71 replies to this topic

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 30 December 2021 - 03:03 AM, said:

"option" at a loss of quirks and some mechs lose viability.

No, do not move goalposts. The discussion was not about how viable some 'Mech builds are according to you.


The discussion was whether MWO 'Mechs can carry AMS.

You said:

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

80% of mechs can only carry one.. some can't carry any.

So just name 'Mechs that you consider to be incapable of carrying AMS.

[Quandoo]

Preventing damage should count more into rewards. AMS and tanking for other mechs. If they dps the same target which is firing on you, you should see bonus rewards.

Also AMS should be able to take down arti shells

Edited by Quandoo, 30 December 2021 - 07:14 AM.

[martian]

Quandoo, on 30 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

Preventing damage should count more into rewards.

Missiles destroyed by your AMS boost your Match Score.

Quandoo, on 30 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

AMS and tanking for other mechs. If they dps the same target which is firing on you, you should see bonus rewards.

There are some cases when somebody steps in the open, eats a lot of enemy fire, achieves absolutely nothing ... and dies.

Quandoo, on 30 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

Also AMS should be able to take down arti shells

In BattleTech AMS is essentially a special Machine Gun or SPL. It can handle relatively light and fragile missiles such as LRMs, SRMs, etc.

Artillery Strikes were nerfed some time ago. I am not sure if another nerf is needed.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Quandoo, on 30 December 2021 - 07:07 AM, said:

Preventing damage should count more into rewards. AMS and tanking for other mechs. If they dps the same target which is firing on you, you should see bonus rewards.

Also AMS should be able to take down arti shells

AMS already goes into rewards. and tanking.. well..
it kinda does, too.
and kinda doesn't.

long story short: if "tanking" as in "taking damage for whatever reason" gives out rewards, that will give people even more wrong ideas how to "win" in this game. and it's bad enough as it is in Quickplay.

if anything, rewards for actively trying to win should improve, by a fair margin.
maybe that would help with the atrocious passivity that plagues and ultimately kills the fun out of SO many QP-matches.

[cazeral]

AMS is broken, but not useless. Watch a Kitfox completely neutralise an LRM 80 mech at close range from behind hard cover! All the missiles erupt as they are launched even though the AMS is totally hidden behind hard cover, but the shots are passing through solid terrain.

However, in relation to the OP and to other posters, during an event, the sheer numbers of lrm/atm trails overloads the game's mechanics and it is not unusual to see no attempts at knocking missiles down, most likely because the game is tracking a missile stream outside of the AMS's reaction bubble/range.

[pbiggz]

cazeral, on 30 December 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

AMS is broken, but not useless. Watch a Kitfox completely neutralise an LRM 80 mech at close range from behind hard cover! All the missiles erupt as they are launched even though the AMS is totally hidden behind hard cover, but the shots are passing through solid terrain.

However, in relation to the OP and to other posters, during an event, the sheer numbers of lrm/atm trails overloads the game's mechanics and it is not unusual to see no attempts at knocking missiles down, most likely because the game is tracking a missile stream outside of the AMS's reaction bubble/range.

I dont think the triple AMS kitfox is broken, considering... its a kitfox...

[D A T A]

AMS is useless

unfortunatelly a big part of the Cauldron thinks its good

[ScrapIron Prime]

D A T A, on 30 December 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

AMS is useless

unfortunatelly a big part of the Cauldron thinks its good

Its certainly rarely worth the tonnage investment at your level of play, yes. IMHO, the lower in the tiers you go, the more valuable it is because missile spam becomes more prevalent.

[D A T A]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 December 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

Its certainly rarely worth the tonnage investment at your level of play, yes. IMHO, the lower in the tiers you go, the more valuable it is because missile spam becomes more prevalent.

missile spam is prevalent even in tier 1, i just find stupid that aimbot based weapons are so strong

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 30 December 2021 - 04:12 AM, said:

No, do not move goalposts. The discussion was not about how viable some 'Mech builds are according to you.


The discussion was whether MWO 'Mechs can carry AMS.

You said:

So just name 'Mechs that you consider to be incapable of carrying AMS.

Yes as i said they cannot..

