186 replies to this topic

[Castigatus]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 08:43 AM, said:

No, I implied that the combination of (meta) builds, synergy of the builds and combination are the reason. In pugs there is sometimes someone giving advice. However, if it is heeded is someting entirely different. And that's why teams shouldn't be allowed in casual.

What???

How does that in any way support that assertion?

You would have exactly the same thing if the same two players in the same two mechs sync dropped into that game, you even admitted yourself it didn't end well for them so how you think that supports your argument I really don't know.

If you're going to try and claim that people discussing builds, tactics, and mech choices with their friends somehow gives them an unfair advantage then I'm just going to ignore anything you say from now on since you obviously aren't worth taking seriously.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 08:43 AM, said:

No, I implied that the combination of (meta) builds, synergy of the builds and combination are the reason. In pugs there is sometimes someone giving advice. However, if it is heeded is someting entirely different. And that's why teams shouldn't be allowed in casual.

Two points here. First, and let me put this simply.

This is a team based multiplayer shooter with action sim features.
IF you want to join a match and not interact with anyone, you want to play mechwarrior 5, not mechwarrior online.

Second,

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 08:43 AM, said:

the combination of (meta) builds, synergy of the builds and combination

These don't actually go away if you ban all the groups. Meta builds are meta for a reason. They are commonly run and frequently provide results. The chances of getting a pair of meta laser builds who can then work well together even though they are pugs, has to be fairly high. So what you're doing is pointing at a fake problem, and then blaming groups for the fake problem.


And i should say, really actually they do go away if you ban groups, because everything goes away. Delete the most active and engaged part of the player base just because you think you'll win more, and you basically consign this game to oblivion.

Edited by pbiggz, 09 January 2022 - 08:53 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Look, all I say is this: you wanted group mode, you got group mode, e.g. skirmish. Was it healthy? According to the crying on the forum not.

Casual was healthy. And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 09 January 2022 - 09:18 AM.

[Castigatus]

Oh please, that is such utter ******** it's unreal.

Firstly, you're relying on at least six different variables all being the way you want them to be for every single group that plays the game, something that is absolutely not the case.

1. Synced builds
2. Meta Builds
3. Communication (which is utterly irrelevant anyway since that's something everyone has access to in this game by pushing one button)
4. Co-ordination
5. Experience
6. Willingness

The overwhelming majority of groups in this game will have at best 3-4 of those things, so you're basing your entire argument on something that is not even remotely true.

Secondly, you're saying that because some groups play as such purely for the advantage, something which again I do not agree is true, that every group should be excluded, which is not only grossly unfair but actively stupid.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Look, all I say is this: you wanted group mode, you got group mode, e.g. skirmish. Was it healthy? According to the crying on the forum not.

Casual was healthy. And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

Lets break this down cause there's alot of ******** going on in here.


This isn't theoretical. We've done the song and dance before.

Do you know why there are 4 mans in the QP queue? Because both of the queues were dying, and the most active players in the game needed somewhere to go.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Casual was healthy. And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

The vast majority of groups are just dudes on coms hanging out with their friends shooting robots, not sweaty comp tryhards farming the pugs. It's been established in other threads and in this one that just as many groups drag teams down as they do up, so suggesting that merely being in a group implies heightened coordination and thus an unfair advantage is misleading.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

Praytell, which game does it not work in? Because no other game punishes groups like MWO, even now, and for a game like this, the best way to get it new players is for people to bring their friends, which you seem to think should be grounds for a soft ban.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

Yeah so do i dude. Im mid tier 3, not a competitive sweatlord. I dont play very frequently, and when I do, I play with my friends.
You're telling me i shouldn't be allowed to do that, so maybe you should:

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

get off your high horse please.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

So this is revisionist at best. We've had quick play, which became a solo queue, which, if I remember correctly, allowed for small groups, and we had the group queue to grab 12 mans and the like. The population was far higher when we had those. We also had community warfare, which was a stomping ground for bigger units who enjoyed the partial RP aspect and cooperating with a wide array of other players from other units.

Faction play is dead. Suggesting that group players should go there is essentially telling them they deserve an empty queue because you think you'll win more. Frankly, you don't get to tell the most active players in the game that they aren't entitled to matches.

As I mentioned before, the group queue, was also dead. So this:

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

put simply, is a lie. The queues weren't merged to pander to people you don't like, they were merged so the matchmaker would function and people could get matches.

The heart and soul of your argument is based on the misleading assertions that groups always have an advantage, and that they exist as some sort of plot by PGI and group players to pander to their interests over yours, and that the interests of group players are inherently counter to and in conflict with those of the "solo queue".

Groups don't always have an advantage, they statistically do not change win loss rates, their presence in the quick play queue was a matter of necessity, not pandering to their interests, and their interests are your interests, because without them, this game is dead. We have fewer than a thousand active users at peak hours, fragmenting the queues because you think you'll win more is tantamount to suicide for this game, and suggesting they belong exclusively in separated group and factionplay queues that don't have enough players in them to really be viable, amounts to a soft ban.

