43 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Therax, on 29 December 2021 - 07:23 PM, said:

The Jenner is ~354m away from you and moving away from your Timber Wolf when you fired your 396m range streak missiles.

If the Jenner travels another ~42m away from the point where the streaks were fired they will not do any damage as they will then be out of range. It is close, but it looks to me like the Jenner manage to make that distance before the missiles impacted.

Yep exactly.

Dave has basically used the worst example possible while showing indeed, that he doesn't understand his own video... And to make matters worse, it is 5 years old?

That is a big, big yikes

KodiakGW, on 29 December 2021 - 01:18 PM, said:

IMO - I wouldn't even bother. You'll spend a lot of time putting together your proof, and have it dismissed as "anecdotal evidence" (which is not the proper use because you actually are providing evidence) by people who quick to like anyone who posts just as much, or less, video or screen shots not showing the same. Plus you will also get responses just saying that they don't experience what you are seeing, with zero evidence to support their statement (which is the definition of anecdotal).

Lets not confuse lack of understanding with proof. Or sensationalist arguments where you refuse to even answer questions when people try to further understand the issue(s) at hand

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2021 - 01:43 AM.

[Davegt27]

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

nothing will happen

Edited by Davegt27, 30 December 2021 - 04:38 AM.

[martian]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 04:36 AM, said:

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

nothing will happen

Your video is from December 2016, while now we are in December 2021, almost in 2022.

The MWO gameplay has changed in many respects since 2016. There are many new 'Mechs, new weapons, new maps, new equipment, existing 'Mechs and weapons have different stats than they used to have , etc.

Perhaps it would be useful to record a new video that would show the gameplay as it is now.

[Davegt27]

martian, on 30 December 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

Your video is from December 2016, while now we are in December 2021, almost in 2022.

The MWO gameplay has changed in many respects since 2016. There are many new 'Mechs, new weapons, new maps, new equipment, existing 'Mechs and weapons have different stats than they used to have , etc.

Perhaps it would be useful to record a new video that would show the gameplay as it is now.

streaks have not changed that much
I don't recall any streak buffs
I could be wrong

and that is only one vid and one example

unless you can show how posting a video has done anything

[martian]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 06:13 AM, said:

streaks have not changed that much
I don't recall any streak buffs
I could be wrong

I did not say "buffed", I said "different". I did not find the equipment table from 2016, but I found one from 2018:

• Clan Streak SRM-6 used to do 12 damage, now it does 10.2 damage.
  
• Clan Streak SRM-6 used to have 6 second cooldown, now it has 4.5 second cooldown.
  
• Clan Streak SRM-6 used to have 4 heat, now it has 3.5 heat.
  
• Clan Streak SRM-6 used to fly 230 m/s, now it flies 260 m/s

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 06:13 AM, said:

and that is only one vid and one example

unless you can show how posting a video has done anything

I merely suggested what you could do to illustrate your opinion. If you do not like it my suggestion, then of course you are free to do nothing.

[Horseman]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 06:13 AM, said:

streaks have not changed that much
I don't recall any streak buffs
I could be wrong

Range changes that were concurrent with the skill tree, dequirkening and engine desync in 2017, lock-on mechanics change in... 2018, was it?... that removed Artemis buffs, streak clustering changes circa 2017-2017 that focused the damage on torsos instead of limbs, and then you have the whole host of new quirk and mobility changes from this year. Those would have had substantial effect on Streaks even if you don't remember many direct changes to the weapon values themselves.

Edited by Horseman, 30 December 2021 - 06:48 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Davegt27 said:

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

That point being what exactly?

Davegt27 said:

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

Oh, indeed it's rather pointless to post a cherry-picked screenshot / video when it comes to trying to prove a general claim about the state of the game, a particular weapon system or the relative power of the different weight classes. It's all about avoiding systematicly and/or deliberatley introduced biases ... something a singular screenshot / video will rarely if ever achieve. Guess why I challenged the OP to providing footage of 20 consecutive matches? In order to avoid or at least raise the barrier for cherry-picking as well as having a sample size that isn't useless from the get go.

