrong and has been pointed out to him.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

Ok.but they work for pgi or how can i imagine that?

Cauldron does not work for PGI. We work with them. We are unpaid, we are not employees.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

If it were up to me, there would be no recharge time for Gausrifles as well as no (C)AC(C)UAC 5,10,20 etc with multiple bullets, as well as different burn times of lasers or any Weapon Combo restictions.

Thankfully it isn't upto you! That would be horribly, horribly unbalanced.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

An Kodiak 3 cant do this,in no configurattion.

Balance would mean it can do something comparable with any other 100t, that is not the case.

If you could do the same in every 100T mech that would mean there is no uniqueness in the game and it is bland.

This is completely against the Cauldrons aim which has always been to increase the fun and viabilty along with giving each mech/variant different roles and uniqueness where possible.

If everything could do the same stuff MWO would be a boring game to play.

[D A T A]

Hawok79, on 05 December 2021 - 04:42 AM, said:

Heho,
A Marauder 2 4L can fire 2 Gaus and 2 ER PPC simultaneously without Ghostheat and geting only 38% Heat with only two double Heatsinks in Engine.


Happens this per accident or is this intenden to be.


That is ridiculous!!!

omg... a 100 tonner can do 50 alpha when much lighter mechs are doing up to 80!!! it must be a mistake!

anyways it is getting nerfed on heat soon due to many people complaining it's OP even if it's not.

[R Valentine]

Hawok79, on 05 December 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

Sorry,i forget the "2" for the ER PPC.

2 Gaus and 2 ER PPC simultaneously...

And a clan mech can fire 4 ERLL and 2 gauss at the same time, putting out 74 damage over the Marauder's mere 50. The fact that the marauder can rinse and repeat only means so much. How often do you get to fire 5 full alphas back to back? Even the worst of the soup Q pugs is smart enough not to allow you that many clean shots on them. The Marauder also carries limited ammunition, since JJ and ECM both eat up valuable tonnage. In fact, in most soup Q situations I'd take the Kaiju over the Marauder II 4L. The Marauder's ECM doesn't make up for the lack of velocity that the Kaiju gets, and the Kaiju's side peak allows for narrow exposures where the Marauder has to pull the entire mech out to fire. The Mad 4L is a viable mech, but by no means over the top. It's easy to trade with because of the weapon profile. The ECM buys you a few cheap shots, but it isn't ground breaking, and as stated before it eats into ammunition tonnage.

[Ravni]

The 4L can be really annoying to pilot sometimes because of its low arm mounts, but high-velocity sniper-range 50 pinpoints are devastating, and IMO the 4L is an amazing QP mech as it brings that in combination with strong JJs, good agility for its weight, ECM & runs ice cold. Also surprisingly good at defending itself from fast divers due to lower actuators on the dual gauss.

I think a nerf to it's 15% heat quirk is justified to make it run a little less ice cold. It's one of the most mono-build mechs in the game, so of course care needs to be taken to make sure that single build remains good.

[Hawok79]

First of all...Iam not Mad,iam serious and i know this Game very well

I add this to show some data there is no Balance,if there is,must here be more a mix of factions.
one to one is comparable

Rest follows,need some time

Staude, on 21 October 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

Here is some data I pulled from the leaderboards yesterday regarding what was shown on the player cards of the top 10 players of each division















That's the stats of the best 'Mechs in 1v1 if Clan Mechs were that good why there are almost none

Rest follows,need some time

[justcallme A S H]

Why have you linked Solaris data - twice - that has very little relevance to Quick Play and the current state of the game?

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H said:

1638876848[/url]' post='6436757']
Why have you linked Solaris data - twice - that has very little relevance to Quick Play and the current state of the game?

Looks like a placeholder for a longer thesis. I await the rest that shall follow.

But I think his point is going to be something along the lines that clan mechs are not competitive because there aren’t many in that list.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 07 December 2021 - 04:15 AM.

[pbiggz]

Hawok79, on 07 December 2021 - 02:40 AM, said:

First of all...Iam not Mad,iam serious and i know this Game very well

I add this to show some data there is no Balance,if there is,must here be more a mix of factions.
one to one is comparable

Rest follows,need some time

Rest follows,need some time

So I've figured you out. You're an "Inner Sphere Overpowered" guy. What a joke.

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 December 2021 - 04:12 AM, said:

Looks like a placeholder for a longer thesis. I await the rest that shall follow.

But I think his point is going to be something along the lines that clan mechs are not competitive because there aren’t many in that list.

Yeah don't hold your breath. "Inner Sphere Overpowered" is just as laughable as "Clan Overpowered".

This thread is a waste of memory.

[pattonesque]

Hawok79, on 07 December 2021 - 02:40 AM, said:

First of all...Iam not Mad,iam serious and i know this Game very well

I'm not really seeing it so far. When people provide reasons as to why the MAD-4L is the way that it is you either ignore them or don't seem to understand them. Like when you said the ERPPCs being in high mounts were a strength -- it shows you don't understand how the position of the cockpit matters.

