186 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't even play anymore. I don't need to win. I was soft banned when groups were added to solo. The game has fewer players and I'm sure in no small part to groups being added to solo que. The evidence is in favor of my argument whether you like it or not.

If you don't play anymore, then you don't have any evidence. Period. Why are you even here?

That would explain why you completely ignored my good faith question.

Okay, Devil's advocate question then. What is negative for you about playing the game in the face of small groups that never happened before the queues merged? Toxicity? Win/Loss rate? Something else?

[firesea]

I have never once played with groups in MWO mostly because i have no friends and i am shy, but groups in qp have not affected my enjoyment of the game. I have dropped with the a group on my team and pub stomp and then having the same group drop against me in the next and pub stomp them return.

Feel like these post are pilots that just want to blame someone else for getting blown up.

[pbiggz]

firesea, on 05 January 2022 - 06:17 AM, said:

Feel like these post are pilots that just want to blame someone else for getting blown up.

That's just about the heart and soul of it.

[DaZur]

Honest question... When did we as a player base (society?) become so soft and squishy in the face of adversity?

I run less-than-meta mechs because I enjoy the challenge. When I see pre-made groups I relish in being the guy to take some of them out. Yes, I play to "win" but not at the cost of wanting a squishy battlefield to farm from...

I dunno, this whole discussion feels an awful lot like snowflakes demanding safe spaces to play where their feeling don't get hurt...

[pbiggz]

DaZur, on 05 January 2022 - 06:38 AM, said:

Honest question... When did we as a player base (society?) become so soft and squishy in the face of adversity?

I run less-than-meta mechs because I enjoy the challenge. When I see pre-made groups I relish in being the guy to take some of them out. Yes, I play to "win" but not at the cost of wanting a squishy battlefield to farm from...

I dunno, this whole discussion feels an awful lot like snowflakes demanding safe spaces to play where their feeling don't get hurt...

Its a counterculture thing.

For some people, gaming is "for the kids" (even though that's false). When the old fogeys find a game they can call their own (mechwarrior), they try to clap back against the l33t epic g4m3r culture they (falsely) think defines gaming, mostly, by deliberately being bad at the game, and by pointing out and ridiculing skill and tactics as sweaty meta humping for (implied to be childish/immature) tryhards. Nothing at all wrong with enjoying the game rather than chasing the meta, i certainly don't prefer to meta hump, but I don't make it my entire personality.

In other words, some folks dont like putting in a modicum of effort, they want the game to bend around them, so, given that framework, if you outplay them, or enjoy a kind of play they don't, its not a skill differential, or preference, its an attack.

Edited by pbiggz, 05 January 2022 - 06:57 AM.

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 05 January 2022 - 06:56 AM, said:

Its a counterculture thing.

I can get behind your premise...

As you can imagine, I AM and old gamer who cut his teeth on detailed flight simulations and as such was the guy who took the P-40 (cuz it looked cool) over the P-51 yet still managed to hold my own.

I just can't quite wrap my head around looking for things to be made easier for the sake of my own edification... Must be senility setting in.

[pattonesque]

pbiggz, on 05 January 2022 - 06:56 AM, said:

Its a counterculture thing.

For some people, gaming is "for the kids" (even though that's false). When the old fogeys find a game they can call their own (mechwarrior), they try to clap back against the l33t epic g4m3r culture they (falsely) think defines gaming, mostly, by deliberately being bad at the game, and by pointing out and ridiculing skill and tactics as sweaty meta humping for (implied to be childish/immature) tryhards. Nothing at all wrong with enjoying the game rather than chasing the meta, i certainly don't prefer to meta hump, but I don't make it my entire personality.

In other words, some folks dont like putting in a modicum of effort, they want the game to bend around them, so, given that framework, if you outplay them, or enjoy a kind of play they don't, its not a skill differential, or preference, its an attack.

it's weird, right, because if I go and play, say, beer league softball and I suck at it, nobody really cares so long as I'm trying

but if I go play beer league softball and I bring a wooden bat and no glove and stand directly behind the pitcher because that's what I find fun, people will get rightly pissed

Edited by pattonesque, 05 January 2022 - 10:33 AM.

[1453 R]

I don't think it's so much a counterculture thing as it is simply people sucking and not willing to accept that they suck. The effect can be more pronounced in older players (though it can also be less pronounced, reminder to all that the Shrieking CoD Kiddie very much still exists) simply because many people assume that play time equates to practice. That if you've played a game for over a thousand hours you have to be really good at it because you've Put The Time In, and so if you keep having bad games it has to be the game's fault because you are super good and awesome due to your extensive experience.

