98 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

DaZur, on 21 February 2022 - 11:27 AM, said:

Bring back the LRM death spirals.... BAM... LRMs are deadlier.

Hell, I'd be happy is they only spiraled with LOS locks.

bring back all lurmpocalypse updates? and add test server typo also that missiles had zero cooldown...

[LordNothing]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 February 2022 - 12:08 PM, said:

Rather than all that, just make one simple change... a missile that is fired with a lock becomes self guided, so even if it loses lock during flight, it still homes in and hits the target. Done and dusted, and for streak missiles too.

The only issue would be how much effort that mechanic change would be on PGI. if its not a matter of changing an XML value, they won't do it at this point.

id be fine if that was an artemis feature. but not for po' boy lerms.

clans also supposidly get streak lrms, which i would think would work the same way if they ever get implemented.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 February 2022 - 07:31 PM.

[CreativeAnarchy]

I would be OK with a damage buff but only when LRMers have line of sight. I'd be OK with a tighter spread with damage buff if LRMers have line of sight, but ONLY if LRMers have line of sight. The LRMer should see their target to get the buff.

LRMers have a counter to the other team. LRMers hide behind walls and rocks while LRMing preventing anyone from getting a target lock on them because of no LOS. LRMers currently don't need to see their target, they rely upon their team to eat the damage to get locks because they are the ones in there trading damage while LRMers can comfortably stream/blob fire over what they are hiding behind. This is why they don't need a buff. If you are worried about lights then load in secondary weapons instead of all LRM.

If LRMers share armor with their team and getting LOS locks, I would be OK with a buff, otherwise no.

[Bamboozle Gold]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 February 2022 - 12:08 PM, said:

Rather than all that, just make one simple change... a missile that is fired with a lock becomes self guided, so even if it loses lock during flight, it still homes in and hits the target. Done and dusted, and for streak missiles too.

The only issue would be how much effort that mechanic change would be on PGI. if its not a matter of changing an XML value, they won't do it at this point.

If I'm not mistaken there is a value for it in XML but I'm not sure if it's used or if it's one of these cases where the XML value is ignored and a hard coded value is used instead.

<Weapon id="1032" name="StreakSRM2" HardpointAliases="Missile,Missile2,StreakSRM,StreakSRM2,ISStreakSRM,ISStreakSRM2" faction="InnerSphere">
... trackingstrength="100.0" ...

Compare with current LRM value:

<Weapon id="1026" name="LRM5" CType="WeaponLRM" HardpointAliases="Missile,Missile5,LRM,LRM5,ISLRM,ISLRM5" faction="InnerSphere">
... trackingstrength="2.0" ...

But consider what this would do to lights. You would physically have to get something between you and the LRMs that follow you or you're just dead. Or you could just bring more ECM to counter locks in the first place. I think maybe not so ideal change.

The problem with LRMs is that they're a low skill weapon. Everyone says they're not but LRMs are so much more common in T5 than they are in T1, which speaks in volumes. I don't want them to be stronger in the indirect / lost locks scenarios. LRMs, if they need buffing, should be improved in the active use scenarios - when you are within 500m and you've got direct LOS on your enemy. The game should encourage players to play actively instead of sit back and wait for team to acquire locks.

Edited by Bamboozle Gold, 22 February 2022 - 12:44 AM.

[Dogstar]

Bamboozle Gold, on 22 February 2022 - 12:42 AM, said:

The problem with LRMs is that they're a low skill weapon. Everyone says they're not but LRMs are so much more common in T5 than they are in T1, which speaks in volumes.

There's more than one reason LRMs are popular in lower tiers.

Firstly, LRMs are a defining feature of Battletech, As such many newer players are going to gravitate towards using them and they are effective against other newer/lower skilled players who haven't figured out all the ways to counter act them.

