112 replies to this topic

[Arnetheus]

MPhoenix, on 23 January 2022 - 05:42 PM, said:

One, maybe one person actually addresses the original concern...

Would you kindly paraphrase the "original concern" in this case?
It seems you disagree with the majority of the people replying with different kind of info, statistical or otherwise. So maybe there's something nobody else but you are seeing? If so, please inform everyone before this thread dies.
It's just that so far these 2 posts of yours added nothing.

Edited by Arnetheus, 24 January 2022 - 03:05 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Escef, on 23 January 2022 - 07:53 AM, said:

Then they should be emailing customer service. This is drama queen behavior. Hell, this person that "left" keeps coming back and making replies. I mean, where are all the buttholes that whine about "virtue signaling" when you need them?

That works about as much as posting on this forum does..

feeWAIVER, on 23 January 2022 - 11:02 AM, said:

Everyone keeps bringing up Jarls..
So we're back to Jarls being meaningful? Wow, that was a fast turn around.

Its only meaningful when it suits them.. lol

Edited by Nomad Tech, 24 January 2022 - 03:09 AM.

[Curccu]

Nomad Tech, on 24 January 2022 - 03:07 AM, said:

Its only meaningful when it suits them.. lol

Only meaningful if you understand what it tells and what it does not, a bit like math.

[LordNothing]

i can discuss anti-light tactics till im blue in the face, i seem to always break it down in the best way i know how in threads like this. but ive done it so many times i tend to leave out the niceties these days. the best way to learn to fight lights, is to play lights, and see what they are capable of and what their limits are. usually when i get an assault kill in a light, its because that assault pilot did something stupid (on my ever growing list of stupid things assault mechs do to turn them into squirrel food). follow the list of dos, and never want for a cookie again (or at least less frequently, you still sometimes meet your match).

Edited by LordNothing, 24 January 2022 - 05:27 AM.

[Adeptus Odren]

If the devs gave us the old ramming mechanic back, lights wouldn't be such a problem. Light running into an Atlas' leg = light on the ground = dead light.

[pbiggz]

MPhoenix, on 23 January 2022 - 11:01 PM, said:

Thank you for proving my point, this really did need a real time example of exactly what I was saying.

The sad part is from what I've read you hold some position with a community liaison group or something. That may not be the best description but it will suffice. And yet here you are once again responding with disdain and sarcasm.

Oh well, I guess everybody needs to feel important somewhere. I guess a video game forum is as good as anywhere.

You are not a victim because you don't want to shoot lights. It is a thing within your power. You decide to shoot the light. But you will lose a lot if you choose not to, as many people here seem determined to do, and for people who have a vested interest/responsibility to balance the game properly, balancing it so people who don't shoot lights feel good about themselves is not an objectively good way to balance a game. Cauldron people are basically doing heavy design work for free. That doesn't include holding peoples hands because the bad fish touched my direwolf inappropriately.

MPhoenix, on 23 January 2022 - 11:01 PM, said:

See, now THIS is comedy well done!

Just shoot the light dude.

[knight-of-ni]

MPhoenix, on 23 January 2022 - 05:42 PM, said:

Pathetic.

Not the topic, the responses.

In the short time I've been here I've seen this topic come up numerous times from numerous people and the threads are all the same.

Post: 'Hey, here's something that seems to be a problem/imbalance/whatever'.
Response by the same group of people: 'No it's not, you don't know what you're doing, you suck, LOL you must have just got 'X', play better, etc.'

You have completely misrepresented both the opening argument and the rebuttals from this thread.

These threads don't claim there seems to be problem. These threads treat the subject like a forgone conclusion, that there IS a problem, and it must be change now, or else.

The opening argument from these types of threads lack objectivity and rely primarily on one's subjective experience. It is commonly followed by a demand or complaint... change widget X or I quit, you suck, this is BS, I'm being victimized, etc.

When ASH, Excef, LordNothing, and other forum warriors respond, citing statistical data or present some other objective argument, it is responded to by ad hominem attacks, skepticism, and/or ignored.

