98 replies to this topic

[CreativeAnarchy]

Blood Rose, on 23 February 2022 - 04:30 PM, said:

Meanwhile a laser is point, click, track, repeat. No ALS, no ELM, and the devs cant/wont implement Reflective Armour. No countermeasures save not being shot in the first place.

Meanwhile the LRM boat continues to blob/stream from behind that wall/hill continuing to hit their target forcing their target to take cover while their target cannot target or hit the LRM boat back. LRMs allow the pilot to fire from complete safety. I'm pretty sure you and anyone else asking for a buff has completely missed this point.

LRMs are fine.

They don't really take much unique skill to pilot a LRM boat other than not showing themselves to the enemy because you can go an entire match without exposing yourself to fire or target lock. This is your hard counter.

Edited by CreativeAnarchy, 24 February 2022 - 06:25 AM.

[Blood Rose]

CreativeAnarchy, on 24 February 2022 - 06:24 AM, said:

Meanwhile the LRM boat continues to blob/stream from behind that wall/hill continuing to hit their target forcing their target to take cover while their target cannot target or hit the LRM boat back. LRMs allow the pilot to fire from complete safety. I'm pretty sure you and anyone else asking for a buff has completely missed this point.

LRMs are fine.

They don't really take much unique skill to pilot a LRM boat other than not showing themselves to the enemy because you can go an entire match without exposing yourself to fire or target lock. This is your hard counter.

Sooo.... The laser boat chose not to drop a single large laser, or 1.5 medium lasers, and mount an AMS and also wandered outside of his teams envelope, and also failed to take Radar Derp, and also failed to bother about ECM, looking for spotters or shooting down UAV's?
Thats him being bad not the LRM's being good.

[R0gal D0rn]

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

And if I were king for a day, I'd make locks on mechs jumping automatic. A nice little counter to jump sniping.

If you were king for a day, this game will consist in people hiding behind every cover in the map, because EVERYBODY would be in a lurm boat, and the first guy targeted would die in seconds under the rain.

I can´t conceive a more boring and tasteless gamplay than this.

Lurms can be a decent weapon in a good player hands. But to become a good player you need to stay away from lurms a looooong time, learning maps, tactics, different positinings, roles, and how other weapons work.

Lurs a re a trap. You got some kills and some damage at the beguining, and you believe they are a solution to improve, when in fact they are preventing you from learning the game and being useful to you team.

Make a experiement. Go to a testing ground and test how many time and ressources you need to kill every one of the 8 mechs on the map, and compare it with every other weapon system...

If you are clever enough you will realize how innefective they are in comparision.
The damge you do is splat damage, Almost impossible to focus a component, a open torso, do a backstabbing or achieve a cockpit kill.
The most parts of the kills you did was in already open mechs, who are engaged with teamates who are really working and risking for the kill.

Believe me, you need to go away of the delusory sensation of being better when using lurms. Then, some day, you will use them wisely and you will understand that they are not underpowered as you think...
They are simply and plainly BORING

[katoult]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 24 February 2022 - 04:44 PM, said:

If you were king for a day, this game will consist in people hiding behind every cover in the map, because EVERYBODY would be in a lurm boat, and the first guy targeted would die in seconds under the rain.

I know you regularly play faction, but have you played any quickplay in recent weeks and months?

Because what you're describing for lurms is what a significant number of the playerbase - not me - apparently thinks about the current skill beam meta in soup. In an average match you'll find 6-8 mechs of either side hiding in cover 500, 800 meters out, afraid to engage for apparent fear of even a single blue beam hitting them, while attempting to themselves switch to such meta builds in order to trade at range.

And yes, this has gotten a lot worse in recent weeks.

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 24 February 2022 - 04:44 PM, said:

Lurs a re a trap.

Any focus towards a particular weapon system is a trap. The weapon's effectiveness is irrelevant - it's not the weapon that hits where it goes, it's the player that steers it to that pixel.

