32 replies to this topic

[SharDar]

I took several months of from playing. Since I've returned, the game seems to be dominated by sniping. I don't remember it playing that way before. Am I misremembering? If not, what changed? Do people like the way the games are dominated by long range weapons now?

[Bassault]

Yeah, snipers are cancer, but you can avoid them if you have map knowledge. You can also crush them if you have a group to play with. One of you can be a countersniper or a medium/light harasser. Also, you could all just fight away from the sniper sightlines, forcing him to move elsewhere.

[justcallme A S H]

SharDar, on 08 January 2022 - 09:11 PM, said:

I took several months of from playing. Since I've returned, the game seems to be dominated by sniping. I don't remember it playing that way before. Am I misremembering? If not, what changed? Do people like the way the games are dominated by long range weapons now?

What do you define as dominated?
How many actual mechs are we honestly talking about per game?

Do you have video to record? 5 games in a row would be good to see how prolific this long range is, or, is not.

And how long is, several, month? If less than 6 months+ nothing has really changed.

[SharDar]

justcallme A S H, on 08 January 2022 - 10:00 PM, said:

What do you define as dominated?
How many actual mechs are we honestly talking about per game?

Do you have video to record? 5 games in a row would be good to see how prolific this long range is, or, is not.

And how long is, several, month? If less than 6 months+ nothing has really changed.

Yeah, I think it was about 6 months or more. I don't have specific data, just my perception, which seems to be echoed by others on the forums. I don't know how I would provide video evidence for this since it is just my point of view in one mech. It doesn't take all of the players on a team to be snipers for that to dominate the play. It seems that we spend the beginning of many matches cowering behind cover while huge waves of LRMs crash on anyone who peaks. I favor light and medium mechs, and seems like it has gotten much harder to close the distance to use short and medium ranged weapons.

Maybe this is just me working my way up into higher tiers. I'm on the cusp of tier 3. It definitely feels like the meta has shifted to long range weapons, though.

[justcallme A S H]

SharDar, on 08 January 2022 - 10:28 PM, said:

Yeah, I think it was about 6 months or more

Just checked for you. It's been a Oct 20 since you last played. The game has significantly changed in all areas since then.

SharDar, on 08 January 2022 - 10:28 PM, said:

which seems to be echoed by others on the forums.

And those select individuals, honestly, don't know the difference between Survival quirks & Weapon quirks and are constantly spreading misinformarion. Generally one should not take those individuals at all seriously in any commentary they make.

SharDar, on 08 January 2022 - 10:28 PM, said:

It doesn't take all of the players on a team to be snipers for that to dominate the play. It seems that we spend the beginning of many matches cowering behind cover while huge waves of LRMs crash on anyone who peaks. I favor light and medium mechs, and seems like it has gotten much harder to close the distance to use short and medium ranged weapons.

LRMs are completely unchanged. Probably one of the only weapon systems, cERPPC also is unchanged. If you are counting LRMs are more 'snipers' then your definition of sniper is not really inline with the majority. LRMs have always been more prolific in lower tiers so kinda hard to place that. Events also impact certain types of weapon useage don't forget. During a missile event every Mechdad and his Cat will be loading up on the tubes.

A sniper - by most users dedinitions - is using Gauss/ER Large/ERPPCs and to a lesser degree L-Gauss.

So ye it does take a reasonable number of players, in most matches, for long range to actually dominate and they need to generally be coordinating as well.

Saying "ranged is dominating" when there are 2 mechs on the enemy team is most of the time, inaccurate and just not a fair assessment. 1-2 mechs are simply are not enough on their own to dominate a game and more-often-than-not, especially in lower tiers, their impact on the game is going to be at best minimal as to be effective with long range (1000m+) you need above average aim.

eg. When brawling etc even with bad aim you are going to hit centre mass a lot more consistently than you won't.

SharDar, on 08 January 2022 - 10:28 PM, said:

Maybe this is just me working my way up into higher tiers. I'm on the cusp of tier 3. It definitely feels like the meta has shifted to long range weapons, though.