The OP typically just digs in, rather than ask our forum warriors to explain their position better. They would, if they were asked without name calling. Try it. Seriously. The next time ASH makes a claim that the data doesn't agree with the claim, then ask him what he means by that. Ask him to cite the source of the data and detail how he arrived to that conclusion. He would explain it to you if it was done in a way that seem legitimate.



The irony with many of these kinds of threads is that one could take the opening argument, complaining about some feature in the game, replace it with another feature and the argument would work. Replace "light mechs", with assault mechs, stealth gauss mechs, etc, etc.

For example, I get irritated when a stealth gauss Thanatos gets a really good bead on me, and I spontaneously explode, not even knowing where the shot came from. It has happened to me more than once. Am I justified in coming to the forums and demanding this should not be so, based on my personal experience?

If the game was changed everytime someone made a subjective argument based on one's experience, I hope we can all agree this game would dive into complete chaos.



To bring this back to the original argument about OP light mechs, many of you know that your champion on this subject is DATA. First, let me point out that you don't see him here making the same kind of attacks and complaints. When he does post, he tells us his position without making ad hominem statements or insults.

I don't agree with him because an uber player destroying a team is one thing. Normal players regularly doing the same thing is another.

If you have not already, watch his Light Mechs OP videos in his youtube channel.


So where do we go from here?
If the reader seriously believes Light Mechs are OP, then one way to get some traction on this issue would be to convince DATA to train you in the ways of the force. Just like in the glory days of beta, band together and exploit said feature with OP light mechs. If regular Joe's like you and me are able to pilot light mechs and frequently destroy another team like DATA can do, then that would be a starting point for an actual argument.

This is something we should all agree on. If you think something is broken, then exploit it. Generate your own data. A lot of it, and have fun doing it.

And yes, if you could present sufficient evidence in this form, then the others in this thread would acknowledge it. Yes, it would take a lot. How do I know? Because their responses are based on the data.

[RickySpanish]

Yeah the glaring commonality I find with all these threads is that the OP always finds excuses for why they can't repeat similar results piloting a Light.

[CFC Conky]

knight-of-ni said:

1643035195[/url]' post='6443507']

…



To bring this back to the original argument about OP light mechs, many of you know that your champion on this subject is DATA.

If you have not already, watch his Light Mechs OP videos in his youtube channel.


...

As enjoyable/instructive DATA’s YT videos are to watch, we don’t know if they are cherry-picked out of dozens, or even hundreds of matches. He is very good though, so maybe he does this all the time.

I find live Twitch streams to be more useful as they are more ‘real time’ representations of match play.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 24 January 2022 - 09:47 AM.

[Hobbles v]

The "problem" with light is that the Meta has shifted longer range.

Long range weapons suck versus lights up close as they are either too hot (erppcs), long laser durations (erll), need constant rapid hits (ac2/lb2s) or explode when they strafe your back lightly (gauss rifles).

Lights are no problem if im running High calibur autocannons, lbx, and lasers that dont start with "er"

Nothing has changed for lights, Just the average loadouts of what they are fighting has.

[Meep Meep]

CFC Conky, on 24 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

As enjoyable/instructive DATA’s YT videos are to watch, we don’t know if they are cherry-picked out of dozens, or even hundreds of matches. He is very good though, so maybe he does this all the time.

I find live Twitch streams to be more useful as they are more ‘real time’ representations of match play.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Definitely cherry picked because the lolz kills where he facetanks assaults and heavies are due to their poor panicked aim and only splashing him with damage. He won't post the games where they simply core his ct by not freaking out and calmly aiming. It's much the same when I run backstabbing lights. One game you run amok and get 6 kmdd with barely a scratch and the next you get vaporized with no damage done coming around a corner because someone happened to be looking there.

[Battlemaster56]

Can I have your stuff?

[Escef]

Nomad Tech, on 24 January 2022 - 03:07 AM, said:

That works about as much as posting on this forum does..

Probably, but at least it doesn't make a huge mess on the forum.

[Michael Abt]

The title of this thread deceived me. First I thought someone finally addresses that lights really need a buff (or rescale), but it is just another one of those threads.