Few casual players realize that playtime is not at all practice - sheer game experience can only take you so far. Practice is focused effort with the deliberate intent to improve a skill. Playtime is logging into the game and pushing the "PLAY" button. Practice is spending fifteen entire minutes in a Locust with one laser in the Training Ground, practicing high-speed drive-by laserings and challenging yourself to hold your beam on one component only, to try and improve your aim. Or downloading an aim trainer program and spending time using that instead of playing MWO. Practice is loading into a map in Training Grounds and meticulously going over it, actively working to commit terrain details, pathing, and distances to memory. Practice is seeking the assistance of a coach, or even just other like-minded players, to assist you in spotting your own weaknesses and coming up with corrective actions.

Sheer game experience, with absolutely no deliberate effort ever invested to try and improve, will produce an average player at best. Nothing wrong with being an average player. Not at all. But someone who is average, yet assumes they are exceptional due to simple time investment (or CoD Kiddie syndrome)? They can be a problem.

[DaZur]

pattonesque, on 05 January 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

it's weird, right, because if I go and play, say, beer league softball and I suck at it, nobody really cares so long as I'm trying

but if I go play beer league softball and I bring a wooden bat and no glove and stand directly behind the pitcher because that's what I find fun, people will get rightly pissed

That my friend is a very cheeky strawman argument...

There's a big difference between playing outside the usual and customary rules of the game and what's is being espoused in this thread. Group play is for all intents and purposes "usual and customary". A solo player may consider group play (i.e. coordination etc.) dirty pool in a quick play environment. But that in and of itself is not wrong.

Unless the player base grows exponentially, there is no alternative to allowing groups into quick play... If someone doesn't like groups and playing with and against groups... That's a you/them problem.

It makes zero sense to intentionally sabotage the shallow pool that is our current playerbase by rooting out groups. It's self-defeating.

Edited by DaZur, 05 January 2022 - 11:39 AM.

[pattonesque]

DaZur, on 05 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

That my fried is a very cheeky strawman argument...

There's a big difference between playing outside the usual and customary rules of the game and what's is being espoused in this thread. Group play is for all intents and purposes "usual and customary". A solo player may consider group play (i.e. coordination etc.) dirty pool in a quick play environment. But that in and of itself is not wrong.

Unless the player base grows exponentially, there is no alternative to allowing groups into quick play... If someone doesn't like groups and playing with and against groups... That's a you/them problem.

It makes zero sense to intentionally sabotage the shallow pool that is our current playerbase by rooting out groups. It's self-defeating.

oh I'm not in favor of separating groups/solos until (if) the population can support it

I'm just saying this for the folks who continually do dumb stuff and wonder why they're not getting better

[DaZur]

pattonesque, on 05 January 2022 - 11:30 AM, said:

oh I'm not in favor of separating groups/solos until (if) the population can support it

I'm just saying this for the folks who continually do dumb stuff and wonder why they're not getting better

Mea Culpa... I mis-understood your intent. cheers!

[SharDar]

My gripe with the group players is that it seems most of them are using private communication channels. I certainly can't back that up with any evidence, though. Good matches usually have a high level of communication about targets and priorities. So often, I ask for help using the mic and none is forthcoming. I can't tell if that's an issue with people not being on the coms or the generally poor level of teamwork in so many of the matches.

I don't expect anything to change, but this is the number one reason I'm unhappy with the game: the everyone-for-themselves attitude where people are playing for their individual stats. I'm more of a team playing, so this is very frustrating for me. I took several months off from playing, and I think it's only gotten worse. It's expected that a community like this will filter itself based on the prevailing attitude of the most frequent players, so I don't think that's something specifically wrong with MWO.

It may be time to move on again.

[pbiggz]

SharDar, on 05 January 2022 - 07:50 PM, said:

My gripe with the group players is that it seems most of them are using private communication channels. I certainly can't back that up with any evidence, though. Good matches usually have a high level of communication about targets and priorities. So often, I ask for help using the mic and none is forthcoming. I can't tell if that's an issue with people not being on the coms or the generally poor level of teamwork in so many of the matches.

I don't expect anything to change, but this is the number one reason I'm unhappy with the game: the everyone-for-themselves attitude where people are playing for their individual stats. I'm more of a team playing, so this is very frustrating for me. I took several months off from playing, and I think it's only gotten worse. It's expected that a community like this will filter itself based on the prevailing attitude of the most frequent players, so I don't think that's something specifically wrong with MWO.

It may be time to move on again.

I dont think there's been a substantial change in players using discord or teamspeak or mumble or vent. They used it in closed beta in 2012, they use it now.

[ccrider]

pbiggz, on 05 January 2022 - 07:58 PM, said:

I dont think there's been a substantial change in players using discord or teamspeak or mumble or vent. They used it in closed beta in 2012, they use it now.