D A T A, on 30 December 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

AMS is useless

unfortunatelly a big part of the Cauldron thinks its good

Finally someone honest.. I don't think they think they are good they just want everyone else to think they are.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 31 December 2021 - 10:42 PM.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 31 December 2021 - 10:41 PM, said:

Yes as i said they cannot..

Just name those 'Mechs that can not be equipped with AMS according to you. Is it so difficult to support your claim with some facts?

Nomad Tech, on 31 December 2021 - 10:41 PM, said:

Finally someone honest.. I don't think they think they are good they just want everyone else to think they are.

Just to be sure: Are you talking about the Cauldron members?

[caravann]

against the real LRM boats it has no effect at all when being the target. You're playing support to other team mates being hit by LRM.

You can not be the target when using AMS as a protection.

[martian]

caravann, on 01 January 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

against the real LRM boats it has no effect at all when being the target.

You can see how effective your AMS is when observe enemy LRMs exploding in the air, as your AMS is destroying them.

Corsair with multiple AMS sometimes survive and destroy a surprising amount of LRMs, especially with some skill nodes unlocked.

caravann, on 01 January 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

You're playing support to other team mates being hit by LRM.

Your AMS can help other members of your team, sure. But that does not mean that you must be "playing support" every time you deploy in a 'Mech with AMS and follow them wherever they go.

caravann, on 01 January 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

You can not be the target when using AMS as a protection.

What? I have successfully targeted many enemy AMS-equipped 'Mechs with my LRMs. And on the other hand, my 'Mech is often the target of enemy LRMs, even if I have AMS.

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 01 January 2022 - 12:42 AM, said:

Just name those 'Mechs that can not be equipped with AMS according to you. Is it so difficult to support your claim with some facts?


Just to be sure: Are you talking about the Cauldron members?

Nearly 80% of clan mechs. without changing omni pods, like i said at the start.. there are no goalpost its a fact you lose half of what makes your mech good if you change pods.. so no AMS!

And yes i am.

caravann, on 01 January 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

against the real LRM boats it has no effect at all when being the target. You're playing support to other team mates being hit by LRM.

You can not be the target when using AMS as a protection.

Unless you run full AMS builds with 3 or 4 on like 3-4 mechs in game.. even then if two or three dedicated lurm boats target you you'll be dead..

Why do you think that Youtuber got banned due to exploiting a while back.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 01 January 2022 - 06:05 PM.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 01 January 2022 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nearly 80% of clan mechs. without changing omni pods, like i said at the start.. there are no goalpost its a fact you lose half of what makes your mech good if you change pods.. so no AMS!

At the start you did not talk about Clan 'Mechs, but about all MWO 'Mechs. See your own original post:

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

80% of mechs can only carry one.. some can't carry any.

When asked, you moved goalposts just to Clan OmniMechs. And even then you are coming with all kinds of talk, so you do not have to admit that every Clan 'Mech in MWO (no matter if BattleMech or OmniMech) can carry AMS, if its owner desires.

When you say "its a fact", it is actually just your opinion.

Nomad Tech, on 01 January 2022 - 06:03 PM, said:

martian, on 01 January 2022 - 12:42 AM, said:

Nomad Tech, on 31 December 2021 - 10:41 PM, said:

D A T A, on 30 December 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

AMS is useless
unfortunatelly a big part of the Cauldron thinks its good

Finally someone honest.. I don't think they think they are good they just want everyone else to think they are.

Just to be sure: Are you talking about the Cauldron members?

And yes i am.

Interesting. And why do you think that Cauldron members are not good?

[MrMadguy]

How do I find out, that something is wrong with AMS? It's very simple. When I see "Incoming missiles", I just look at their direction, see them flying towards me and just notice distance, when my AMSes start to fire. And I just don't think, that it's 190m. May be 10-20 max.

It would be interesting to do some math here. Max range is 275, speed is 100. Missile speed is 190-210. It takes 0.9s for AMS to start destroying missiles. It's 90m away from 'Mech. Total time before hitting 'Mech - is 0.45s. AMS rate of fire - is 105/s, or 30 shots/s. 3.5dmg each - guaranteed kill of 0.9-1.3 health missile. 0.45s = 13.5 missiles destroyed. By one AMS. So, 2xAMS = 27 missiles. 3xAMS = 40.5 missiles. 4xAMS = 54 missiles. And this is true for IS LRM only. For Clan it would be even better.