If you want to farm kills in the game use lasvom. If you want to farm matchscore in the game get your Corsair going. If you're into twitchy snap-shooting bring out your PPCs. And if you want to farm damage in soup just bring 3.5k+ missiles. Or those six LPL dires for faction some people like to farm with. Anyone can do any of those. Some are better at one style, some are worse at another.

Anyone that claims that a game is about optimizing effectiveness of what they do in it, about min-maxing, should revisit their motivations for gaming in the first place. This ain't just another shooter, even if certain people - and we all know who i mean when i use that term - try desperately to turn it into one.

[foamyesque]

Brom96, on 23 February 2022 - 02:03 PM, said:

As I said before, if I pull under 300 damage in lrm 40 mech in 10 matches in a row, the mech/weapon system is simply not viable.

I run an LRM30 Catapult and breaking 300 damage with it's quite simple because it also carries four ER medium lasers so's I don't get handcuffed by ECM or Kit Foxes/Corsairs.

You overinvested in the missiles. You don't need big tube counts to do useful missile damage against open targets, and against people that're carrying proper missile defenses you're never going to overwhelm them with an extra ten tubes, because those are geared to handle LRM90+ Clan potatoes. Carry some direct fire guns to pick on the AMS boats and support your team in tighter spaces.

[R0gal D0rn]

katoult, on 25 February 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

I know you regularly play faction, but have you played any quickplay in recent weeks and months?

Because what you're describing for lurms is what a significant number of the playerbase - not me - apparently thinks about the current skill beam meta in soup. In an average match you'll find 6-8 mechs of either side hiding in cover 500, 800 meters out, afraid to engage for apparent fear of even a single blue beam hitting them, while attempting to themselves switch to such meta builds in order to trade at range.

And yes, this has gotten a lot worse in recent weeks.


Any focus towards a particular weapon system is a trap. The weapon's effectiveness is irrelevant - it's not the weapon that hits where it goes, it's the player that steers it to that pixel.

If you want to farm kills in the game use lasvom. If you want to farm matchscore in the game get your Corsair going. If you're into twitchy snap-shooting bring out your PPCs. And if you want to farm damage in soup just bring 3.5k+ missiles. Or those six LPL dires for faction some people like to farm with. Anyone can do any of those. Some are better at one style, some are worse at another.

Anyone that claims that a game is about optimizing effectiveness of what they do in it, about min-maxing, should revisit their motivations for gaming in the first place. This ain't just another shooter, even if certain people - and we all know who i mean when i use that term - try desperately to turn it into one.

The player base has been complaining ALWAYS about every meta. They complained about every new weapons system buffed or introduced, since i am in the game, and i could bet it has being going like this from the beguining.
Yes, i play Queue in another accounts, and if you ask me, i don´t have the impression of the things being worse than when, by example...
1) 3 gauses had no ghost heat
2) uac 10 had no stack penalties and groups of Kodiaks melted all in sight in seconds
3) You was once upon a time able to put 2ppc 2gausses without penalties...
4) Heavy lasers at they was released
5) Piranhas when people has not the habit to fight them

Or what the peek a boo fighting was before the engine desyncronization.
"Anyone that claims that a game is about optimizing effectiveness of what they do in it, about min-maxing, should revisit their motivations for gaming in the first place"

Correct me if i´m wrong but no way to avoid people HAVING FUN searching optimizations of the tools the game offers. The fun of kicking a ball in a chatoic way is undeniable, but the fun of winning a soccer mundial championship could be much higher- I dont think WHY te desire to win, being more clever in building your mechs, positioning and shooting Should make someone "Revisit their motivations"
This only has sense if that person is not really having fun...
But it seems clear they have.


i agree with you that more types of fun could be encouraged. This mean create buckests to separe the "Casual" player from the "tryhard" player. But i dare to think that you can´t punish the seconds only to please the first. Just my opinion

[CreativeAnarchy]

Blood Rose, on 24 February 2022 - 04:25 PM, said:

Sooo.... The laser boat chose not to drop a single large laser, or 1.5 medium lasers, and mount an AMS and also wandered outside of his teams envelope, and also failed to take Radar Derp, and also failed to bother about ECM, looking for spotters or shooting down UAV's?
Thats him being bad not the LRM's being good.

