186 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Yes... let's half the community, ostracize the strongest advocates and decimate the wait-time ques for both the QP and groups all in the name of "my ability to criticize groups is stronger than my personal self-awareness".

Even if you're not in a group you can benefit from listening to their coms (If they are on Discord you just watch their movements)...

I'm a 100% solo player and I am happy to see groups because, by in large I know at least 1/4th of the team is coordinated and I don't have to just play "follow the herd while they nascar"...

Asking for groups to be kicked from QP is the highest form of ignorance and arrogance as far as knowing their impact on que, available player pool and wait-time.

[GoodTry]

Keep in mind that low-skill groups are just as bad for team balance as high-skill groups, the effect is just not as obvious.

[1453 R]

Take groups out of queue and ban everyone who has friends from MWO forever, the way people like Overly Long Name OP want?

They'll still suck at MWO, lose 12-5 and fish for some random reason that game was a godawful failure of the system instead of just a normal result of a one-life-to-live system with wide-open player customization, and come onto the forums to complain about how some bit of the MWO game code is denying them their true destiny as a Peerless Hero of the Inner Sphere.

There'll just be a lot less folk to listen to their pointless carping, because everybody who has friends will have been banned from MWO for the unforgiveable crime of having friends. Including, I believe, most of the remaining forum userbase.

Sounds like a great time. Let's do it*.






*let's actually not do it, if we possibly can.

[RAM]

Nomad Tech, on 03 January 2022 - 06:11 PM, said:

Groups ruin teams more than it doesn't..

Thats why you have teamed quick play and solo quick play the fact people left was because of the bias matchmaker and the fact griefers couldn't do what they loved..

It is a TEAM game - supposedly the thinking man's shooter. Advocating for a team game without teams makes one wonder what you are playing it...

There was no matchmaker back when the queues split (for balance; obviously matches were made)

pbiggz, on 03 January 2022 - 05:59 PM, said:

Are you not understanding what he said? Because you're talking like you disagree with him, and then kind of agreeing with him.

We had a consolidated queue for a long time, then it got split off because people whined, but we had enough population to take the hit and faction play to cushion things even further, then the population dropped off, faction play disappeared, and the queues *had* to be consolidated again.

Pretty much everyone here who is honest agrees that discouraging/banning group play in a team based multiplayer game is a bizarre and self-defeating thing to do.

It is you (and he) who did not understand.

I am saying that the original split was what 'killed' the game. We had the player count back then and the numbers showed it. It was so bad they removed the player count. This is correct.

What he seems to be saying is that current player population is too low to support separate queues; that is also correct, but has nothing to do with my point to which he replied.

Given his weird reply I reiterated my initial point.

Regardless, there are plenty in this thread that are arguing for that very thing: the banning of groups...


RAM
ELH

[ScrapIron Prime]

RAM, on 04 January 2022 - 07:43 AM, said:

It is a TEAM game - supposedly the thinking man's shooter. Advocating for a team game without teams makes one wonder what you are playing it...

See, that's the thing I really don't get. Folks here are advocating for logging in with a random 11 other people and play against 12 random other people, but DON'T want anyone to coordinate or communicate or play with friends.

At that point, why not just play MechWarrior 5 ? No teams and you can win every time and if you DO play with friends then they're all on your team!

[Vercors]

If a separate queue for group and solo players is not an option, perhaps adding respawn (with the same mech and for a limited number of times (or not)) in the QP would come close to a solution.
I think having to wait to start a match only to get destroyed quickly for some players leads to frustration. Giving them the opportunity to do better (by getting to know the group in front of them) may reduce that. I imagine it will also reduce the rotation problem during fights.
Respawn already exists in FP, and in a more complicated way than what I propose here. I don't know if it would be difficult to implement now in the game.

[pbiggz]

Vercors, on 04 January 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

If a separate queue for group and solo players is not an option, perhaps adding respawn (with the same mech and for a limited number of times (or not)) in the QP would come close to a solution.
I think having to wait to start a match only to get destroyed quickly for some players leads to frustration. Giving them the opportunity to do better (by getting to know the group in front of them) may reduce that. I imagine it will also reduce the rotation problem during fights.
Respawn already exists in FP, and in a more complicated way than what I propose here. I don't know if it would be difficult to implement now in the game.

