96 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2022 - 03:27 AM, said:

So you use mg in the tabletop all the time as an anti mech weapon?

Yes because there was nothing else than mechs in original tabletop.

PS. I haven't played BT much but when I have it has been mechs vs mechs always.

Edited by Curccu, 26 January 2022 - 03:59 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2022 - 03:27 AM, said:

So you use mg in the tabletop all the time as an anti mech weapon?

No one does because they are ineffective against Battlemechs, yes they damage very slowly, but no one would ever bother on the table top unless they had no choice..

[w0qj]

Even a mech throwing a fist in melee is better than MG

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:19 AM, said:

No one does because they are ineffective against Battlemechs, yes they damage very slowly, but no one would ever bother on the table top unless they had no choice..

[MW Waldorf Statler]

w0qj, on 26 January 2022 - 04:22 AM, said:

Even a mech throwing a fist in melee is better than MG

ánd when the Filigrane Fingers from a Shadowhawk (will a Pilot play Piano or make Chirurgical OPs? why a Walking Tank have full modelling hands) against a Massive Amor ...what breaks faster ? the hand or the Amor? why modern Tanks not use Demolition balls to destroy enemy Turrets in close Fights and spare ammunition ?

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 26 January 2022 - 05:41 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:19 AM, said:

No one does because they are ineffective against Battlemechs, yes they damage very slowly, but no one would ever bother on the table top unless they had no choice..

Let's better agree to disagree there because you certainly cannot speak on behalf of the entire BT player base with regards to what they would or wouldn't bother with in which particular game setting (single event game? Canon loadouts only? Randomized mechs according to faction? Campaign? etc.)

[ScrapIron Prime]

Curccu, on 26 January 2022 - 03:58 AM, said:

Yes because there was nothing else than mechs in original tabletop.

PS. I haven't played BT much but when I have it has been mechs vs mechs always.

One-off games are almost always mechs vs mechs, and in those you either use MG because you're using stock mechs only, or you swap them out for something else. In mech vs mech combat, MG have value only if your mech is designed to fight at point blank range, possibly with melee weapons. At longer ranges, MG have too high of hit numbers to score much damage and can score none at all outside a 3 hex range.

Its campaign settings where you want MG, because you could encounter infantry.

[MPhoenix]

Curccu, on 26 January 2022 - 02:16 AM, said:

and clearly you are not gun person or military and do not have lot of knowledge of weapons.

ROFLMAO!!! Perhaps I should introduce myself.

My name is [redacted], in most forums I'm known as Kestryll.

In July of 1984 I signed my name and swore my oath of enlistment in the U.S. Army.

I am an NRA Certified RSO and Instructor.

I currently sit on the Board of Directors of the California Rifle and Pistol Association, the NRA State Affiliate.

For the past 20 years I have been the Admin and Owner of the largest State firearms forum, Calguns.net, with over 350,000 members.

I am Vice President of our non-profit educational/training/2A political activism organization.

I have acted as a consulting expert on firearms and firearms law to a local District Attorney's office.

I have used and am conversant with weapons systems ranging from matchlocks and 1 lb brass cannons to sub-machine guns, machine guns and Browning .50 cal rifles and most everything in between.

I have assembled more AR15 style rifle than I can count, made AK47's from sheet metal and frame up modifications on Glock's, XD's, 1911's, Browning P35's and more.



You could say I have a passing familiarity with firearms...

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 27 January 2022 - 11:11 AM.
personal information removed

[Curccu]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

ROFLMAO!!! Perhaps I should introduce myself.

My name is [redacted], in most forums I'm known as Kestryll.

In July of 1984 I signed my name and swore my oath of enlistment in the U.S. Army.

I am an NRA Certified RSO and Instructor.

I currently sit on the Board of Directors of the California Rifle and Pistol Association, the NRA State Affiliate.

For the past 20 years I have been the Admin and Owner of the largest State firearms forum, Calguns.net, with over 350,000 members.

I am Vice President of our non-profit educational/training/2A political activism organization.

I have acted as a consulting expert on firearms and firearms law to a local District Attorney's office.

I have used and am conversant with weapons systems ranging from matchlocks and 1 lb brass cannons to sub-machine guns, machine guns and Browning .50 cal rifles and most everything in between.

I have assembled more AR15 style rifle than I can count, made AK47's from sheet metal and frame up modifications on Glock's, XD's, 1911's, Browning P35's and more.



You could say I have a passing familiarity with firearms...

Then I just find it weird why you wrote what that stuff because you should know it's not like that with that list ^.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 27 January 2022 - 11:11 AM.
quote clean-up

[ScrapIron Prime]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

You could say I have a passing familiarity with firearms...

Sure, but comparing small arms experience to a GAU-8 system would be like me comparing my knowledge of auto mechanics to the 1500 ton v-12 four-stroke diesel engines used on many marine vessels. Yes, it is an internal combustion unit, yes I understand the concept, no I've never rebuilt one.

