96 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Kanil, on 01 February 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

This idea that in TT MGs are useless against 'mechs and never an optimal choice is just flat out wrong. Are they niche? Yes, they're largely limited to light 'mechs that want to get behind other 'mechs to attack their weak rear armor. But in that niche, they are an entirely valid choice.

... which again, also describes MGs in MWO.

But you just said that mg in tt are really only optimal on backstabbing lights in very niche situations. That sounds pretty unoptimal for all the other mechs on the field yes? In mwo mg are useful on anything that can mount a couple of them and not sacrifice anything else if only for crit farming and if you can boat them they are good in many other situations past backstabbing. Crit sniping open components at ~500m with 4+ lmg is quite effective late game.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I never found that MGs or SLs were a good option for lights in tabletop. You have to get point blank with them to get a good hit number, and if you don’t win the initiative the following turn, or if someone manages to hit you from range for enough to force a pilot roll, you face that assault mech turning around the next turn and kicking you before you move away. That ends you.

I always got more mileage out of Medium lasers or ER smalls for light mechs. Less chance of instant death. Save the MGs for the specialist brawlers.

[Kanil]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 February 2022 - 04:17 PM, said:

I never found that MGs or SLs were a good option for lights in tabletop. You have to get point blank with them to get a good hit number, and if you don’t win the initiative the following turn, or if someone manages to hit you from range for enough to force a pilot roll, you face that assault mech turning around the next turn and kicking you before you move away. That ends you.

You just jump away next turn. +3 for jumping, +1 for your target to turn around, and +2 for range on anything other than LRMs/AC2s and now you're looking at 10s to hit. More realistically, that 'mech is probably going to move/shoot at one of your other 'mechs that isn't nearly as elusive, so ideally you land behind another target that's already moved and repeat the process. The real danger comes from missed kicks, or landing somewhere where your opponent can move something into close range with walking and blast away on 8s, or if they've got some <4 gunners on the field.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Kanil, on 01 February 2022 - 06:28 PM, said:

You just jump away next turn. +3 for jumping, +1 for your target to turn around, and +2 for range on anything other than LRMs/AC2s and now you're looking at 10s to hit. More realistically, that 'mech is probably going to move/shoot at one of your other 'mechs that isn't nearly as elusive, so ideally you land behind another target that's already moved and repeat the process. The real danger comes from missed kicks, or landing somewhere where your opponent can move something into close range with walking and blast away on 8s, or if they've got some <4 gunners on the field.

Speed kills, you have to use it. You need to generate a larger hit modifier for your opponent for your movement than firing penalty for your shooting, and always end in some cover. A light will always be +2 to +3 to shoot, plus however much for the opponent’s cover and movement (perhaps +3 total for a large target). At a range of 1 hex, your hit numbers with machine guns are a 9-10. Lousy.

But you get that at 3 hexes with mediums or SRMs, and with less attendant risk of being floor stomped by more than your intended target if you fail initiative. The light moves last the first turn, and first when retreating,

On the flip side, the big bad you jumped, if it gets to reply, +1 for movement, +2 for your cover, +3 or even 4 for your movement… 10 or 11. Too high to risk a kick… unless your light risked a kick and missed. If you fell… suddenly it’s a stomp fest.

not worth getting into that sort of range for those hit numbers.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 01 February 2022 - 01:24 PM, said:

But you just said that mg in tt are really only optimal on backstabbing lights in very niche situations. That sounds pretty unoptimal for all the other mechs on the field yes? In mwo mg are useful on anything that can mount a couple of them and not sacrifice anything else if only for crit farming and if you can boat them they are good in many other situations past backstabbing. Crit sniping open components at ~500m with 4+ lmg is quite effective late game.

Well debatable, I would never add MGs unless I can get at least 3 with rof quirks, or 4 without quirks and even those on lights usually. Bigger mechs usually can use the tonnage and slots to something that adds to their primary strength for them to be more deadly whole game.
So IMO MGs are niche for lights or some very specialized medium (One of my linebackers have 6xMPL and 4xMG but not sure if it is as good as pure 6MPL build, probably not.) builds as Kanil said earlier.

[caravann]

machinegun win in a long run against a light mech who overheat. this is why machineguns gains from support flamer boat.

