21 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Why can't clan mechs have equal armor at leas for some

For example the atlas has a total of 160 total armor on the center torso. but the dire only has 142

the orion has 115 but the Orion IIC only has 104, I would've thought the IICS at least would have the same armor as their original designs

Clan has less mechs and therefore less choices by giving them less armor clans limited choices are a burden...

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 January 2022 - 09:02 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Cuz clan weapons and engines and equipment are superior to Inner Sphere stuff, so IS gets quirks to balance. Whether we agree with this or not, that's the why of it.

(For the record, I agree with it. )

[KaptinOrk]

KursedVixen, on 20 January 2022 - 08:57 AM, said:

Why can't clan mechs have equal armor at leas for some

For example the atlas has a total of 160 total armor on the center torso. but the dire only has 142

the orion has 115 but the Orion IIC only has 104, I would've thought the IICS at least would have the same armor as their original designs

Clan has less mechs and therefore less choices by giving them less armor clans limited choices are a burden...

Clan tech is generally superior to Inner Sphere tech, DHS are smaller, XL engines are better, FF armor takes up less space, weapons are lighter and often hit harder. There have to be some trade-offs for the sake of game balance.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 20 January 2022 - 09:08 AM.

[Kanil]

The Dire Wolf has less armor than the Atlas, because shockingly enough, the Dire Wolf is a better base chassis than the Atlas, so the Atlas gets some armor quirks to make it less terrible in comparison.

[KursedVixen]

Kanil, on 20 January 2022 - 11:55 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf has less armor than the Atlas, because shockingly enough, the Dire Wolf is a better base chassis than the Atlas, so the Atlas gets some armor quirks to make it less terrible in comparison.

i think the dire and atlas should share the same armor minus skill tree quirks

clans ATms have been nerfed and so have thier streaks and IS has light and heavy weapons like light guass light ppc and heavy guass and heavy ppc.. if they are going to follow lore as far as weapons I think mechs of equal tonnage should share the same armor pool.

what they should have done with ATMs is what MW4 mektek did


ATM- ER -long range and 120 meter minimium low daamge

ATM HE mid range high damage 3 per missile no minimium.... (make them like the clan version of MRms but heavier and less missiles)

And don't get me started On RACs

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 January 2022 - 12:22 PM.

[1453 R]

Lore is bad for balance. Clan gear in BattleTech canon is wildly overpowered - or Sphere gear is egregiously weak and anemic, depending on which side you fall on. Both sets of tech, in tabletop, have numbers and mechanics tuned for tabletop and which have proven, in virtually every MechWarrior game ever, to be an absolutely gobshyte awful fit for a real-time game. Hell, even the latest turn-based video game offering - HBS' BattleTech - adjusted the numbers pretty heavily.

The Atlas in MWO has more armor than a Dire Whale because the Dire Whale has a good three times the killing power of any Atlas on the field. Without melee and with only base specs, no quirks of any kind? The Atlas is drastically inferior to the Dire Whale. Hell, the Atlas is inferior to about a third of the Sphere's assault offerings, what with having a mess of mixed hardpoints slung firmly in its outsized beer gut and being bigger than some small countries. Giving it unprecedented levels of armor is how the Cauldron has allowed it to feel like an Atlas - a colossal, unkillable engine of fear.

Same deal with Clan 'Mechs in general. They move faster, hit harder, and can pack more gear. The drawbacks are that they tend to be more fragile, generally run massively hot, and have fewer options for PPFLD spikes. Clans have better overall damage; the Sphere's damage is more focused and efficient. It's the tradeoff that's grown over the course of sevenish years of having the Clans in the game, and it's there for a number of very good reasons.

[Kanil]

KursedVixen, on 20 January 2022 - 12:12 PM, said:

... I think mechs of equal tonnage should share the same armor pool.

Alright, sure. All 100 tonners now only get the Kodiak 3's +7 torso armor, your Dire Wolf is now capped out at 131 CT armor. That's perfectly fair, I'm assuming you're in favor?

I mean sure, the Dire Whale basically has to expose it's entire body to shoot it's low slung arm guns, with the Kodiak only having to peek a little over the hill to fire off it's ballistics, but they're both 100 tons so it's only fair that it has 131 armor, yeah?

[Blood Rose]

Clan armour is weaker because it is. If you dont like it then go play some other game instead of trying to change this one.
In TT/lore it was because Clan weaponry was so damn good they didnt need to carry excess armour, it was easier and more efficient to just mow down the opponent at longer ranges than he could reply.

[justcallme A S H]

KursedVixen, on 20 January 2022 - 12:12 PM, said:

i think the dire and atlas should share the same armor minus skill tree quirks

The DWF can bring many more guns due to hardpoints, much longer ranges and higher DPS.
Where the Atlas is mostly a closer range mech and needs the extra armour at times to get into or create position.

So unfortunately, you're just wrong. Your views would considerably unbalance the game.