Yes long range weapons are more useful since the balance changes as they no longer hit like wet noodles.

Are they dominating? I'm not seeing it, even in Tier 1. I don't see many high tier players saying the same either.

[Weeny Machine]

@Ash: I think he means that because of the high amount or LRM users and the increased number of snipers it got really hard for meds and lights to close the distance.

[SharDar]

justcallme A S H, on 08 January 2022 - 11:18 PM, said:

Just checked for you. It's been a Oct 20 since you last played. The game has significantly changed in all areas since then.




And those select individuals, honestly, don't know the difference between Survival quirks & Weapon quirks and are constantly spreading misinformarion. Generally one should not take those individuals at all seriously in any commentary they make.




LRMs are completely unchanged. Probably one of the only weapon systems, cERPPC also is unchanged. If you are counting LRMs are more 'snipers' then your definition of sniper is not really inline with the majority. LRMs have always been more prolific in lower tiers so kinda hard to place that. Events also impact certain types of weapon useage don't forget. During a missile event every Mechdad and his Cat will be loading up on the tubes.

A sniper - by most users dedinitions - is using Gauss/ER Large/ERPPCs and to a lesser degree L-Gauss.

So ye it does take a reasonable number of players, in most matches, for long range to actually dominate and they need to generally be coordinating as well.

Saying "ranged is dominating" when there are 2 mechs on the enemy team is most of the time, inaccurate and just not a fair assessment. 1-2 mechs are simply are not enough on their own to dominate a game and more-often-than-not, especially in lower tiers, their impact on the game is going to be at best minimal as to be effective with long range (1000m+) you need above average aim.

eg. When brawling etc even with bad aim you are going to hit centre mass a lot more consistently than you won't.



Yes long range weapons are more useful since the balance changes as they no longer hit like wet noodles.

Are they dominating? I'm not seeing it, even in Tier 1. I don't see many high tier players saying the same either.

You're right. I probably shouldn't lump those in together. While the missiles may not have changed, it does feel like they are more prevalent. Maybe there are more assault mechs using them providing larger torrents? I don't know. I'll adapt. I was just curious.

[pbiggz]

It may be a perception thing. During the Lowreybalance era (late 2017 to early 2020, before the cauldron changes), weapons did so little damage that long range builds couldn't put enough damage down range really to even stop slow assault brawlers from closing the distance. Brawling wasn't just king, it was the only kid on the block.

The cauldron changes haven't really "unnerfed" sniping. Gauss Rifles still charge up, jump jets still shake, so the days of the poptart have not yet returned, and perhaps they never will, but, the cauldron buffs have loosened the punitive nerfs on snipers enough that you see them again.

Snipers, thus, aren't really overrepresented, as much as they're just represented, where they used to be virtually non-existent.

This has made a small handful of very vocal people very angry, because they liked their slow medium pulse and autocannon brawlers, and don't like that they need to now pay attention to where they are standing because someone might be able to kill them from outside their effective range.

I don't think thats exactly what's happening in this thread, more its just people noticing that snipers exist, when they didn't before. Keep in mind that of the snipers you see, the vast majority are bad at the game. They are in slow, delicate mechs with long recycle times on their weapons, and often even minimum ranges. If a medium gets up behind them, they're basically dead. If another sniper gets a firing solution on them, they're basically dead. They only thrive if you ignore them, so keep your head on a swivel, think critically, and you'll be fine.

[PurplePuke]

People tend to repeat what other people say because we're social primates. Once a perception gains steam, it just keeps going, evidence or not.

The "Sniper's are dominating" thing popped up a while back. I've been playing without break for years, and I just don't see what people are talking about.

I think since the reworking of HPG Manifold it's made it seem like snipers are dominating the game. But I just don't see it.

[Weeny Machine]

PurplePuke, on 09 January 2022 - 09:38 AM, said:

People tend to repeat what other people say because we're social primates. Once a perception gains steam, it just keeps going, evidence or not.