I think me and my guys are the only ones left on Teamspeak. I'd switch to Discord but I have an aversion to furries.

Edited by ccrider, 05 January 2022 - 09:38 PM.

[ccrider]

Also; I remember when the forums were fun. Like real fun almost as good as playing. Now it's just boring. Just people talking about groups or bitching about how brawling or sniping or lurming is a no skill strategy or the only strategy or ruining the game or fixing the game or whatever.


I'm gonna go find NKVA and ask them to come back to the forums so I'm not so bored.

[Heavy Money]

SharDar, on 05 January 2022 - 07:50 PM, said:

My gripe with the group players is that it seems most of them are using private communication channels. I certainly can't back that up with any evidence, though. Good matches usually have a high level of communication about targets and priorities. So often, I ask for help using the mic and none is forthcoming. I can't tell if that's an issue with people not being on the coms or the generally poor level of teamwork in so many of the matches.

I don't expect anything to change, but this is the number one reason I'm unhappy with the game: the everyone-for-themselves attitude where people are playing for their individual stats. I'm more of a team playing, so this is very frustrating for me. I took several months off from playing, and I think it's only gotten worse. It's expected that a community like this will filter itself based on the prevailing attitude of the most frequent players, so I don't think that's something specifically wrong with MWO.

It may be time to move on again.

I play with a lot of different groups and they are all on their own comms, but they will still talk in game comms for important calls. And remember, a lot of people that won't talk back are still listening.

[justcallme A S H]

Ah the quarterly "remove da group" thread.



And the most important post in the entire thread is this...

Please read it over and over.

pattonesque, on 03 January 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

most groups are just dudes chatting amongst themselves and occasionally left-clicking

This is exactly what it is. This "zOMG elite boss player groups" out of the 100,000 or whatever matches a month they are a tiny percentage.

Get some realistic perspective for goodness sake. Stop the sensationalist nonsense.

[justcallme A S H]

And please ignore posts and comments like this which are factually, wrong.

If they are not wrong, they are completely and utterly unable to be proven/backed up with evidence.

Nomad Tech / Mechagnome / Samial, on 03 January 2022 - 06:11 PM, said:

there are no real benefits to teaming up as a faction.

Nomad Tech / Mechagnome / Samial, on 03 January 2022 - 06:11 PM, said:

Groups ruin teams more than it doesn't.. That team got real lucky that day..

Nomad Tech / Mechagnome / Samial, on 03 January 2022 - 06:11 PM, said:

Thats why you have teamed quick play and solo quick play the fact people left was because of the bias matchmaker and the fact griefers couldn't do what they loved..

[justcallme A S H]

ScrapIron Prime, on 04 January 2022 - 04:29 PM, said:

Four good players out of twelve would have to be utterly fan- or crap- tastic to “ruin” a game, and I’m just not seeing that with any frequency. I had good games and bad games before, I’m having good games and bad games now. IMO groups are often getting blamed for any game that goes against the player regardless of whether they had an outsized effect on the match.

Aside from some Dec matches I pretty much dropped solo from Sept-Dec.

100s of matches.

I saw exactly what you have. Groups having "that much" influence are few and far between. Yes there was obvious there was groups on one side, other side or both - however they were absolutely not having an overbearing infulence on match outcomes most of the time.

Certainly not to the point of ruining them. If anything it changed the boring "NASCAR" up a bit. I noticed a number of typical NASCAR rotation people getting curbstomped by a firing line (and them blinding rotating into it)... I had to laugh, they were often the salty ones about Groups.

So in effect Groups sometimes punish bad play - I'm not really seeing a problem there and it should if anything be encouraged.

Players exhibiting said bad play are unwilling to acknowledge or admit they engage in it get little sympathy from me especially in upper tiers.

[justcallme A S H]

CFC Conky, on 04 January 2022 - 05:19 PM, said:

Ash did a Twitch stream a while back where he started as a cadet and used only trial mechs to see how many matches it would take to get to T1, I can't remember the exact number of matches he took to do it but I believe it was less than 25.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Aidan Crenshaw, on 04 January 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

This was done before the PSR change and reset.

Yeah the one on stream was pre-change. I've done another as well, although that was off stream as it was in my free time which was limited so streaming it wasn't possible.

Within 3 games I was in Tier 4.
I think within 40-50 games I was in Tier 3.

I'd have to check extractly, I've written it down somewhere. It takes around 150-200 games for anyone solid to max the T1 bar but you are certainly into Tier 1 by that point.

Suffice to say anyone with greater than a 280-300 AvgMS (which is well above the average of playerbase) will be able to achieve similar rapid progression and won't be below a Tier 3 level for long and Tier 1 is maybe 250-350 matches, depending.