In the other thread #llightsOP1 I made the following posting:

Michael Abt, on 19 January 2022 - 01:31 PM, said:

As a dedicated light and medium player the current event offered the opportunity to follow the advice in this thread, and I tried out the other side of the fence. I bought a Stalker Misery, decked it out, and went working on the ballistic and energy challenges with it.


Light mechs*: 47 matches, WL 1.14, KD 1.65, AMS 235
*Oxide only. I have >3k matches in that mech, so I know my way around

Assault mechs*: 26 matches, WL 1.89, KD 2.20, AMS 284
*Misery only

(Edit: leaderboard data as of 19-01-22)

The majority of my matches in assaults is from FP, and a peek into my Jarl's list confirms that I have little experience with assault mechs.

https://leaderboard....h?u=michael+abt


My impression piloting the Misery literally was: "Woah! That is easy mode compared to my Oxide."

I was still in T3 when i posted the above stats. In the meantime I jumped into T2, thanks to Misery. Let's see my updated stats.


Light mechs*: 52 matches, WL 1.00, KD 1.50, AMS 233
*Oxide only. I have >3k matches in that mech, so I know my way around

Assault mechs*: 58 matches, WL 1.90, KD 1.82, AMS 283
*Misery only

(leaderboard snapshot taken on 24-01-22)



Small Q&A
Q: Since you are inexperienced with assaults, how often did a solo light kill you?
A: Zero times.

Q: Did you have any solo encounters?
A: Yes, I did. They either died, or were smart enough to disengage after my first hit.

Q: What about those wolf packs we read about so much? Did they kill you?
A: Yes, like three times or so. In all those cases the following conditions were met: It was two or more lights, I couldn't kill them fast enough, and most important, I was out of position which allowed these encounters to happen in the first place.

Q: Do you want to share any thoughts about piloting an assault mech, from a light pilot point of view?
A: Some behaviors i witnessed and didn't make sense to me as a light pilot now make sense. On the other hand I understand now that some of their odd behavior is the result of having no real experience in lights.



Some personal thoughts:

Spoiler

Despite being inexperienced with assaults I outperformed my beloved Oxide significantly. Based on that I deduct the following:

1. Even with very good damage for a light you may still end up with a down arrow. Sad low was close to 600 damage in my Oxide, being on the losing team. The main issue is that you are competing with heavies and assaults which may crank out those damage numbers with ease.

2. Lack of Consistency with lights. While I doubled my match count in the Misery, my performance pretty much stayed the same, despite being in T2 now. With my Oxide i had some serious yo-yo T3/T2 going on.

The main issue is that in my Oxide i am producing extreme results on both ends. I may be able to have high damage matches, and the next match i get oneshoted with sub 100 damage. Taking my first point into account it explains the yo-yo effect. Even with a good performance for a light I will only be in the middle of PSR change, but it is so easy to get wrecked early and take a major PSR hit. After those matches it is even noticable that the bar moved backwards, so big are those hits.

3. The higher you climb in tier the less likely it is to get good results consistantly with a light. The differences are pretty huge due to the changing enviroment. It explains why lower tier pilots are talking about OP lights while higher tier players have a different experience. The statistics are backing up the claim higher tiers make.

[JPeiper]

Ok, just quit out of playing because 1/2 mins into game (mining col) got hit twice by a pirahna in back that did 250 dam ,the 1st shot took out the entire LHS , the next the CT. Blood asp was dead from 2 alpha strikes. (the end game stats gave me that info)
I have said before that lights are OP, I stand by that .This game is not right if you can loose an assault mech to that damage that quickly.
I am presuming no cheating was involved but as I look at what you can arm these tiny little things with I have to wonder why I bother to play a heavy/assault with ghost heat/ limited weapon locations etc when I can play a light and arm it up with micro lasers and mg's so I can destroy anything over 75 T in 2 hits.
YueFei has a point about "crying on the forums" but I'm to old and ugly to cry, but I will call something out when it is not working-and MWO will die if good players are able to OP a class and dominate.
Just look at how most games run, we all group up as quick as possible and one deathball runs into another, I also think this causes the good old NASCAR as you can't chance getting separated. No innovetive tactics, no individual flanking play, just gets boring game after game.
Playing a heavy/assault against even a moderate player in a light is going to end badly ,we can't get the guns to track quickly enough, tiny hit boxes and what seems to be 50 tonnes of armour (ok , maybe not) plus lots of us can't even get the guns to depress or elevate enough when the jump jets kick in...
If people are quitting the game and the like of me are moaning about it on this forum rather than playing then there is a problem.
And maps... the "new" Hellbore springs makes the light problem worse , a player said he thought it was a copy of a quake deathmatch map from the 90's and I think he's right, after all how did we play quake...run like hell and circle strafe with a rocket launcher ,When the big guy starts getting close drop off a ledge or rocket jump over a hill---I give you Hellbour springs !!! Brilliant. Not.
The fixes for this have been noted before. If PIR do not fix this it's going to be 24 light mechs in a game- if that many are even going to play. onward to 90's quake . RIP MWO.