Therefore it's to be expected that ...

Davegt27 said:

nothing will happen

... nothing will happen because someone posts a - most likely heavily edited and cherrypicked - video here on the forums.

Davegt27 said:

and that is only one vid and one example

Which brings us straight back to the entire point you yourself missed: It's just one video / example - as in "singular data point" - that doesn't even truly demonstrate what one might want to demonstrate with regards to the "invulnerability" of Light mechs or how "bad" Streaks allegedly are against Lights.

Davegt27 said:

unless you can show how posting a video has done anything

Well, I can't be sure but I would suspect that posting or rather sending a video to PGI of someone using an aimbot has the effect of them starting an investigation and possibly banning the offender but I guess that won't satisfy your demand here.

So here we're back to where you'd need a whole series of datapoints - in this case video footage a larger number of games - that are collected with the least possible amount of systematic errors and free from as much biases as possible.

The base problem usually being that the person trying anything like that is going to try to "prove" the truthfulness of their claim also being the correct conclusion (thus both begging the question and inadvertendly being prone to deliberately or subconsciously cherry-picking and or introducing other biases into the examination) instead of seeing their claim as a hypothesis which needs to be examined for thruthfulness by comitting to an unbiased examination in the first place.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 30 December 2021 - 07:39 AM.

[Escef]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 04:36 AM, said:

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

nothing will happen

Well, yeah, when you post a video that shows things working normally, as they are officially described and intended to work, what changes do you want made? What were you expecting? Do you want missile range to be based upon your position after firing? Is that it? Oh that would be hilarious if we had mechs that moved nearly as fast as the missiles, two fast mechs involved in a chase, the pursuer fires missiles that continue to pursue across half the map as the two mechs speed along, gaining a few scant meters a minute...

So, seriously, what change do you think is called for here? I honestly want to know. Tell me the thought process.

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 04:36 AM, said:

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

nothing will happen

You posted a video with timestamp and didn't give any insight why, what is it supposed to show us?
So people assume you expect that jenner to explode but it did not and it's hitreg or some other problem with game?
People explained why it did not explode.
Do you disagree with them? If yes, explain?

So what is your point with this video so this wouldn't be totally pointless in your mind?

[Davegt27]

Der Geisterbaer, on 30 December 2021 - 07:29 AM, said:

That point being what exactly?



Oh, indeed it's rather pointless to post a cherry-picked screenshot / video when it comes to trying to prove a general claim about the state of the game, a particular weapon system or the relative power of the different weight classes. It's all about avoiding systematicly and/or deliberatley introduced biases ... something a singular screenshot / video will rarely if ever achieve. Guess why I challenged the OP to providing footage of 20 consecutive matches? In order to avoid or at least raise the barrier for cherry-picking as well as having a sample size that isn't useless from the get go.

Therefore it's to be expected that ...


... nothing will happen because someone posts a - most likely heavily edited and cherrypicked - video here on the forums.



Which brings us straight back to the entire point you yourself missed: It's just one video / example - as in "singular data point" - that doesn't even truly demonstrate what one might want to demonstrate with regards to the "invulnerability" of Light mechs or how "bad" Streaks allegedly are against Lights.



Well, I can't be sure but I would suspect that posting or rather sending a video to PGI of someone using an aimbot has the effect of them starting an investigation and possibly banning the offender but I guess that won't satisfy your demand here.

So here we're back to where you'd need a whole series of datapoints - in this case video footage a larger number of games - that are collected with the least possible amount of systematic errors and free from as much biases as possible.