The "Sniper's are dominating" thing popped up a while back. I've been playing without break for years, and I just don't see what people are talking about.

I think since the reworking of HPG Manifold it's made it seem like snipers are dominating the game. But I just don't see it.

I haven't played for 2 years. When I came back two weeks ago I was like "wtf happened?!". Usually it was nascaring. Now assaults and heavies sit mostly (not always) more or less in one spot

Also, the numbers of lrm boats seems to have increased (ok, that could also be the tier - I was T1 before and then was the reset)

[ScrapIron Prime]

LRMs is totally the Tier you're in. T4 and T5 players will run LRM boats to get damage numbers up. But the more higher ranked players on the other team, the less effective lobbing long indirect fire shots becomes because those players have learned to mitigate with with cover and positioning. You'll see less LRM fire at higher tiers.

likewise, more skill with cover and positioning will overcome the fear that there might be long range weapons on the other team. Snipers have an easy time in T4 and T5 games (and with new maps in any Tier), but when their targets develop more situational awareness, it's less of a feast for them.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 09 January 2022 - 10:30 AM.

[RickySpanish]

With all weapons being a little more viable nowadays, it is no longer attractive to belt into close range with IS MPL / SRMs. Sniping isn't necessarily the meta now, it is just more difficult to do stupid sh** and get away with it. People notice snipers more often because they still do stuff like rotate into the enemy firing line. Many maps have loads of ways to get around that provides cover from snipers.

[YueFei]

Weeny Machine, on 09 January 2022 - 05:27 AM, said:

@Ash: I think he means that because of the high amount or LRM users and the increased number of snipers it got really hard for meds and lights to close the distance.

It works the opposite way, in my experience.

If the enemy team is filled with Assault brawlers, I'm kind of out-of-luck as a Medium brawler. Same range bracket, but they got waaaay more firepower and armor than me, and I'm not all that much faster than they are. If I run into an Atlas or any kind of brawly Assault, I break out into a cold sweat.

If the enemy team is filled with Assault snipers, then more often than not I will have a chance to close to brawling range where I have the advantage even though I'm in a Medium. It doesn't always work, of course, but as I've said in other threads, if I track my W/L ratios in different mechs, it is highest when I'm in a Medium brawler (~63+%). My W/L when playing midrange/snipe is significantly lower (~53%, barely above unity).

Brawling is feast or famine. It's mostly a psychological bias that makes people feel like snipers "dominate", because of selective memory and the emotional attachment to the loss of player agency. If I'm in a brawler and get sniped down (which happens, about ~37% of the time), it feels terrible because I barely got any chance to shoot back. It's a feeling of helplessness, of a loss of player agency... but it's just an illusion, because I did have choice and agency in terms of my pathing and exposures and building situational-awareness from teammates, I just made mistakes and chose wrong. On the flip-side, I don't as sharply remember those times (63% of the time) when I did manage to close the distance and started tearing enemy snipers apart and winning.

When I play midrange or snipe, even if I lose or get trucked by enemy brawlers, it doesn't feel quite as bad because I'll at least get to shoot a few times, giving me more of a sense of player agency, but it makes little difference in the end because I still got trucked.

And if I look objectively at the stats, I lose more often when playing midrange/snipe than when I play brawl.

[Meep Meep]

I've seen an uptick in sniping in a general sense since the cauldron changes as I do more of it myself but the majority of the matches still seem to be playing out with one blob chasing another. You just get more large laser and ppc spam eating away at them from the sides now. If anything sniping is harder now because the blob you are shooting at tends to also have long range weapons and they can simply shoot back.

[Weeny Machine]

YueFei, on 09 January 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

It works the opposite way, in my experience.

If the enemy team is filled with Assault brawlers, I'm kind of out-of-luck as a Medium brawler. Same range bracket, but they got waaaay more firepower and armor than me, and I'm not all that much faster than they are. If I run into an Atlas or any kind of brawly Assault, I break out into a cold sweat.