This argument is capricious, selfish, without substance and should be dismissed entirely.

Edited by pbiggz, 09 January 2022 - 09:42 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

pbiggz, on 09 January 2022 - 09:37 AM, said:

put simply, is a lie. The queues weren't merged to pander to people you don't like, they were merged so the matchmaker would function and people could get matches.

Sorry, but that's a lie. The healthies queue of all was always the solo queue. It didn't need groups. I can't be arsed to search the old comments of Russ but in at least 2 he mentioned that it is done so that the grouped players can still play grouped. Don't twist facts: grouped people were added to a healthy mode and their mode was basically dead

[ScrapIron Prime]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

grouped people were added to a healthy mode and their mode was basically dead

Okay, fine. Groups were added to solo play because group play was dying and the group players represented the largest group of players most likely to spend money on the game. Add in the fact that it would be DEATH for a game to tell people they cannot play with friends [unless they're willing to endure a 30 minute wait for a Faction Play match], and the choice is an easy one.

tell you what... you go play nothing but faction play for 30 days. Then come back and tell everyone how GREAT it would be for everyone if we banished everyone who wants to play with their friends to that mode and that mode only, because that's the only other option outside of quick play. I humbly submit that your stance will soften.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

Sorry, but that's a lie. The healthies queue of all was always the solo queue. It didn't need groups. I can't be arsed to search the old comments of Russ but in at least 2 he mentioned that it is done so that the grouped players can still play grouped. Don't twist facts: grouped people were added to a healthy mode and their mode was basically dead

There are several things you are implying here.

First, you're stating this:

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

The healthies queue of all was always the solo queue. It didn't need groups.

But in stating this you are implying two things, first that the solo queue didn't itself have a population problem when the population dropped as low as it did, and second, that groups are not an essential part of the population, and thus, you are implying that removing them from the game wouldnt be ruinous to the population. This is not true. The reason it isn't true is this:

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

I can't be arsed to search the old comments of Russ but in at least 2 he mentioned that it is done so that the grouped players can still play grouped. Don't twist facts: grouped people were added to a healthy mode and their mode was basically dead

You're essentially admitting that PGI consolidated the queues so that the game's most active and invested players could find matches, and then suggesting it was some kind of malevolent special interest. So let me restate this again since you don't seem to want to understand.

This game has fewer than 1000 players at peak hours, and far less than that during off hours. The match maker struggles to keep the tier buckets closed as is. Any further fragmentation of an already small playerbase is tantamount to suicide for the game. It will compromise the matchmaker's ability to form balanced matches, and it will drive off the most active, and invested players the game has left.

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Look, all I say is this: you wanted group mode, you got group mode, e.g. skirmish. Was it healthy? According to the crying on the forum not.
Casual was healthy.

What skirmish? Skirmish is just one of the game modes. "group mode" was group queue, it died because stupid decisions by Russ and PGI + they stopped developing MWO after those playerbase just plummuted.
What crying? Most people that cry about why group queue died didn't even play it.
There is no casual mode only quick play.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

What if I told you not all of the groups sync stuff? or bring meta builds. And game has built in Comms. "Old" team? I know plenty of old/experienced players who are total **** at this game.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

Yes Firestarter was MOST USED light mech in MWO championships 2021 semifinals. Very solid mech.

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

Casual? If you are referring to quick play again it works works well with groups and solos.
How many times did you count of your last months games that it was because of a group that it was total stomp?
Hasn't worked on what other games?

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

There is no group queue, Can't play it
There is no Casual mode, never was.
Only Quick play and Faction play. (and Comp queue for very limited time each Year)

[justcallme A S H]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Look, all I say is this: you wanted group mode, you got group mode, e.g. skirmish. Was it healthy? According to the crying on the forum not.

Casual was healthy. And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

I would strongly suggest you log onto Twitch and watch streamers play live. Watch the ones that are grouped.

What you will see is that by and large what you are claiming simply isn't happening and it sure as hell isn't happening in lower Tiers where you play. Sure there might be a small number of guys, high skill, high tier, highly organised, META builds etc but they are absolutely not the norm

You are grossly misrepresenting reality here.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 January 2022 - 02:46 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Look, all I say is this: you wanted group mode, you got group mode, e.g. skirmish. Was it healthy? According to the crying on the forum not.

Casual was healthy. And you can argue as much as you want: a pre-made with synced builds, meta builds, com and the willingness (and also the experience working as an "old" team) will always have a serious advantage.
Sure, some people want to play with friends but others also enjoy the advantage over others and their epeen stroking.

Take me, I play casual and use also my Huginn, Firestarter etc.

But again: the simple statement is that groups shouldn't be in casual - especially not of 4s. It hasn't worked in other games, and it doesn't work here

And pbiggz: if you want to play grouped...then play a group mode. Remember: this was casual mode which was invented exactly for what it was. They crying of people like you brought groups into this mode, not vice versa. Therefore get off your high horse please.

thats is the active Part in all PvP Games without the chance here for a Lucky One hit Kill like CoD or Battlefield...im thinking you better plays with Bots against Bots thats never learned or adapt Mechanics and Tactics.Why you not build a own Group an dominates the MWO Battlefield ? or you must have more a a Handfull Guys to fight against Guys with longer Experience and better Tacical Awarness?