Besides... shouldn't you be busy giving the side-eye to San Jose right about now?

[Der Geisterbaer]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

You could say I have a passing familiarity with firearms...

If you want to call that "a passing familiarity" - a.k.a. superficial knowlegde - then I won't bother guessing the degree of "passing familiarity" you have with the concepts like "abstraction" for purposes of "gameplay" in general or with regards to the demands of this particular game that is based on something that originally had to work as a science-fiction table top wargame with an equally fictional background.

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

So what exactly are they and what mechanism makes them immune to heat and jamming?

I distinctively remember already having answered those questions to you

• here
  
• here

Are you going to read and try to understand those answers - particularly the second one - this time around?

[YueFei]

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 January 2022 - 12:57 PM, said:

Besides... shouldn't you be busy giving the side-eye to San Jose right about now?

That should be a slam-dunk win in court against San Jose. It's the equivalent of a Voting Poll Tax, and there's plenty of precedent on that being a BIG no-no on an enumerated Right.

[MPhoenix]

Curccu, on 26 January 2022 - 12:44 PM, said:

Then I just find it weird why you wrote what that stuff because you should know it's not like that with that list ^.

I'm asking based on the info posted in previous threads not necessarily on the realities of modern firearms.
However with nothing else to use as a 'yardstick' I'm left to use modern projectile based weapons.

[MPhoenix]

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 January 2022 - 12:57 PM, said:

Sure, but comparing small arms experience to a GAU-8 system would be like me comparing my knowledge of auto mechanics to the 1500 ton v-12 four-stroke diesel engines used on many marine vessels. Yes, it is an internal combustion unit, yes I understand the concept, no I've never rebuilt one.

Besides... shouldn't you be busy giving the side-eye to San Jose right about now?

True, they are different. However I didn't say I wasn't familiar. Well, at least with a few cousins.

The minigun is funner than hell and there's just something fricken awesome about turning the crank on a brass framed Gatling Gun. Talk about jams!!

As I said, very small cousins but the mechanisms are similar.



Oh believe me, side eye doesn't describe it. We're talking the full on disapproving glare.

[YueFei]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:11 PM, said:

I'm asking based on the info posted in previous threads not necessarily on the realities of modern firearms.
However with nothing else to use as a 'yardstick' I'm left to use modern projectile based weapons.

I mean it can be fun to try to figure out "how?" a fictional setting's tech might work, either to help with suspension of disbelief or just because it's a fun thought exercise as a "here's how it might actually work". I get that, because I enjoy doing that kind of stuff, too.

Battletech as a whole is just waaay too wonky. Some of its idiosyncrasies can be "patched over", but mostly it's more fantastical than realistic or even self-consistent, and it's impossible to reconcile all of it into a coherent whole that still makes sense.

By way of comparison, The Expanse is more grounded and closer to hard sci-fi, but even there the authors and showrunners have openly said that it isn't hard sci-fi, it just maintains a veneer of it and only some elements truly adhere to hard sci-fi principles. Still, I and many others have found it fun to attempt to reconcile what we see in the show with how things should logically work... and if that fails, poke fun at the inconsistency/inaccuracy (e.g., sling-shotting around the Jovian moons, which should take months or years, but which takes place within days, an inaccuracy acknowledged by the show runners).

Edited by YueFei, 26 January 2022 - 02:26 PM.

[MPhoenix]

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 January 2022 - 01:16 PM, said:

If you want to call that "a passing familiarity" - a.k.a. superficial knowlegde - then I won't bother guessing the degree of "passing familiarity" you have with the concepts like "abstraction" for purposes of "gameplay" in general or with regards to the demands of this particular game that is based on something that originally had to work as a science-fiction table top wargame with an equally fictional background.



I distinctively remember already having answered those questions to you

• here
  
• here

Are you going to read and try to understand those answers - particularly the second one - this time around?

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 January 2022 - 01:16 PM, said:

If you want to call that "a passing familiarity" - a.k.a. superficial knowlegde - then I won't bother guessing the degree of "passing familiarity" you have with the concepts like "abstraction" for purposes of "gameplay" in general or with regards to the demands of this particular game that is based on something that originally had to work as a science-fiction table top wargame with an equally fictional background.



I distinctively remember already having answered those questions to you

• here
  
• here

Are you going to read and try to understand those answers - particularly the second one - this time around?

Are you going to grasp the concept behind casual thought games, extrapolation and just plain curiosity?
Actually it was your post that got me thinking and going down the rabbit trail of 'what if/howdoes?'.

I've been gaming since the old artillery game on a TRS-80, I'd love to find that simple little game redone as it was for Windows.
I've had fun with thought exercises about space ships, starfighters, transcontinental travelers, why does a monkey have it's own island and numerous other aspects of gaming.

We're not solving the world's problems or fixing the universe we're just having fun stretching our brains on theoretical topics.