If the enemy team is filled with Assault snipers, then more often than not I will have a chance to close to brawling range where I have the advantage even though I'm in a Medium. It doesn't always work, of course, but as I've said in other threads, if I track my W/L ratios in different mechs, it is highest when I'm in a Medium brawler (~63+%). My W/L when playing midrange/snipe is significantly lower (~53%, barely above unity).

Brawling is feast or famine. It's mostly a psychological bias that makes people feel like snipers "dominate", because of selective memory and the emotional attachment to the loss of player agency. If I'm in a brawler and get sniped down (which happens, about ~37% of the time), it feels terrible because I barely got any chance to shoot back. It's a feeling of helplessness, of a loss of player agency... but it's just an illusion, because I did have choice and agency in terms of my pathing and exposures and building situational-awareness from teammates, I just made mistakes and chose wrong. On the flip-side, I don't as sharply remember those times (63% of the time) when I did manage to close the distance and started tearing enemy snipers apart and winning.

When I play midrange or snipe, even if I lose or get trucked by enemy brawlers, it doesn't feel quite as bad because I'll at least get to shoot a few times, giving me more of a sense of player agency, but it makes little difference in the end because I still got trucked.

And if I look objectively at the stats, I lose more often when playing midrange/snipe than when I play brawl.

My med brawlers do better than my lights. Simply because they require less uptime to take something down. My lights have real problems, though. Usually you have to wait for quite some time to be able to do something else you get targeted by 242425 lurms or the target gets help from sniper buddies.

Light brawling is in deep water imo. Most lights, especially 35t, are simply not agile enough and take too quickly too much damage

All in all I must say, compared to the gameplay I remember from 2 years ago, this camping and trading shots across half the map is really not engaging gameplay

Edited by Weeny Machine, 10 January 2022 - 02:38 AM.

[GoodTry]

Weeny Machine, on 10 January 2022 - 02:21 AM, said:

My med brawlers do better than my lights. Simply because they require less uptime to take something down. My lights have real problems, though. Usually you have to wait for quite some time to be able to do something else you get targeted by 242425 lurms or the target gets help from sniper buddies.

Yeah, it can be tough to play light brawlers in QP if you are the only one running one. But they are ridiculously potent when you get a light pack going. Even just 2 coordinated fast light brawlers can take almost any mech in the game down in seconds if their team doesn't support them (and I say that as someone who is usually in the light, not the target).

I'm surprised you complain about the enemy team supporting their teammates. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? What do you expect to happen?

I'm also surprised to hear that you think medium brawlers do better than lights. What builds do you mean, specifically? I've found light brawlers to be really good, including the SPL Firestarter, various Piranhas and Mist Lynxes, and even the recently-quirked HMG Javelin (14dps on a Javelin? Yes pls).

Mediums have many exceptional slower brawlers like Centurions with a big AC/UAC+snubs, HBK-IIC's with UAC20's, and clan SPL boats (soon to be nerfed, sadly). But other than things like the Black Lanner, they are mostly a different playstyle than the fast light brawlers, and similarly effective overall IMO.

Weeny Machine, on 10 January 2022 - 02:21 AM, said:

Light brawling is in deep water imo. Most lights, especially 35t, are simply not agile enough and take too quickly too much damage

I definitely disagree with that as to "most lights." There are some 35-tonners that don't make good brawlers. And the Jenners and Jenner-IIC's in particular have a number of builds that feel like they should be good brawlers but just aren't because of their hitboxes, mount locations, and size.

But keep in mind that the SPL Firestarter is a 35-ton brawler too, and arguably one of the best short-range lights in the game right now.

Edited by GoodTry, 10 January 2022 - 07:44 AM.

[Blood Rose]

Snipers are a problem at the moment. Whilst some platforms and weapons did need a buff, that combined with the reworking of many maps to be a snipers paradise (new Frozen city and its valley of death, HPG sniperfold, Caustic Valley, etc) has really let shorter range builds feel the sting.
If its any help, ive found that moving away from brawling and into medium range fire support and sniping has led to some improvements.