The base problem usually being that the person trying anything like that is going to try to "prove" the truthfulness of their claim also being the correct conclusion (thus both begging the question and inadvertendly being prone to deliberately or subconsciously cherry-picking and or introducing other biases into the examination) instead of seeing their claim as a hypothesis which needs to be examined for thruthfulness by comitting to an unbiased examination in the first place.

well one and main point is people coming out of the wood work to shout you down
another is there is no problem with the game everything is great
videos out side of a date range are not allowed (you don't specify the date range but are quick to nullify videos)

I have yet to see that posting videos has helped
unless you can show me an example

I took this one this morning (we been seeing this for years)
https://www.twitch.t...ge=7d&sort=time

edit: Which brings us straight back to the entire point you yourself missed: It's just one video / example - as in "singular data point" - that doesn't even truly demonstrate what one might want to demonstrate with regards to the "invulnerability" of Light mechs or how "bad" Streaks allegedly are against Lights.

yes very true I see your point about 1 video
I was not trying to proclaim that lights are invulnerable
I was just trying to show what happens if you post a video

Edited by Davegt27, 30 December 2021 - 02:21 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Davegt27 said:

well one and main point is people coming out of the wood work to shout you down

And you pretty much ignored everything you just quoted me on and just re-iterate your previous accusations ~shrug~
But you don't stop there ...

Davegt27 said:

another is there is no problem with the game everything is great

.. you just go straight into a serious strawman because there aren't that many people who claim that "everything with the game is great".

Davegt27 said:

videos out side of a date range are not allowed

Do you really expect old data (be it a singular data point or a decent enough sample) to be considered "valid" when they were clearly taken prior to many changes in the game but their claims are concerning problems that supposedly exist right now?

And please don't try to plead special cases about bugs like the "heat bug" or whatver bug you're trying to point to further down because this particular thread didn't come into existance because of an alleged bug but rather because I challenged the OP to prove his personal claims about his own player abilities and his opinions on "brokenness" of certain mechs.

Davegt27 said:

(you don't specify the date range but are quick to nullify videos)

See, the problem there is: It isn't "my" or anyone else's duty to lay out the principles of proper sampling / testing. That's actually on the person who tries to prove / disprove their own hypothesis. If they fail at conducting a systematically and otherwise unbiased examination the "peer review" indeed ends with their "proof" being dismissed ... and rightfully so.

Davegt27 said:

I have yet to see that posting videos has helped
unless you can show me an example

Going back to the stuff that you quoted but largely ignored content wise: And you'll wait for something like that to happen till the end of days whenever a video is posted that by its very nature cannot even remotely support the claims that are being made. So I certainly won't be able to show you a specific video that helped in a particular instance but I also won't bother searching for one because if "you" as a proponent of a particular claim cannot be bothered to properly formulate a hypothesis and then conduct an appropriate examination to support your hypothesis I nor anyone else will do that for "you" either.

Davegt27 said:

I took this one this morning (we been seeing this for years)
https://www.twitch.t...ge=7d&sort=time

And your little video is supposed to show what exactly?

Its title simply poses a vague question "Is this a bug?" and then something happens in the video where the audio suggests that you think a bug occured (most likely something to do with jump jets not working correctly).

So now you expect what exactly to happen in here (a thread that isn't about bugs in the first place)?

A confirmation by viewers that there's indeed "a bug"? Well, you'll certainly find some who will agree while others will speculate about the nature of this "bug" and some might even find an explaination (that may be correct or utterly false) for the observed behavior. But if you expect an investigation by PGI into the possible existance of the "bug" you're referring to, then indeed posting the video in here will do pretty much jack sh*t ... and looking at MW:O's current position within a software's life-cyle one is better off with not expecting anything from PGI's side with regards to fixing bugs that cannot be reproduced constistently enough to warrant (scarce) developer time even under the assumption that you had properly presented your case towards PGI ... which - as much as it pains me to say it - you simply haven't.

Davegt27 said:

I was just trying to show what happens if you post a video

And I was trying to tell you why the things happen that happen if you post a video in the manner that most videos are posted. I even pointed out how you and others could actually work against what is usually happening but then you'd have to put far more effort into the process of collecting video footage and in how you state your hypothesis and then present your results towards the correct audience ... and that's were good old Mr. Hitchens comes into play: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 30 December 2021 - 04:10 PM.