[pattonesque]

KursedVixen, on 20 January 2022 - 12:12 PM, said:

i think the dire and atlas should share the same armor minus skill tree quirks

clans ATms have been nerfed and so have thier streaks and IS has light and heavy weapons like light guass light ppc and heavy guass and heavy ppc.. if they are going to follow lore as far as weapons I think mechs of equal tonnage should share the same armor pool.

what they should have done with ATMs is what MW4 mektek did


ATM- ER -long range and 120 meter minimium low daamge

ATM HE mid range high damage 3 per missile no minimium.... (make them like the clan version of MRms but heavier and less missiles)

And don't get me started On RACs

why would you put ATMS and streaks on a Dire?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

@OP

dude, you're in this game since 2016 and play a lot (7200matches). so I gotta ask:
srsly? or just trolling? sorry if that sounds rude, but I can't explain that any other way.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 20 January 2022 - 02:34 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Because if they shared the same armors then no one would play inner sphere stuff because clans would be just better in every way.. they have better weapons already and vastly longer range.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 21 January 2022 - 12:38 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Nomad Tech, on 21 January 2022 - 12:38 AM, said:

Because if they shared the same armors then no one would play inner sphere stuff because clans would be just better in every way.. they have better weapons already and vastly longer range.

Can you please point out which comparable weapons across the tech have these vastly longer ranges?
Or is this just another one of your "I'm gonna make an outlandish statement" moments?

almost all Ballistics are the same.
ERPPC are the same
ERLs are quite similar (and IS mechs generally carry quirks).
SRMs are the same
LRMs are the same
Gauss is the same.


I mean I can keep going and I'll wait for you to pull out the inevitable cLPL vs IS LPL or cERML vs IS ERML and then Streaks (which are markedly different for a reason) - but then you're only really clutching at straws bringing up a handful.

The actual facts the two tech bases share mostly similar ranges with only a handful that are different. Yours statement is once again completely wrong and misinformed

I won't even get started on the "clans have better" weapons, I know you wont understand that discussion.

[Apteko]

Sorry for offtopic, but is Ash some kind of a local celebrity?
Just asking, since his portrait so far is not very pleasant and what I see above is just cheap manipulation attempt.

Edited by Apteko, 21 January 2022 - 02:26 AM.

[Curccu]

Apteko, on 21 January 2022 - 02:26 AM, said:

Sorry for offtopic, but is Ash some kind of a local celebrity?
Just asking, since his portrait so far is not very pleasant and what I see above is just cheap manipulation attempt.

ASH just usually replies to false claims pretty bluntly.
Which part of that is manipulating who and to believe/do what?

[Castigatus]

Apteko, on 21 January 2022 - 02:26 AM, said:

Sorry for offtopic, but is Ash some kind of a local celebrity?
Just asking, since his portrait so far is not very pleasant and what I see above is just cheap manipulation attempt.

Some context for that.

Firstly, Ash has always been pretty blunt about expressing their opinions especially when it comes to incorrect or misleading claims like the statement they were replying to.

Secondly, Nomad (Or Mechagnome or Samial, he changes his forum name fairly frequently) has a long history of making false or misleading statements then not backing them up with proof and Ash is usually the person who calls him out on it first.

I'd also love to know what made you think that what Ash said was an attempt to manipulate someone because I don't see that at all.

[Apteko]

> Which part of that is manipulating

"I mean I can keep going and I'll wait for you to pull out... ...but then you're only really clutching at straws bringing up a handful."

This one is a long time classic. "I acknowledge that my position is far from perfect, so I will try to present every field where my opponent is correct as something miniscule and not even worth mentioning."
What Ash wrote can be rewritten as "yes, but you're exaggerating a lot: not every clan weapon is better and range difference is not vast at all" - but such phrasing doesn't make his opp look that stupid.

And "facts" in bold - BOLD, CARL - gave me a good laugh.

> Some context for that.

Thanks. I've expected some feud there and it explains quite a bit, yep.

Edited by Apteko, 21 January 2022 - 05:09 AM.

[Curccu]

Apteko, on 21 January 2022 - 04:51 AM, said:

> Which part of that is manipulating

"I mean I can keep going and I'll wait for you to pull out...but then you're only really clutching at straws bringing up a handful."

This one is a long time classic. "I acknowledge that my position is far from perfect, so I will try to present every field where my opponent is correct as something miniscule and not even worth mentioning."
What Ash wrote can be rewritten as "yes, but you're exaggerating a lot: not every clan weapon is better and range difference is not vast at all" - but such phrasing doesn't make his opp look stupid.

And "facts" in bold - BOLD, CARL - gave me a good laugh.

Dunno if about 5 of ~35 directly comparable weapons systems have better range (vastly or significantly) I wouldn't generalize it with sentence like

Quote

they have better weapons already and vastly longer range.

And like I said earlier Ash did reply with his blunt style but I do not see manipulation, maybe we define it differently.

[Tarl Cabot]

So the OP ignores/does not mention that the difference between the mechs are due to QUIRKs and not base armor. quirks are mentioned by others but for newer folks who may run across this thread, wonder what the OP is talking about.

Think of Quirks as buffs, defensive (armor or structural) and offensive (range, cooldown, velocity, etc). Quirks started to be added just prior to Clan mechs were to be released, and used added strengthen and prop up weaker mechs or to differentiate them from other variants.

Quirks are easier to take away, increase or decrease for each individual mech than changing the baseline component which would affect all mechs.

As for the OP reason for the thread? /shrugs maybe his baby direwolf was legged by an IS light... or looking at ways to strip more armor from his legs to free up tonnage and quirked armor points would allow for that...

[Brauer]

Apteko, on 21 January 2022 - 02:26 AM, said:

Sorry for offtopic, but is Ash some kind of a local celebrity?
Just asking, since his portrait so far is not very pleasant and what I see above is just cheap manipulation attempt.

Some players consistently spread misinformation. It gets tiresome correcting false claims particularly when some users make them so many times after being repeatedly corrected that it is hard to believe they are posting in good faith. In that context I think blunt rebuttals are quite fair.