Higher tier players have had plenty of experience in dealing with LRMs and so they are a much less effective system against them because there are so very many countermeasures

Higher tier players also have better access to a wider variety of builds because they have more wealth than lower tier players, again this allows them to counter LRMS more effectively

Players who do use LRMs in higher tiers (and they're not as common as the forums would have you believe) get much less bang for their buck thanks to the increased countermeasures other players use.


Lastly, and repeatedly, LRMS ARE NOT A LOW SKILL WEAPON, you cannot succeed with LRMs if you cannot aim as well as any other weapon system and require a much better tactical awareness of the enemy to be any more effective than making the 'incoming missiles' portion of the HUD light up. I know this for a fact because I really am a moderately skilled player and I don't do better with LRMs - which I should do if they were so easy to use as some people make out.

If missiles were a low skill weapon that are easy to succeed with then all the tiers would be aflood with them.


Jumping on the 'low skill' propaganda bandwagon just marks an opinion as poorly thought out, lacking in actual current LRM experience, or simply biased.

Edited by Dogstar, 22 February 2022 - 01:43 AM.

[katoult]

Bamboozle Gold, on 22 February 2022 - 12:42 AM, said:

The problem with LRMs is that they're a low skill weapon. Everyone says they're not but LRMs are so much more common in T5 than they are in T1, which speaks in volumes.

Uh, your argument is the opposite of what you think it is. If LRMs were a low skill weapon with which it is easy to farm then people would rise up the Experience Bar far faster based on matchscore, and therefore we would see a far wider playerbase in T1-T2.

[Curccu]

katoult, on 22 February 2022 - 02:26 AM, said:

Uh, your argument is the opposite of what you think it is. If LRMs were a low skill weapon with which it is easy to farm then people would rise up the Experience Bar far faster based on matchscore, and therefore we would see a far wider playerbase in T1-T2.

Low skill super eez against low skill opponents...

But real issue for lurms are indirect fire and even more just NARC and maybe UAV, those will mess up anyone no matter how skilled they are if there just isn't high enough cover close by.

and with same weapon players should be somewhat dangerous with their own LOS spotting and direct fire... hard to balance.

[Bamboozle Gold]

Dogstar, on 22 February 2022 - 01:41 AM, said:

Lastly, and repeatedly, LRMS ARE NOT A LOW SKILL WEAPON, you cannot succeed with LRMs if you cannot aim as well as any other weapon system and require a much better tactical awareness of the enemy to be any more effective than making the 'incoming missiles' portion of the HUD light up. I know this for a fact because I really am a moderately skilled player and I don't do better with LRMs - which I should do if they were so easy to use as some people make out.

If missiles were a low skill weapon that are easy to succeed with then all the tiers would be aflood with them.

Maybe you mean all tiers would be afoot with them?

Edited by Bamboozle Gold, 22 February 2022 - 03:47 AM.

[Dogstar]

Bamboozle Gold, on 22 February 2022 - 03:47 AM, said:

Maybe you mean all tiers would be afoot with them?

One guy acting like a twit on video doesn't make for much actual evidence.

While we're at it not the date of the video - 2017, well before the lock zone reduction in 2018.

I'm guessing that, like a lot of 'skilled' players you haven't actually played any sort of lock-on weapon in the last four years so aren't aware that it takes just as much skill to secure a lock on as it does to shoot a laser nowadays

Edited by Dogstar, 23 February 2022 - 01:08 AM.

[Knownswift]

All weapons in this game require positioning and map knowledge to be effective.

Manually aimed projectile weapons are the hardest to use weapons in this game. Lock ons don't even require you to get the reticle on the mech. All you have to do is track.

I see plenty of lrms in "tier 1 games."

High count salvos in LOS can absolutely shred. There are IS LRM80+ builds out there with something like 14-16 sustained dps before skill tree, and they have enough cooling to fire through ghost heat several times in a row. That is absolutely sick.

Streaks are even easier. You can literally just run at your intended target to get within range and hold the fire button down. Once you fire they always hit.