I've advocated for that for a long time but frankly it is a different conversation.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Vercors, on 04 January 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

If a separate queue for group and solo players is not an option, perhaps adding respawn (with the same mech and for a limited number of times (or not)) in the QP would come close to a solution.
I think having to wait to start a match only to get destroyed quickly for some players leads to frustration. Giving them the opportunity to do better (by getting to know the group in front of them) may reduce that. I imagine it will also reduce the rotation problem during fights.
Respawn already exists in FP, and in a more complicated way than what I propose here. I don't know if it would be difficult to implement now in the game.

And if implemented, it will only be a matter of time before spawn camping becomes the new unfair thing that leads to frustration. Trade one problem for another, really.

[pbiggz]

ScrapIron Prime, on 04 January 2022 - 09:00 AM, said:

And if implemented, it will only be a matter of time before spawn camping becomes the new unfair thing that leads to frustration. Trade one problem for another, really.

Again, not the discussion here. I have thoughts on it, im not sharing them here. Respawns are a potential solution to a different problem. They have little to do with the perceived grievances solo players have with group players.

Its like saying doing the breaks on my car will fix the furnace in my house. Not really relevant.

Edited by pbiggz, 04 January 2022 - 09:08 AM.

[Verilligo]

Hobbles v, on 03 January 2022 - 10:05 AM, said:

Well D A T A and Jgx quite openly use their teams as fodder to buffer them. They dont play qp to win, they play to farm.

They are Excellent pilots in thier own right but among the absolute worst teammates to have outside of a comp environment.

Fundamentally incorrect. They play ONLY to win. There is not a match they participate in where winning is not their first, last, and only goal. To that end they will use whatever tactic they deem necessary to succeed. Peeling back or pulling over to a location where they feel they can successfully win the match is one of those tactics and farming is incidental to carrying out their goal. Teams will naturally feed themselves to one another as the match goes on, it's not a sin.

The problem is when you have no one on the other side that can match up well with them. That, and I wish they would openly communicate their game plan more often, rather than staying on their own private comms. I wouldn't even call that a failing, just something that would help out.

[LordNothing]

ThreeStooges, on 02 January 2022 - 08:33 AM, said:

I've seen 4 mans ruin qp games having droped with lots. When I see certain unit tags with 3-4 members I know if the match is going to be lost or won before the load countdown even finishes. Plenty of 3-4mans just yolo to their death making the match 0-4 while the other 8 have to either get stomped yet again or really get their s--- togeather in a hurry and play as a team to have any chance at all to win.

I've also had the reverse happen where one of the 4 uses voip/team chat to take charge and lead the 8 solos to a win but this happens far less and very few in-between in qp. If anyone really wants to play as a team and be in a team they will be 1. in a unit 2.playing fraction not qp. 3. both 1 and 2.

ive seen as lot of 4 mans just do their own thing, usually some uncommon strategy that they do not communicate with others. its not unusual to see 4 mechs all camping at the maps edge. its when they team up to farm kills or damage, usually at the rest of the team's expense with no concern for actually winning the match. when i gauge a player's performance, i dont look at kills, i look at wins. when kdr is high and wlr is low, kdr farmers show up like a sore thumb.

i dont think groups should be removed for this however, as you do sometimes get a group that is in it for the win and are willing to work with the other 8 players. they employ winning strategies like wolfpacking, effective camping, or coordinated lerming.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 January 2022 - 10:03 AM.

[1453 R]

I know that when my friends and I drop together, often we'll do pretty much anything we can to not play the same stupid, pointless, annoying, overplayed, absolutely unworthy of anybody's time "Bumrush the middle and die like a moron" strategy that ALL quickplay regulars adopt as their single, sole, and only gameplan. Sometimes we'll call out an alternate approach at match start, but more often we'll just do whatever we're gonna do because it's usually the next best thing to absolutely impossible to convince Puglandians to do anything but the Moron's Bumrush.

Despite my vitriol I'm actually more tolerant of the Moron's Bumrush than most of my friends; I understand that the team being unsalvageable idiots together is generally a better chance of victory than a bunch of smart guys being smart piecemeal. But it still galls me every time I see people make the same ******* mistakes every single game, and sometimes that means TKK- is going to go and try something else.