YueFei, on 26 January 2022 - 01:46 PM, said:

That should be a slam-dunk win in court against San Jose. It's the equivalent of a Voting Poll Tax, and there's plenty of precedent on that being a BIG no-no on an enumerated Right.

You're right, this is applying a tax and financial requirement to an enumerated right. In a sane court that actually followed the Constitution and the law this should be dealt with by a simple motion for summary judgement.

But this is California where laws are fluid and the State Legislature states unequivocally 'We don't care about the Constitution, we do it anyway'.

[Kanil]

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:19 AM, said:

No one does because they are ineffective against Battlemechs, yes they damage very slowly, but no one would ever bother on the table top unless they had no choice..

MGs have an anti-'mech role in tabletop, given that they do not generate heat. Backstabbing light 'mechs whose purpose in life is to jump behind another 'mech and dump all it's small guns into the rear and follow up with a kick get good use out of MGs -- consider the FS9-M Firestarter as a prime example. It jumps 6 to directly behind an enemy 'mech, fires it's ML, two SL, and two MGs. You can't really swap the MGs for anything else and end up with more damage while still being heat neutral, and if you were really optimizing the thing, it'd have like 4 small lasers and 7 MGs.

It's a very niche use yes, and a lot of stock builds use MGs in really stupid ways, sure. But they have a role, and situations where they are actually useful against other 'mechs.

Oddly enough, their purpose in TT is really similar to their purpose in MWO: shoving your light 'mech right behind someone and blasting away at their rear torso armor. Huh.

Edited by Kanil, 26 January 2022 - 02:54 PM.

[LordNothing]

this opens the "you're doing gatling guns wrong" can of worms.

aside from the hand cranked civil war guns of olde, you have guns that are either gas powered, or electric/hydraulic powered. in all cases ammo feed is synchronized with the barrel rotation. so barrel spinning = ammo feeding. spin up accelerates quickly (especially in russian gas powered guns) and the delay between a trigger pull and unleashing hell is hardly perceptable. every time a barrel passes the firing position a round is fired. on the a-10 the gun is offset so the firing barrel position is dead on the center line of the aircraft. this also aligns the tangental velocity of the shell to the vertical axis so you dont get any lateral deviation from the barrels spinning. the russian designs are insane, gas powered guns are easy to get going, but they require a breaking system to stop (you cant just switch off the motor or close the valves), if this system fails, then the gun will likely melt and fail catastrophically.

in games none of this holds true, every game developer has this annoying tendency to make gatling guns a charging weapon, to spin up the barrel before feeding ammunition. the spin up time is significantly longer. even though charge mechanics make more sense with heavy front loaded weapons like gauss rifles than dps weapons like racs. that too is inaccurate, because real life weapon designers will design their weapon to fire immediately on the users demand.

the number of rounds put down range are greatly reduced, because games can only handle so many projectiles in a match at once. there is only so many computational resources available. this can slow down hit detection routines, or in multiplayer, consume all available bandwidth over the net. so you reduce the number of rounds (racs) or abstract it down to say hitscan (mgs), which makes it less realistic (if you wanted to simulate a ballistic trajectory for example). the damage is also nerfed a lot. a single gau-8 round is enough to take out a tank, but you send a hundred or two to make sure. rl gatling guns op.

i can accept some concessions for game play of course, it wouldnt be much of a game if you can tap your rac and instagib everything. but you can do it in a way that respects the weapon you are trying to represent. gatling guns are elegant in that they rarely jam, but they do overheat and you must wait for it to cool down, thats pretty much what racs do though they call it a jam instead of an overheat lockout. i figure the machine guns are connected to the mech's active cooling system, sort of like ciws on naval vessels. they can always pump seawater through their gun's cooling jacket to keep them cold and firing. the rac is simply too big for that to work.

[MPhoenix]

Quote

i figure the machine guns are connected to the mech's active cooling system, sort of like ciws on naval vessels. they can always pump seawater through their gun's cooling jacket to keep them cold and firing.

That's an interesting take, 'liquid' cooled although I suspect heat sinks aren't actually liquid cooling.
Sort of a giant Vickers or 1917.

Too bad because I'd really like to see the animation of an overheating MG and the pilot having to walk out on the shoulder of the mech to pee on the barrel to cool it quickly.

Edited by MPhoenix, 26 January 2022 - 07:28 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

If the US has given guns out to people that can't understand something as simple that lights are not OP...Well them...

[LordNothing]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 07:28 PM, said:

That's an interesting take, 'liquid' cooled although I suspect heat sinks aren't actually liquid cooling.
Sort of a giant Vickers or 1917.

Too bad because I'd really like to see the animation of an overheating MG and the pilot having to walk out on the shoulder of the mech to pee on the barrel to cool it quickly.

im not sure if mech heat sinks are supposed to be anything more fancy than a modern heat pump. there are also laser heat sinks, and laser cooling is actually a thing, but given the gross inefficiency of lasers i don't think it works out any better than a normal heat pump. but you can refrigerate anything, even a machine gun.