The only lock on in a bad place right now are ATMs, IMO, but I also don't want to go back to having a VGL-3 in every game.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Dogstar, on 23 February 2022 - 01:02 AM, said:

.. that it takes just as much skill to secure a lock on as it does to shoot a laser nowadays

it really does not. at least not in this part of the multiverse.

[Blood Rose]

Captain Caveman DE, on 23 February 2022 - 03:55 AM, said:

it really does not. at least not in this part of the multiverse.

Your right, lasers are actually easier.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly as someone who has a number of LRM boats i think they are in a good place right now. not perfect but not terrible. mind you anyone that says LRMs are easy mode haven't used them against players with any amount of skill. they have an odd place in being a weapon that gauges your skill against you opponant's more than any other weapon. with lasers you just need to see a target to do damage, ballistics are a little tougher (and PPC) because of travel time but its still see target shoot. now look at LRM (i will use the same situation for simplicity) target shows itself now first it has to be close enough to get a target box (FU if they have stealth armor) then point at target. now comes the problem, now you have to keep you reticle nearly dead center in the box for a few seconds (keeping yourself exposed while other weapons could have long gone back to cover) and hope they stay out of cover long enough not only for the lock but for the missiles to get to target (remember Direct fire LRMs have a lower arc so easy enough for the target to get to cover before they get there.). we wont even mention here the many counters you have to calculate in. like if there is enough AMS your just spitting in the wind (mind this usually only happens when someone brings a Corsair 7A to the field. oddly as much as folks complain about LRMs you rarely see many people put the 1-1.5 tons depending on faction that just a single AMS would take. (just think if every mech on the field was carrying at least 1 AMS unit, not a single missile would get through and remember that AMS works on all missile types to differing degrees). indirect fire its its own thing and requires you to know the map and have a good idea of what is between you and the enemy that is if you get luck enough to players on your team that know how to press the R key. (big props to those little heroes that carry TAG or NARC (TAG is something you can carry yourself if you have the tonnage but NARC isn't something an LRM boat has the spare tonnage and space to carry)

now if i would change anything it would two main things

1-- increase the range inside the box that the center of you retical has to be in to get a lock (this was one of the many nerfs they got with the big LRM arc changes)

2-- return ARTEMIS back to how it was before the aforementioned nerf because how it is now is not worth the tonnage and slot increase.

Bonus-3-- overall lock times could use some lowering but they aren't to bad unless you are trying indirect fire against a target with ECM coverage. (though that is why you carry ECM in the first place so i'm fine with that.)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 23 February 2022 - 12:05 PM.

[Blood Rose]

Nah, LRM's are not in a good place. And they wont be until we receive the hard counters to other forms of damage I already mentioned and LRM's receive a buff.
Right now missiling is too random, and if the other team have a few AMS you can basically forget using missiles.

[Brom96]

For the folks thinking lrms are low skill weapons, please try to track and lock any fast moving mech. Play the lrm mech for a while. I have played all the weapon systems and atms and lrms are hardest to use, apart form PPC in which I sucketh and it shall always be so. Only the atms offer far more reward then lrms , so they are viable in every game.

The target lock zone is small enough that you loose the track on fast movers that are close enough to you (under 400m and tracking them directly).

The enemy can find the cover, and, well, I have no idea how it's done in tier 5, but in higher tiers people know how to find the cover, which is basically any structure or a rock outcrop that you hide the mech behind, while your missiles reach them. People know about radar deprivation nodes. People actually play Corsair 7As which can pluck most of your missiles out of the air with their 4 ams modules. And that is before we get to ecm.

As I said before, if I pull under 300 damage in lrm 40 mech in 10 matches in a row, the mech/weapon system is simply not viable.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Blood Rose, on 23 February 2022 - 11:23 AM, said:

Your right, lasers are actually easier.

here, I'll break it down for you; feel free to disagree.