We're not throwing. We're not farming. We're just sick unto death of participating in the Moron's Bumrush and leaving who wins up to a coin flip of attrition, so sometimes we take more specialized designs and try to do something else. We're still trying to win. We're just doing it differently than the brainless wildebeests that can't understand why they keep losing matches even though the last time they changed their strategy and general approach to the game was sometime in 2015.

[Eatit]

OP is correct... groups do not belong in solo quick play. Group players had 3 ques before. FP, Souting, and Group Que. All of those game modes died.

Solo QP remained. The group players whined that their ques died and they couldn't play with their friends. PGI caved and allowed them in to QP. The implementation was bad <shocking>. Now solo players have no que to call their own. Allowing solo players to opt into group que may have been better, who knows.

The point is group play didn't last and all group ques died. Solo play did last and it's only que lived.

PGI and group player logic > Group play is the best even though all our ques died. Let's take away the last bastion of solo play and add groups that should make it better.

[pbiggz]

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

Group players had 3 ques before. FP, Souting, and Group Que. All of those game modes died.

Conveniently, you leave out why they died. Its not a special property of groups, its dwindling population and changes PGI made.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

Solo QP remained. The group players whined that their ques died and they couldn't play with their friends. PGI caved and allowed them in to QP.

Im allowed to play with my friends. Your smug sense of superiority for playing alone as though it makes you virtuous, isn't, and shouldn't be anyone's priority.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

The implementation was bad <shocking>.

Subjective at best, and unfounded. How was it bad? Will you explain?

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

Now solo players have no que to call their own. Allowing solo players to opt into group que may have been better, who knows.

You don't own the game. The queue isn't yours. Stuff the entitlement.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

The point is group play didn't last and all group ques died. Solo play did last and it's only que lived.

This isn't a point, its an observation, one you evidently don't understand.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 10:23 AM, said:

PGI and group player logic > Group play is the best even though all our ques died. Let's take away the last bastion of solo play and add groups that should make it better.

People are allowed to play with their friends. It statistically has no real impact on win loss rates. You aren't losing out by having them in the queue, you just think you are. That's a you problem.

So tell me why soft banning all the most active players in the game because you think it will make you win more is a good idea when this game barely scratches 1000 players at peak hours and hovers at a fraction of that during off hours.

Edited by pbiggz, 04 January 2022 - 10:49 AM.

[Eatit]

pbiggz, on 04 January 2022 - 10:48 AM, said:

Conveniently, you leave out why they died. Its not a special property of groups, its dwindling population and changes PGI made.



Im allowed to play with my friends. Your smug sense of superiority for playing alone as though it makes you virtuous, isn't, and shouldn't be anyone's priority.




Subjective at best, and unfounded. How was it bad? Will you explain?



You don't own the game. The queue isn't yours. Stuff the entitlement.



This isn't a point, its an observation, one you evidently don't understand.



People are allowed to play with their friends. It statistically has no real impact on win loss rates. You aren't losing out by having them in the queue, you just think you are. That's a you problem.

So tell me why soft banning all the most active players in the game because you think it will make you win more is a good idea when this game barely scratches 1000 players at peak hours and hovers at a fraction of that during off hours.

So many things to reply to.

Fact: All group ques died
Fact: The only solo que lived

I don't need the why for these to be facts. Neither you nor I know all the reasons they died. We probably know some of the reasons but listing them won't change the facts.

Your smug sense of entitlement is what is on display. Solo's shouldn't have a que is what you are saying because your que died they should be forced into group. You get what you want at the expense of what others want. I didn't say group que should be turned into solo for my pleasure. You said solo should be turned into group for yours. Who's entitled?

Groups added without skill as a consideration is one way it was implemented bad. Tier 1 joins tier 5 friend and gets put in tier 5 matches. I'm sure there are other reasons.

I didn't claim to own the game. I'm not sure what I said that was entitled. I've already pointed out the opposite of that is true with your statements. Feel free to continue digging yourself in deeper.

I don't even play anymore. I don't need to win. I was soft banned when groups were added to solo. The game has fewer players and I'm sure in no small part to groups being added to solo que. The evidence is in favor of my argument whether you like it or not.

All Group Ques Died
The one and only solo que lived, that was until groups were added

You do the math.

[pbiggz]

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

So many things to reply to.