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 02:16 PM, said:

well one and main point is people coming out of the wood work to shout you down
another is there is no problem with the game everything is great
videos out side of a date range are not allowed (you don't specify the date range but are quick to nullify videos)

I have yet to see that posting videos has helped
unless you can show me an example

I took this one this morning (we been seeing this for years)
https://www.twitch.t...ge=7d&sort=time

In your streak video post I didn't really see much shouting down, mostly explained why jenner lived. I don't think there is even single player that claims that this game is perfect and without problems.
Old videos are old, even now this game is changing slowly and that's why there isn't much point posting old videos, specially balance side of stuff because they do not represent current iteration of MWO.

Some issues like that in twitch clip is known, it has been talked before... Years ago like you mentioned. PGI does not have understanding or required skill to fix that, specially now that this game is in semi maintenance mode.
Used to record some clips about it myself.

as I like playing fast and jumpy mechs happens now and then, I jump and hit some terrain obstacle and get slingshotted with stupid velocity to some direction and take shitloads of leg dmg.

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 02:16 PM, said:

yes very true I see your point about 1 video
I was not trying to proclaim that lights are invulnerable
I was just trying to show what happens if you post a video

edit: Which brings us straight back to the entire point you yourself missed: It's just one video / example - as in "singular data point" - that doesn't even truly demonstrate what one might want to demonstrate with regards to the "invulnerability" of Light mechs or how "bad" Streaks allegedly are against Lights.

If you post a video and explain what do you want us to see in it... that could help in that streak video I'm not sure what you want us to see?

[feeWAIVER]

Davegt27, on 30 December 2021 - 04:36 AM, said:

I thought you guys would like something to talk about
to prove a point

you know and I know its pointless
trying to post a video

nothing will happen

Hey now, that's not true.
Remember just a couple months ago when someone posted video of some top end players actively using aimbot/radar?
And naturally, you remember the swift and decisive action from the part of PGI, right?

.... right?

[Davegt27]

Der Geisterbaer, on 30 December 2021 - 02:58 PM, said:

And you pretty much ignored everything you just quoted me on and just re-iterate your previous accusations ~shrug~
But you don't stop there ...


.. you just go straight into a serious strawman because there aren't that many people who claim that "everything with the game is great".



Do you really expect old data (be it a singular data point or a decent enough sample) to be considered "valid" when they were clearly taken prior to many changes in the game but their claims are concerning problems that supposedly exist right now?

And please don't try to plead special cases about bugs like the "heat bug" or whatver bug you're trying to point to further down because this particular thread didn't come into existance because of an alleged bug but rather because I challenged the OP to prove his personal claims about his own player abilities and his opinions on "brokenness" of certain mechs.



See, the problem there is: It isn't "my" or anyone else's duty to lay out the principles of proper sampling / testing. That's actually on the person who tries to prove / disprove their own hypothesis. If they fail at conducting a systematically and otherwise unbiased examination the "peer review" indeed ends with their "proof" being dismissed ... and rightfully so.



Going back to the stuff that you quoted but largely ignored content wise: And you'll wait for something like that to happen till the end of days whenever a video is posted that by its very nature cannot even remotely support the claims that are being made. So I certainly won't be able to show you a specific video that helped in a particular instance but I also won't bother searching for one because if "you" as a proponent of a particular claim cannot be bothered to properly formulate a hypothesis and then conduct an appropriate examination to support your hypothesis I nor anyone else will do that for "you" either.



And your little video is supposed to show what exactly?

Its title simply poses a vague question "Is this a bug?" and then something happens in the video where the audio suggests that you think a bug occured (most likely something to do with jump jets not working correctly).

So now you expect what exactly to happen in here (a thread that isn't about bugs in the first place)?