-running a laserhunchieIIC, I expect and usually do my 500+dmg, 1-3kills and when the match doesn't go horribad (read: 12:1, 1:12 etc), I expect that to be 700-900 and 2-5kills.
and I have to work for that.
guess so far you'll agree, eh?

here's the thing: around xmas I had the 'urge' to use one of my hunchieIICs, going with lurms.
6kills, 5kmdds, dmg ran out (cause ammo) at ~1100dmg
-and I was drunk like a skunk (relatively speaking) and payed very little attention to the match.
then I repeated that 2x with other med/hvy lurmies (can only lurm so much, even when drunk).


short version: yeah, shooting lasers ain't rocket-science.
spamming lurms is way easier. maybe try them at closer distances and with direct fire.
again: feel free to disagree.

Brom96, on 23 February 2022 - 02:03 PM, said:

As I said before, if I pull under 300 damage in lrm 40 mech in 10 matches in a row, the mech/weapon system is simply not viable.

sorry, but .. see above. my hunchie is a lurm45, my treb is lurm30, and they both do their 500-700 ON AVERAGE and max out at ~1000 thx to ammo, and they often do max out.
they do the same for other folks.

if you're doing sub300, I have to assume it's not the weaponsystem that's at fault here; analysing what you're doing wrong and improving on that is the right thing to do here - or you can continue blaming your tools, as any good craftsman does, right?

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 23 February 2022 - 04:31 PM.

[Blood Rose]

Captain Caveman DE, on 23 February 2022 - 04:24 PM, said:

here, I'll break it down for you; feel free to disagree.

-running a laserhunchieIIC, I expect and usually do my 500+dmg, 1-3kills and when the match doesn't go horribad, I expect that to be 700-900 and 2-5kills.
and I have to work for that.
guess so far you'll agree, eh?

here's the thing: around xmas I had the 'urge' to use one of my hunchieIICs, going with lurms.
6kills, 5kmdds, dmg ran out (cause ammo) at ~1100dmg
-and I was drunk like a skunk (relatively speaking) and payed very little attention to the match.
then I repeated that 2x with other med/hvy lurmies (can only lurm so much, even when drunk).


short version: yeah, shooting lasers ain't rocket-science.
spamming lurms is way easier. maybe try them at closer distances and with direct fire.
again: feel free to disagree.

So, you were dropped in against low tier players with little experience and/or skill? And/or players who chose not to pack an AMS or ECM? And had not bothered to grab Radar Derp? Because thats the only way an LRM boat can do anything, and I should know, I do run them. Or did, I re-tooled my Archer for MRM's, breaking through AMS walls was damn near impossible most matches.
Meanwhile a laser is point, click, track, repeat. No ALS, no ELM, and the devs cant/wont implement Reflective Armour. No countermeasures save not being shot in the first place.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Blood Rose, on 23 February 2022 - 04:30 PM, said:

Because thats the only way an LRM boat can do anything, and I should know, I do run them.

well here's a shocking thought: maybe you don't.
anywhoo. continue doing your stuff, and good luck with that. *I'm out*

[Dogstar]

Captain Caveman DE, on 23 February 2022 - 04:35 PM, said:

well here's a shocking thought: maybe you don't.
anywhoo. continue doing your stuff, and good luck with that. *I'm out*

It's more like maybe _you_ don't, Jarl's shows you as last playing more than 10 games in Oct, so the few games you had at xmas didn't show up and would appear to be seal bashing wins - you're easily a top tier really good player but are in tier 3 because you haven't played enough games to progress to the appropriate level of competition, so for you, yes, LRMs are easy mode, but then so is every other weapon when you're not in a fair fight all the time

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Dogstar, on 24 February 2022 - 03:02 AM, said:

It's more like maybe _you_ don't, Jarl's shows you as last playing more than 10 games in Oct, so the few games you had at xmas didn't show up and would appear to be seal bashing wins - you're easily a top tier really good player but are in tier 3 because you haven't played enough games to progress to the appropriate level of competition, so for you, yes, LRMs are easy mode, but then so is every other weapon when you're not in a fair fight all the time

oh, let's think your thoughts through for a while. I hope you see where your 'logic' doesn't add up.
Cheers.