[Capt Deadpool]

A few tips for those struggling with snipers:

1. First, understand that snipers aren’t really dominating anything even if there are way more of them than there used to be due to weapon/map changes. The only time they really dominate is if there is a coordinated 3 or 4 man in max tonnage meta builds who know the optimal tactical positions to hold on each map AND effectively use comms/commands to coordinate their team into holding a position where they can provide cover. This happens rarely and there are only a couple groups that even do this regularly/effectively.

2. After you recognize the enemy strategy, use comms/commands yourself to get your team to hold a defensible position on the map that eliminates/mitigates the snipers’ sight lines and force an engagement location of your choosing, not theirs. Sometimes your team may nascar anyway, many times they won’t.

3. Play a speedy ecm/stealth light or medium either alone or with 1 or more players and eat the snipers from behind. At the very least, force the snipers to stay facing you instead of your team.

4. Grab a triple er-ppc veagle and play counter-sniper. The mobility and pop tart-ability of the veagle can EASILY suppress an entire group of snipers and keep them focused on you instead of your team by pelting them non-stop with with triple ppc blasts to the ct. They will be forced to focus you; that’s what you want. Just use cover appropriately and reposition after every shot. If you’re getting hit more than you are hitting them, you are doing it wrong.

There you go, no more sniper problems.

[Meep Meep]

Capt Deadpool, on 10 January 2022 - 01:24 PM, said:

A few tips for those struggling with snipers:

3. Play a speedy ecm/stealth light or medium

4. Grab a triple er-ppc veagle and play counter-sniper.

I do this with a 3 lppc spider 5v. About half the alpha but the rof lets you keep them pinned and heat is quite good so you can keep it up for a while.

[justcallme A S H]

Capt Deadpool, on 10 January 2022 - 01:24 PM, said:

Spoiler

A few tips for those struggling with snipers:

1. First, understand that snipers aren’t really dominating anything even if there are way more of them than there used to be due to weapon/map changes. The only time they really dominate is if there is a coordinated 3 or 4 man in max tonnage meta builds who know the optimal tactical positions to hold on each map AND effectively use comms/commands to coordinate their team into holding a position where they can provide cover. This happens rarely and there are only a couple groups that even do this regularly/effectively.

2. After you recognize the enemy strategy, use comms/commands yourself to get your team to hold a defensible position on the map that eliminates/mitigates the snipers’ sight lines and force an engagement location of your choosing, not theirs. Sometimes your team may nascar anyway, many times they won’t.

3. Play a speedy ecm/stealth light or medium either alone or with 1 or more players and eat the snipers from behind. At the very least, force the snipers to stay facing you instead of your team.

4. Grab a triple er-ppc veagle and play counter-sniper. The mobility and pop tart-ability of the veagle can EASILY suppress an entire group of snipers and keep them focused on you instead of your team by pelting them non-stop with with triple ppc blasts to the ct. They will be forced to focus you; that’s what you want. Just use cover appropriately and reposition after every shot. If you’re getting hit more than you are hitting them, you are doing it wrong.

There you go, no more sniper problems.

In addition to this if I am playing long range, or anything for that matter, the amount of people that I see blindly bumbling about across 1000m of open ground is hilarious if not sad.

If you are going to do that then of course anyone with ranged weapons is going ensure you have a hard time.

This comes back to low skill play in that so many believe MWO is all about "push push push". It isn't. Use your brain, don't go:

• Charging around corners if you don't know what is there
  
• Cresting over a hill blindly or walking into areas that are essentially killboxes/killbowls on maps.
  
• LOOK for long range fire. If you see it heading into an area you are going into perhaps stop and don't go there? You are just going to get farmed.

This is gonna sound harsh - most of the people complaining about snipefests or it's dominating the game are simply playing poorly. That's the crux of it. Play better, learn from your mistakes, it will be less of an issue for you.