A confirmation by viewers that there's indeed "a bug"? Well, you'll certainly find some who will agree while others will speculate about the nature of this "bug" and some might even find an explaination (that may be correct or utterly false) for the observed behavior. But if you expect an investigation by PGI into the possible existance of the "bug" you're referring to, then indeed posting the video in here will do pretty much jack sh*t ... and looking at MW:O's current position within a software's life-cyle one is better off with not expecting anything from PGI's side with regards to fixing bugs that cannot be reproduced constistently enough to warrant (scarce) developer time even under the assumption that you had properly presented your case towards PGI ... which - as much as it pains me to say it - you simply haven't.



And I was trying to tell you why the things happen that happen if you post a video in the manner that most videos are posted. I even pointed out how you and others could actually work against what is usually happening but then you'd have to put far more effort into the process of collecting video footage and in how you state your hypothesis and then present your results towards the correct audience ... and that's were good old Mr. Hitchens comes into play: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

the only thing that has been proven is how much of a waste of time it would be to post a video

which is what I was trying to point out

now no one is obligated to listen to me (people can play the game and see for themselves)
and its not my job or yours to lord it over the MWO forms telling people
what they can or can not post

[ApolloKaras]

martian, on 29 December 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

I hate all kinds of compulsory registrations.

Thats the problem I have with nVidia. They still require the garbage log in. I just install the basic driver.

[PocketYoda]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2021 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yep exactly.

Dave has basically used the worst example possible while showing indeed, that he doesn't understand his own video... And to make matters worse, it is 5 years old?

That is a big, big yikes



Lets not confuse lack of understanding with proof. Or sensationalist arguments where you refuse to even answer questions when people try to further understand the issue(s) at hand

Unless its your proof then its law and is changed in a month and damn everyone else..

[martian]

Curccu, on 29 December 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

I don't think so..it's included in geforce experience
https://www.nvidia.c...rce-experience/
I'm logged into it but don't really know if I have to.

ApolloKaras, on 30 December 2021 - 08:38 PM, said:

Thats the problem I have with nVidia. They still require the garbage log in. I just install the basic driver.

Thanks for the help, guys. Yesterday I installed a different software that does not require registration.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Davegt27 said:

the only thing that has been proven is how much of a waste of time it would be to post a video

Nothing the like has truly been "proven" but you certainly have shown yourself unwilling or unable to handle the "burden of proof" - which is called a burden for good reasons - when making particular claims and instead chose the defeatist "sour grapes" postition where you instead claim that (making and) posting videos would be a waset of (your) time. ~shrug~

Davegt27 said:

which is what I was trying to point out

And I'd say that you failed at doing so ...

Davegt27 said:

now no one is obligated to listen to me

How gracious of you.

Davegt27 said:

(people can play the game and see for themselves)

And they can then come in here and make generalized claims (that they incorrectly tend to call 'facts') about their experiences but should not expect that the other users in here will bow to them for making those claims.

Davegt27 said:

and its not my job or yours to lord it over the MWO forms telling people
what they can or can not post

Yet you are trying very hard. ~laugh~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 31 December 2021 - 03:06 AM.

[Davegt27]

your either new or been living under a rock

everyone that plays MWO knows what I am talking about

if you fell the need to pick apart a post line by line
over a video game is the very definition of trying very very hard
now if a video game post fails your approval rating feel free to move on

could you please start playing the game
so we don't have to explain every little point with date stamps

Edited by Davegt27, 31 December 2021 - 12:00 PM.

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 31 December 2021 - 12:00 PM, said:

your either new or been living under a rock

everyone that plays MWO knows what I am talking about

if you fell the need to pick apart a post line by line
over a video game is the very definition of trying very very hard
now if a video game post fails your approval rating feel free to move on

could you please start playing the game
so we don't have to explain every little point with date stamps

If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. If you provide "evidence" that is shaky, people will dismiss it as such. That hs nothing to do with MWO, that's just how you make arguments.

So go get actual proof, or stop clutching your pearls.