[GoodTry]

My last drop last night had 4 MAD-4L's on the other side. It's definitely a popular mech at the moment.

I don't think CERLL alphas are comparable to a 50-damage Gauss/PPC alpha. You can easily roll the damage from CERLL. But a good gauss/PPC shot is going to do all of its damage to one component. Combine that with ECM and JJ's, and you have a very powerful mech, even with crap mounts.

I think it just needs HSL+1 instead of HSL+2, with no change to the heat quirks. A 50-pt PPFLD alpha at 900m isn't a great addition to the game, especially if it's coming from a jump-sniping ECM mech.

[pattonesque]

GoodTry, on 07 December 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

My last drop last night had 4 MAD-4L's on the other side. It's definitely a popular mech at the moment.

I don't think CERLL alphas are comparable to a 50-damage Gauss/PPC alpha. You can easily roll the damage from CERLL. But a good gauss/PPC shot is going to do all of its damage to one component. Combine that with ECM and JJ's, and you have a very powerful mech, even with crap mounts.

I think it just needs HSL+1 instead of HSL+2, with no change to the heat quirks. A 50-pt PPFLD alpha at 900m isn't a great addition to the game, especially if it's coming from a jump-sniping ECM mech.

I would say its ability to jump-snipe is limited. It's going to be floating and exposed for quite some time before it can bring the gauss to bear, and if it can't do that it's basically a fat Shadow Cat

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

it's a good mech. and it's far from OP, in QP specifically.

it's good while
-you have targets
-your team doesn't "yolo/rotatoe ftw"
-enemy team has either nor clue of your existence or
-enemy team is too scared to do sth about you.

basically, it is a coin-toss imHo. in some games you do well because of factors above,
in other games you do ****** cause factors above.

on top of that you have to hit things.. just saying. again: good mech, but it's quite "unreliable" in its performance.
a med/hvy laserboat mech (and let's not mention the idf-crowd) is SO MUCH MORE consistent in what it can&will do, no matter the team/enemy team - so usually I'd prefer that.

and here's the final thought on that: if "we" prefer other mechs to it (as you might as well), it can't be that OP.


now, FW and Comp might and will certainly be a different cattle of fish than QP, but you don't hear 'them' complain, right?

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 07 December 2021 - 06:57 AM.

[GoodTry]

I'm not saying it's necessarily OP, but it causes a problem in that it's very unfun to play against. Even if the person in the MAD-4L doesn't get a great match score, spamming 50-pt PPFLD alphas out of nowhere just isn't fun for anyone to play against. It's not a good addition to the game.

pattonesque, on 07 December 2021 - 06:53 AM, said:

I would say its ability to jump-snipe is limited. It's going to be floating and exposed for quite some time before it can bring the gauss to bear, and if it can't do that it's basically a fat Shadow Cat

I've seen people jump-snipe in it, but you may be right. Either way, the JJ's + ECM + long range mean that it can be shooting you from practically anywhere.

[pbiggz]

GoodTry, on 07 December 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

I'm not saying it's necessarily OP, but it causes a problem in that it's very unfun to play against. Even if the person in the MAD-4L doesn't get a great match score, spamming 50-pt PPFLD alphas out of nowhere just isn't fun for anyone to play against. It's not a good addition to the game.



I've seen people jump-snipe in it, but you may be right. Either way, the JJ's + ECM + long range mean that it can be shooting you from practically anywhere.

Its a paper mech. And it's dead slow. Marauder IIs do not take return fire well.

Edited by pbiggz, 07 December 2021 - 07:06 AM.

[GoodTry]

pbiggz, on 07 December 2021 - 07:05 AM, said:

Its a paper mech. And it's dead slow. Marauder IIs do not take return fire well.

That has nothing to do with my post.

[pbiggz]

GoodTry, on 07 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

That has nothing to do with my post.

I think it does. Being able to put 50 points down range on one or two components is easily balanced by having that come from a mech that is not fast, maneuverable, or durable.

Like i said earlier in the thread, I can get some good damage down range, but once someone knows im there, and a faster mech chases me down, the game is basically over unless a teammate bails me out. You can't brawl, you cant outrun things. All you can do is position cleverly, and make use of stealth armour as best as possible.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

GoodTry, on 07 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

That has nothing to do with my post.

it has everything to do with it; there's a Mar with peeps&gauss? you push engage it.
and it's gone.

ofc the 50pt alpha is painful. again: that's why you go and kill it.
it is only a problem if you don't.
then again: that is exactly why so many matches are lost in the first place: one side 'decides' to do nothing. the other does a bit and snowballs from there.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 07 December 2021 - 07:11 AM.

[GoodTry]

pbiggz, on 07 December 2021 - 07:10 AM, said:

I think it does. Being able to put 50 points down range on one or two components is easily balanced by having that come from a mech that is not fast, maneuverable, or durable. . . . All you can do is position cleverly, and make use of stealth armour as best as possible.

I think you missed this part:

GoodTry, on 07 December 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

I'm not saying it's necessarily OP, but it causes a problem in that it's very unfun to play against.

Do you like out-of-nowhere 50-pt alphas?