It is a support role for flamers and backstabbers. and to have something going all the time.

the barrel doesn't melt because it only uses kinetic force and the bullet is not heated up by gas from the gunpowder.

UAC uses gunpowder in MWO and jams.

[Curccu]

caravann, on 02 February 2022 - 03:29 AM, said:

the barrel doesn't melt because it only uses kinetic force and the bullet is not heated up by gas from the gunpowder.

UAC uses gunpowder in MWO and jams.

Why there is muzzle flash if machineguns use some magical kinetic force instead of gunpowder?
Why does machinegun ammo suffers from ammo explosion if they don't have something to ignite and expand/explode?

Other ACs than Ultra ACs use this magical kinetic energy also because they don't jam? But they do produce heat... I sense disturbance in the force because of this theory.

[caravann]

Curccu, on 02 February 2022 - 05:13 AM, said:

Why there is muzzle flash if machineguns use some magical kinetic force instead of gunpowder?
Why does machinegun ammo suffers from ammo explosion if they don't have something to ignite and expand/explode?

Other ACs than Ultra ACs use this magical kinetic energy also because they don't jam? But they do produce heat... I sense disturbance in the force because of this theory.

In some versions of battletech normal AC do jam.

If we're going for technicalities military today have no muzzle fire on guns. It is added as visual effect in action movies.

The bullets are explosive. The reason why we don't use anti air against tanks is because the bullet is too slow to gain enough speed to penetrate but anti air bullets are put with an explosive payload. The ammo explode since the bullet itself is able to explode. They don't need any gunpowder and the space is instead replaced with an explosive chemical who ignite at impact.

[Curccu]

caravann, on 03 February 2022 - 12:43 AM, said:

If we're going for technicalities military today have no muzzle fire on guns. It is added as visual effect in action movies.

Weird that AR and all other guns I was shooting while back had muzzle flash, must be aftereffect from visuals division.
In your opinion how do military weapons accelerate projectiles (bullets/shells) today if not with gunpowder?

caravann, on 03 February 2022 - 12:43 AM, said:

The bullets are explosive. The reason why we don't use anti air against tanks is because the bullet is too slow to gain enough speed to penetrate but anti air bullets are put with an explosive payload. The ammo explode since the bullet itself is able to explode. They don't need any gunpowder and the space is instead replaced with an explosive chemical who ignite at impact.

Well sure different weapons are designed to destroy/kill different kind of targets for a reason...
but for example WW2 german flak guns would like to disagree that anti-air doesn't work on tanks.
Kinda depends what kind of shell is used.
And without gunpowder those bullets will stay attached to case and stay in chamber and nothing really happens... well primer detonation might have enough force to separate bullet and case.

[Gagis]

I think he means that movie armourers add a lot of extra powder to be burned to create massive muzzle flashes. In real guns its practically always less. A bit more on short barreled carbines and almost nothing on rifles with excessively long barrels.

But not none, just a lot less than the exaggerated fireworks burn that movie armourers go for with their blank cartridges.

[JudauAshta]

is heavy mg still dog crap??

[justcallme A S H]

HMGs pretty solid now if you get in range

[Meep Meep]

Four heavy mg are basically a rac2 that doesn't spin up or jam or generate heat.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 06 February 2022 - 08:52 PM, said:

Four heavy mg are basically a rac2 that doesn't spin up or jam or generate heat.

and with less than 1/4 of range....

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 06 February 2022 - 10:59 PM, said:

and with less than 1/4 of range....

Would you rather hmg get lmg range or better? There has to be a penalty to its sweet sweet almost no drawback dps?

I mean do you want this to be able to apply 14 sustained dps at greater than knife fighting range? As it stands with skills you can get it to around 160m which is far from the old 90m optimal.

Buzzzzzz

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 06 February 2022 - 11:08 PM, said:

Would you rather hmg get lmg range or better?

Nope, I was just adding 1 parameter to your -->

Meep Meep, on 06 February 2022 - 08:52 PM, said:

Four heavy mg are basically a rac2 that doesn't spin up or jam or generate heat.

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 06 February 2022 - 11:18 PM, said:

Nope, I was just adding 1 parameter to your -->

My apologies then. I assumed most would figure I was comparing the dps and not the range.