The point is the LRM boat can fire from safety, never having put themselves in danger. The complaint that the LRM boat has no counter to all other weaponry is rubbish because their counter is staying out of danger. Everyone else must get line of sight for their weapons to work, they don't go over things like LRMs. That is why they have all the counter to LRMs, LRMs can be blobbed/streamed from safety. LRMs are fine.

[Bassault]

I just read that title and had a hearty laugh.

Edited by I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, 25 February 2022 - 09:26 PM.

[Movano]

Yes, LRMs need to go back to stacking with tag, narc and artemins with both direct and indirect fire, the spread and velocity needs to be higher, and ECM lock time needs to be faster.AMS is too powerful too. Cauldron bad

[Brom96]

foamyesque, on 25 February 2022 - 03:33 PM, said:

I run an LRM30 Catapult and breaking 300 damage with it's quite simple because it also carries four ER medium lasers so's I don't get handcuffed by ECM or Kit Foxes/Corsairs.

You overinvested in the missiles. You don't need big tube counts to do useful missile damage against open targets, and against people that're carrying proper missile defenses you're never going to overwhelm them with an extra ten tubes, because those are geared to handle LRM90+ Clan potatoes. Carry some direct fire guns to pick on the AMS boats and support your team in tighter spaces.

Of course, that's why I have either lasers or MRMs. Still the build is geared to LRMs, not support weapons, and they usually do not allow for much armour, even if it is compensated with mobility to some extent. To compare it, even before the latest patch all ATM9 Veagle does above 400 damage, even if the range was far for optimal (0,4 - 1 km).

10 games with each system on Canyon. I would expect some other maps to be far less conductive for LRMs.

However, I think the point is missed - we are discussing the effectiveness of LRM, not the particular build as a whole? If you use backup weapons as you major damage dealers, then something is wrong with your primary weapon system.

Not to mention AMS firing through the terrain and the objects.

That being said, it would be interesting to have damage done split for weapon systems, instead of just bundled together.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 01:12 AM, said:

However, I think the point is missed - we are discussing the effectiveness of LRM, not the particular build as a whole? If you use backup weapons as you major damage dealers, then something is wrong with your primary weapon system.

That’s not it at all. LRMs plus ER lasers are not primary and backup, it’s a drill-and-fill combo. Like Snub PPCs plus AC/20, one isn’t just a backup for the other.

[Brom96]

Then, I must conclude, our styles of play differ considerably. In LRM boat, whole mech is equipped around presumption that the intention is to keep the enemy at the distance where LRMs are effective, I would say. Other weapons are there to cover the situations/gap when you cannot use them or when you need extra effort.

I do have 2x15LRM Catapult with tag and 3 MLs, but lasers there are backups for me, because in most situation I would fire LRM at the distances that are beyond or at the very limit of their range, so they would do very little and still heat up the mech. Same for the Maddog with 2x20 LRM and MPLs.

[Curccu]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 08:19 AM, said:

Then, I must conclude, our styles of play differ considerably. In LRM boat, whole mech is equipped around presumption that the intention is to keep the enemy at the distance where LRMs are effective, I would say. Other weapons are there to cover the situations/gap when you cannot use them or when you need extra effort.

I do have 2x15LRM Catapult with tag and 3 MLs, but lasers there are backups for me, because in most situation I would fire LRM at the distances that are beyond or at the very limit of their range, so they would do very little and still heat up the mech. Same for the Maddog with 2x20 LRM and MPLs.

cplt-c1 your "backup weapons" can be co-alpaed to range + they disable ECM and stealth with it...+ PPCs are pretty damn good against harassing lights so win win win for you.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 08:19 AM, said:

Then, I must conclude, our styles of play differ considerably. In LRM boat, whole mech is equipped around presumption that the intention is to keep the enemy at the distance where LRMs are effective, I would say. Other weapons are there to cover the situations/gap when you cannot use them or when you need extra effort.