The Great Time of Groups here in mWO is long gone, only a Handfull old Veterans (im the Last from the Clan Dark Runes here) now here an plays and the most with long Times paused. so its the Casuals thats dominated the games and yes ...MWO is harder to play as a Smartphone Mobile Game

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 11 January 2022 - 03:17 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 11 January 2022 - 03:20 AM, said:

[redacted]

Shill [shil] noun

1 - a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.


2 - a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

So let's see here. Nobody in this discussion is getting paid for it, which means profit and self interest are out. I don't know any of these people personally, so friendship isn't it. And loyalty? To a game company who for nine years has refused to make a Crusader mech for me to love? No.

That leaves only the highest of motivations. Someone is wrong on the internet.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 11 January 2022 - 07:23 AM.
quote clean-up

[Der Geisterbaer]

ScrapIron Prime said:

So let's see here. Nobody in this discussion is getting paid for it, which means profit and self interest are out.

As much as it pains me to object but the underlined part isn't "out". Nomad's premise usually revolves around the stipulated self interest of players who play [insert "OP" mech weight class, weapon system, alt accounts to seal club, etc.] and "them" obviously" not wanting to change anything that would make [insert "OP" mech weight class, weapon system, alt accounts to seal club, etc.] less fun for "them".

Now "obviously" anyone who does not subscribe to Nomad's personal ideas of balance and voices objections to his claims here in the forums must be one of "them" players and therefore is acting out of pure self interest (of not losing "their" preferred gameplay) ... and as such constantly "shills" for maintaing the general status quo.

Anyhow, I can certainly appreciate the irony of him calling others "shills" over their (alleged) preferences (which are ofc driven by self interest) while he is constantly trying to "shill" for his preferences (which are equally driven by self interest).

[MW Waldorf Statler]

remove the "im will Play a Single Player Game without others Players better as Bots" from the Game ,thats unwilling to learn adapt and play with other players in a Team ...goes and plays Coop Games, Pve games or Singleplayers .You will not play with other guys, so not play MWO...or we have a Solaris Mode without teams !
You will win with a Raven ...play MW5..or better not ,the Bots all Seal Clubbers

Im will play Baseball, and will win ,and will play with my own Rules thats im can win, and all other players thats will win stupid ...

Personality disorders can sometimes be treated...only not in this Forum

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 11 January 2022 - 09:46 PM.

[Axeman1]

It's funny watching the people who drop in groups defending group queuing while not realizing it's detrimental to the game, fairness, balance, and player count. Racing to your own destruction ^__^

[GARION26]

Axeman1, on 12 January 2022 - 03:26 AM, said:

It's funny watching the people who drop in groups defending group queuing while not realizing it's detrimental to the game, fairness, balance, and player count. Racing to your own destruction ^__^

Buddy less then 1% of my games are in a group (and when I do group it’s with my 11 year old son)
Since the addition of group que around season 45 MWO has reversed its trend of declining active and new players.
The objective data is the exact opposite of your assertion. Someone is failing to realize something . . .

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

[Horseman]

GARION26, on 12 January 2022 - 03:55 AM, said:

Buddy less then 1% of my games are in a group

Same with me XD

[Weeny Machine]

Funny, that some people have their pants in a know when you have a different opinion about mixing premades and pugs. Remembers me of good old WoW when the battlegrounds were introduced. I don't even need to discuss it any further...I just say that much: premades always claimed that they want a challenge or "only want to play with a friends". And when they got their own queue...that queue was basically dead.

Been there, done that. See you

[ScrapIron Prime]

Weeny Machine, on 12 January 2022 - 06:16 AM, said:

I just say that much: premades always claimed that they want a challenge or "only want to play with a friends". And when they got their own queue...that queue was basically dead.

Causation does not equal causality. All games lose population as they age. And when you drop below a certain threshold, splitting the players into multiple piles is no longer practical. This isn't rocket science.

[Bud Crue]

Axeman1, on 12 January 2022 - 03:26 AM, said:

It's funny watching the people who drop in groups defending group queuing while not realizing it's detrimental to the game, fairness, balance, and player count. Racing to your own destruction ^__^

I play 95% in a group or groups of 3-6 players most nights and have only had above a 1.0 w/l ratio in four of the last 12 months. How are me and mine detrimentally affecting your game play?

Now If you're implying that those of us who drop as a group are often detrimental to our team yeah, you might have a legit point. But this idea that groups are dominating and driving away solo players is delusion. There are literally maybe 3 groups dropping regularly that can be said to more often than not determine the outcome of a match, but even that isn't saying much. The vast majority of those of us dropping in groups have no more impact than any other average solo player and my stats show that.

Edited by Bud Crue, 12 January 2022 - 07:02 AM.