So, here is the question. I was lurmed till death within just few seconds by clan LRMs in recent match, while having 2xAMS. Because my team failed to kill Lights, getting close to us, and then to kill UAVs, they were popping. I'm not even sure, if somebody in my team didn't have extra AMSes. How many launchers should enemies have had for this to happen?

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 January 2022 - 04:18 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

MrMadguy, on 02 January 2022 - 03:37 AM, said:

So, here is the question. I was lurmed till death within just few seconds by clan LRMs in recent match, while having 2xAMS. Because my team failed to kill Lights, getting close to us, and then to kill UAVs, they were popping. I'm not even sure, if somebody in my team didn't have extra AMSes. How many launchers should enemies have had for this to happen?

Skim over my math further up in this thread: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6439631

Clan LRM 15's for example have a health of 1 each. So one AMS will knock down on average 5 lurms at a time if they're coming at you, so your two AMS were cutting 10 missiles out per salvo. (More if you have AMS overload and the firer doesn't have velocity boosts.) Its more effective if you're protecting people behind you as the missiles go through your whole "bubble" of protection, less if you're protecting someone beside or in front of you. Ditto with your team's AMS protecting you.

So a single Night Gyr kitted out as an LRM 60 would still Hulk-vs-Loki your mech if 2 AMS are all that's standing it its way. 50 missiles are getting through. If they fire their lurms 2 by 2 to reduce ghost heat, then less are getting through. Maybe 44-46 missiles.

Cover is therefore still the best defense.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 02 January 2022 - 09:03 AM.

[cazeral]

pbiggz, on 30 December 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

I dont think the triple AMS kitfox is broken, considering... its a kitfox...

Absolutely and completely missed the point about AMS being broken . . . one day, maybe people will read and think about what they have read, then post a comment . . . until then /sigh

[Captain Caveman DE]

cazeral, on 02 January 2022 - 09:48 AM, said:

Absolutely and completely missed the point about AMS being broken . . . one day, maybe people will read and think about what they have read, then post a comment . . . until then /sigh

I should copy that quote and aim it at you, hm? a bit of context goes a long way, but feel free to ignore it further.
ofc the "support"fox is relevant to an AMS-discussion.
can't say I like the build, but it simply is and others use it, so might as well include it here.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 03 January 2022 - 08:51 AM.

[Primal Fusion]

ScrapIron Prime, on 02 January 2022 - 08:56 AM, said:

Skim over my math further up in this thread: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6439631

Clan LRM 15's for example have a health of 1 each. So one AMS will knock down on average 5 lurms at a time if they're coming at you, so your two AMS were cutting 10 missiles out per salvo. (More if you have AMS overload and the firer doesn't have velocity boosts.) Its more effective if you're protecting people behind you as the missiles go through your whole "bubble" of protection, less if you're protecting someone beside or in front of you. Ditto with your team's AMS protecting you.

So a single Night Gyr kitted out as an LRM 60 would still Hulk-vs-Loki your mech if 2 AMS are all that's standing it its way. 50 missiles are getting through. If they fire their lurms 2 by 2 to reduce ghost heat, then less are getting through. Maybe 44-46 missiles.

Cover is therefore still the best defense.

Quick question, i thought ams did 105 dmg per second at base and it was 3.5dmg per ams shot(30 shots per second = 105/dps). u say 4 missles(1hp missles) per 1.31 seconds, but shouldn't it be more like around 30 missles shot down.(probably less due to max range being weaker.) I'm just reading the ingame stats btw, also the damage drop off from optimal to max is massive so the 200-275 range is minimal dmg. So i would assume kitfox-c would be a good ams mech as it gets 15% range this along with the range skills gets u to 30%, so your at 247 optimal range.

Again i'm just reading in-game stats, the more likely reason your eating missles is your ams range is very low and the enemy missile velocity is boosted so your time window to kill missles with your ams is very low.