I do have 2x15LRM Catapult with tag and 3 MLs, but lasers there are backups for me, because in most situation I would fire LRM at the distances that are beyond or at the very limit of their range, so they would do very little and still heat up the mech. Same for the Maddog with 2x20 LRM and MPLs.

..and you ask yourself (not) how you're sub300 dmg with that playstyle. change it up, and you'll see that maddogs deliver up to 1400dmg relatively quickly before you run out of ammo. setup: 2x20lrm, and 3-5 er-smalls+light-tag.
use BOTH weapon-systems, and use the lrms AS INTENDED: direct-fire, 300-400mtrs.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 26 February 2022 - 08:35 AM.

[katoult]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 08:19 AM, said:

Then, I must conclude, our styles of play differ considerably. In LRM boat, whole mech is equipped around presumption that the intention is to keep the enemy at the distance where LRMs are effective, I would say. Other weapons are there to cover the situations/gap when you cannot use them or when you need extra effort.

I suggest trying out a WHM-7S with dual LRM20/Art and quad ERML some time. You rapid-splash with the LRMs (speed-quirked to RL speed) opening components and precision-remove individual components or go for kills with the lasers.

Since to utilize the Artemis you want LOS you'll usually always also be in the range bracket for the lasers.

[Brom96]

Thanks for the advices, but I tried similar approaches in past 7 years or so. I cannot use PPCs and lrms are and will be mostly indirect fire for me. Sorry, but the amount ams in tier 1 does not allow for direct fire (for me, at least) to be any more effective then indirect, and trading off the damage usually means I am out of business after volley or two. My reflexes are not good enough to brawl with lock on weapons.

Preferably, LRMs would be indirect fire, meant to suppress or deny access through an area. That would require coordination with the rest of the team, which I have seen last time in 2019, I think.

[foamyesque]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 08:19 AM, said:

I do have 2x15LRM Catapult with tag and 3 MLs, but lasers there are backups for me, because in most situation I would fire LRM at the distances that are beyond or at the very limit of their range, so they would do very little and still heat up the mech. Same for the Maddog with 2x20 LRM and MPLs.

I don't bother with TAG or even BAP (though the tonnage is there -- I actually run AMS, since it's not uncommon to wind up in a missile duel with someone, and since I can't compete on tubes with Clan machines, gotta look for other edges), and I don't use ordinary MLs, I use *ERMLs*. Quirked out you have 450m optimum range, which is Clan ERML or Sphere LL reach, with a much snappier burn time ('cause that's quirked, as well). That's almost 300m in which your lasers and LRMs can be cofired for full damage. And the LRMs can go clear out to 1.1km, which means you have the ability to shoot back at long-range direct fire mechs as well.

[Hunka Junk]

Sure make LRMs deadlier...and remove lock on.

And if your response is that modern artillery is guided, then let's introduce emp consumables to the game.

The game is already long range enough.

People who sit in back alone are the ones complaining about lights.

You want to have your cake and eat it too.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Brom96, on 26 February 2022 - 09:20 AM, said:

Thanks for the advices, but I tried similar approaches in past 7 years or so. I cannot use PPCs and lrms are and will be mostly indirect fire for me. Sorry, but the amount ams in tier 1 does not allow for direct fire (for me, at least) to be any more effective then indirect, and trading off the damage usually means I am out of business after volley or two. My reflexes are not good enough to brawl with lock on weapons.

Preferably, LRMs would be indirect fire, meant to suppress or deny access through an area. That would require coordination with the rest of the team, which I have seen last time in 2019, I think.

I guess our styles do differ, then. This is my best performing LRM mech, a Highlander 733P. It has the armor to tank, the heat sinks to never stop firing, and the direct fire armament to essentially treat the LRMs as if they were some kind of LBX weapon that also fires indirect on the way to the brawl line. I have a similar setup with an Archer with 5 ERML. In both cases the lasers aren’t backup weapons, they’re scoring hits along with the lurms.