Fact: All group ques died
Fact: The only solo que lived

Yes these are facts. You have observed these things. Many other people have too.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't need the why for these to be facts.

Yes you do. You are making an argument. You need proof to back your claim. Saying you don't need the why is saying you don't need proof. That's not how making arguments works.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Neither you nor I know all the reasons they died. We probably know some of the reasons but listing them won't change the facts.

We do know the reasons. Dwindling total population left the group queue basically empty. Changes to faction play, including the removal of some rewards, granular control over matches and territory, and the consolidation of all factions into clan and IS basically relegated faction play to history. We know these things. Saying we don't know, either means you don't know, or you do know and you're lying. Refusing to name these well known causes for the demise of these queues betrays that they don't play into your narrative simply. You'd rather not name them because they don't prove your point.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Your smug sense of entitlement is what is on display. Solo's shouldn't have a que is what you are saying because your que died they should be forced into group. You get what you want at the expense of what others want. I didn't say group que should be turned into solo for my pleasure. You said solo should be turned into group for yours. Who's entitled?

You are acting entitled, for the reason stated before that you think groups ought to be removed, which, in practice, amounts to a soft ban on players who dont play the game the way you like. There is nowhere else for group players to go, and with fewer than 1000 players at peak hours, a good chunk of which are group players, removing them from the queue is tantamount to the game committing suicide.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Groups added without skill as a consideration is one way it was implemented bad. Tier 1 joins tier 5 friend and gets put in tier 5 matches. I'm sure there are other reasons.

We do not have access to PGI numbers, but what we do have access to suggests that this is neither common, nor a major influence on the outcome of matches, and that in fact the opposite is also true, and just as many groups drag teams down as they do push teams up, if they do so at all. This point is little more than a bogeyman for you and yours to point and scream at.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I didn't claim to own the game. I'm not sure what I said that was entitled. I've already pointed out the opposite of that is true with your statements. Feel free to continue digging yourself in deeper.

You don't have to say something verbatim to imply it. You dont like how some people play the game. You want them removed. That implies entitlement. Balanced people don't ask for these things because they're unreasonable. If you're here making these claims its because you think you'll be taken seriously.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't even play anymore. I don't need to win. I was soft banned when groups were added to solo. The game has fewer players and I'm sure in no small part to groups being added to solo que. The evidence is in favor of my argument whether you like it or not.

The game was dead. From 2018 to the beginning of 2020 it was in maintenance mode, no balance changes, no new maps, very low population. It came back. For free to play titles like this, that's nothing short of a miracle. This doesn't happen to most games. One of the reasons it came back was consolidating the queues so people could actually play, another reason is handing off of balance decisions to the cauldron. Sweeping changes to queue functionality when the population is this delicate are risky at best, and stupid at worst.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

All Group Ques Died
The one and only solo que lived, that was until groups were added

You do the math.

Correlation isn't causation. You can point to this as much as you like, but you either don't understand what it means or you're lying.

[Eatit]

@PBiggz

I guess we choose to disagree. I have stated my point and in my opinion it is valid. Nothing you said changed my mind. I'm sure you feel the same. Thank you for your time.

[1453 R]

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

So many things to reply to.

Yes. So many things, indeed.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Fact: All group ques died
Fact: The only solo que lived

And as Biggz said, that had nothing to do with any sort of inherent bias, the way you keep insinuating, but rather was a result of declining player population. Note: the Solaris queue also died, and Solaris was very nearly strictly one-on-one, solo duels only.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't need the why for these to be facts. Neither you nor I know all the reasons they died. We probably know some of the reasons but listing them won't change the facts.

If you don't know the facts, then stop presuming facts where you openly admit you have none and insinuating that group queue died because groups are bad. They merged the queues because of declining player population. They said so themselves, and literally everybody who knows anything about how online games works believes them. Anything else is just bad-faith rumormongering intended to push an agenda and we all know it, so stop it.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Your smug sense of entitlement is what is on display. Solo's shouldn't have a que is what you are saying because your que died they should be forced into group. You get what you want at the expense of what others want. I didn't say group que should be turned into solo for my pleasure. You said solo should be turned into group for yours. Who's entitled?