[Horseman]

JPeiper, on 24 January 2022 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ok, just quit out of playing because 1/2 mins into game (mining col) got hit twice by a pirahna in back that did 250 dam ,the 1st shot took out the entire LHS , the next the CT. Blood asp was dead from 2 alpha strikes. (the end game stats gave me that info)
I have said before that lights are OP, I stand by that .This game is not right if you can loose an assault mech to that damage that quickly.

One, there is no Piranha that does 125 damage per alpha.
Two, it would take rather less than that to pop your LT from behind and then your CT from behind.

Meep Meep, on 24 January 2022 - 09:59 AM, said:

Definitely cherry picked because the lolz kills where he facetanks assaults and heavies are due to their poor panicked aim and only splashing him with damage. He won't post the games where they simply core his ct by not freaking out and calmly aiming. It's much the same when I run backstabbing lights. One game you run amok and get 6 kmdd with barely a scratch and the next you get vaporized with no damage done coming around a corner because someone happened to be looking there.

Cherry picking is unavoidable when talking about uploading videos. However, considering his track record for light mechs this month...
Rank Pilot Name Total Wins Total Losses W/L Ratio Total Kills Total Deaths K/D Ratio Games Played Average Match Score
161 D A T A 50 24 2.08 119 47 2.53 74 338

Edited by Horseman, 24 January 2022 - 02:44 PM.

[FLG 01]

JPeiper, on 24 January 2022 - 02:25 PM, said:

If PIR do not fix this it's going to be 24 light mechs in a game

Unlikely. Lights have been the least played weight class forever and will remain the least played class. That is because incompetent people who think lights are op and try it usually die quickly and revert back to their old rides, while experienced players quickly discover the limitations of this class and usually play it only for a change of pace.

JPeiper, on 24 January 2022 - 02:25 PM, said:

And maps... the "new" Hellbore springs makes the light problem worse

I play mediums almost exclusively and the trick on this map is not weight, it is JJ.
...or an above average skill of positioning.


PS: my country has a long and proud military history.... and you chose that war criminal of a genocidal organization as your namesake? That is more than weird to me. If you ever want to take the name of an honourable German soldier, pm me. There are a lot of them.

[BLOODREDSIN]

The congratulation all go to you and the bunch. You made all this happen and more. Keep going, this cant end soon enough. I would like to add my vote for you guys to get 2 patches a month out and lets get this thing cooking.

[pattonesque]

BLOODREDSIN, on 24 January 2022 - 03:32 PM, said:

The congratulation all go to you and the bunch. You made all this happen and more. Keep going, this cant end soon enough. I would like to add my vote for you guys to get 2 patches a month out and lets get this thing cooking.

1. since cauldron patches, player population is higher than it's been at that point in the year in three years

2. just shoot the piranha

[BLOODREDSIN]

pattonesque, on 24 January 2022 - 03:44 PM, said:

1. since cauldron patches, player population is higher than it's been at that point in the year in three years

2. just shoot the piranha

1: Yea many had false hope in the beginning. Many still do. Most of us i think love mechwarrior and want to play it. If we wanted to play CoD or other fps shooters we would load those up. We came to play mechwarrior though and mechwarrior already had established rules and gameplay. Give it some more time. Just like i said, these guys do not have a clue and it continues to unfold each patch. Just cant help but incriminate themselves.

2: lol patton, come see me in your piranha. I promise i will shoot.