Maybe - just maybe - there shouldn't be a divide between "Solos" and "groups", but instead simply a pool of MechWarrior Online players? Some of whom drop solo, some of whom drop in groups, and some of whom do both depending on the preferences of the evening? it's not my queue, your queue, Biggz' queue, or anybody else's queue. It's "The MWO Quick Play Queue", and you use it when you want to drop into a MWO Quick Play match. Stop trying to claim possession of something that was never yours to begin with.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Groups added without skill as a consideration is one way it was implemented bad. Tier 1 joins tier 5 friend and gets put in tier 5 matches. I'm sure there are other reasons.

See the little green shame symbol under my name? I'm in T4. My friends, as a general rule, are in T3, with one of them bouncing between T3 and T2 depending on how memey his 'Mech builds get. Just this last weekend we played a match in HPG against D A T A and two other members of the 1st Jaguar Guards, i.e. the MWO 2020 and 2021 championship competitive team. We got shat on like the toilet at a cheap Mexican restaurant, because Tier 0 Ultracomps matching up against a T4 harlot in a suboptimal Scorch build doesn't end well for the harlot.

Would you rather D A T A and his friends/team simply not be allowed to play? They deserve quick play matches too, and somebody's gotta drop on the red side whenever they queue up.

Declining. Player. Populations. MWO is below the threshold required for extremely tight skill balancing, and this game is extremely difficult to "skill balance" given how many X-factors there are in it and how widely player output can vary. Almost no other competitive game will allow you to cripple yourself as thoroughly as MWO will through improper 'Mechbay usage. How many times have you seen a 'Mech build and asked yourself "what the actual f@#$, dude?" Do you think that has no bearing on match experience? Do you think people exist at one, single skill level, perpetually, with no variance?

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I didn't claim to own the game. I'm not sure what I said that was entitled. I've already pointed out the opposite of that is true with your statements. Feel free to continue digging yourself in deeper.

Your entire position reeks of entitlement and the idea that you believe the game owes you something other than eleven teammates and twelve opponents whenever you click the "PLAY" button. You know what I've never seen? Pbiggz coming on the forums here to kvetch and ***** and complain whenever he inevitably gets blown up by a random JGx drop during slow days where the queues are low. Because he, like everyone else who knows how this stuff works, simply shrugs it off and queues up again.

Stop taking your losses personally. Stop blaming the game for them. Victory comes, victory goes - either accept the winds of fate and take solace in your wins when you get them, or start building a competitive team if you truly hate losing and want to try and learn to win as often as possible.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't even play anymore. I don't need to win. I was soft banned when groups were added to solo. The game has fewer players and I'm sure in no small part to groups being added to solo que. The evidence is in favor of my argument whether you like it or not.

Oh, cry me a river, Sobbs McGee. You were not, and never have been, "soft banned". You have always been just as able to play MWO as ever, you can always click the "PLAY" button the same as anybody else. You're just not willing to click "PLAY" unless the game promises to hand you an unbroken string of free wins to pad out your ego with, and frankly not a single solitary soul in MWO is obligated to make you feel better about yourself. You want to win more? Git Gudder.

Player populations are higher than they've been in the last three years and have been trending upwards for the last several months despite Soup Queue. You have no evidence. You barely have an argument.

Eatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

All Group Ques Died
The one and only solo que lived, that was until groups were added

You do the math.

Biggz? Do you happen to have any of the Cauldron's screengrabs/slides on player counts over the last few years? He did ask for math, after all, and I don't know off the top of my head where that information is kept.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 04 January 2022 - 11:40 AM, said:

Biggz? Do you happen to have any of the Cauldron's screengrabs/slides on player counts over the last few years? He did ask for math, after all, and I don't know off the top of my head where that information is kept.

those are available here btw:

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

player population is clearly on the up-and-up year-over-year.

[feeWAIVER]

Verilligo, on 04 January 2022 - 09:55 AM, said:

Fundamentally incorrect. They play ONLY to win. There is not a match they participate in where winning is not their first, last, and only goal. To that end they will use whatever tactic they deem necessary to succeed. Peeling back or pulling over to a location where they feel they can successfully win the match is one of those tactics and farming is incidental to carrying out their goal. Teams will naturally feed themselves to one another as the match goes on, it's not a sin.

The problem is when you have no one on the other side that can match up well with them. That, and I wish they would openly communicate their game plan more often, rather than staying on their own private comms. I wouldn't even call that a failing, just something that would help out.

lol