23 replies to this topic

[evil kerensky]

just want to say, that i really want to come back and enjoy the game, but i have an issue holding me back.

from an outsiders perspective (in other words, someone with about a div c level of skill), it looks like everything that made mid-long range trading fun was brought back perfectly. that style of gameplay is back and it feels good and fun to do. brawling at close range in anything over 60 tons isnt at that same level. part of it has to do with traditionally brawly weapons not being powerful enough in their range bracket (my theory is that if the weapon is close range, its dps and ppfld dmg should be slightly higher than equivalent weapon combos of similar tonnage and size because youll be taking damage getting into range), but i can play and enjoy the game with the values we have now for brawl weapons. i feel its an issue, but its not keeping me from wanting to play.

what i cant get past though is the mobility values we have. prior to desync, it was more acceptable for range to be this strong because you could torso twist off incoming damage more easily, even in the "barndoor" style mechs like the griffin and the battlemaster. with current values, its not possible. a lot of mechs like the atlas got some special attention, but not the ones that need it the most. if pgi could just un desync the engines, id be happy. short of that if yall could comb through the mechs and give them a twist/turn rate thats at least close to what the meta builds called for prior to desync, then id be happy with that as well. until then, the game is going to feel off, and that makes me not want to play.

and before "waa, balance" i just want to remind everyone that the point of the cauldron initiative was initially not to "balance" the game, but to make it fun again. not being able to shield a st on an otherwise decent mech may be "balanced" but it isnt fun.

[LordBraxton]

Brawling is pretty nerfed right now on anything heavy, yeah. It sucks. People who disagree will try showing you a big game they had in an LBX annihilator, but for classic brawling heavies, or mechs that relied on mobility in the 75-90kph range are better off poking like the rest.

Not sure why the 'cauldron' thought it was a good idea to buff PPCs and lasers so much.

Right now, waiting for the right time to brawl can mean sitting out a lot of the match, while huge chunks of each team trade at long range. It feels more like a tank game than a mech game. Using terrain to close also isn't viable if most of your team is also playing the meta (cant blame them) so you either have to sit back with your team and wait, or end up risking being isolated.

One of the reasons when I came back I never grinded back up the tiers. I knew once I got out of tier 3 again I wouldnt be able to run the mechs\loadouts I like anyway. A couple games now and again is enough, unless we get more meaningful changes, like more defensive buffs or huge agility buffs to make up for all the HSL+ and long range buffs the cauldron has spewed out.

Right now it is peek n poke warrior, but a lot of the top players\cauldron members enjoy that playstyle, judging by their videos, so they buff what they enjoy.

Edited by LordBraxton, 22 February 2022 - 05:50 PM.

[pattonesque]

brawling is still good. roll in something like a 2UAC20/3SNPPC FNR-6U and see how even a compromised chassis can own bones

[w0qj]

Actually MWO/Cauldron did improve most mechs' mobility, especially for Assaults.
https://mwomercs.com...2420-22june2021
https://mwomercs.com...obility-changes
https://mwomercs.com...42410-18may2021

https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

But guess MWO/Cauldron buffed Laser/PPC a bit more than the ballistic weapons, hence your valid observation.

But ballistic weapons still beat laser/PPC mechs while brawling.
The trick is to conserve your armor until brawling happens.
I personally much prefer brawling with ballistic weapons!

ymmv

Edited by w0qj, 22 February 2022 - 06:23 PM.

[LordNothing]

still think er lasers should have reduced damage at close range. this would help brawling a bit as range traders would crumble quickly if pushed. im thinking something like a linear ramp in from about half damage at point blank range to full damage at half of optimal. its no different from the way atms work, you have to maintain a specific range to your target to maximize effect.

this would encourage snipers to be more mobile and reposition frequently, and it would also enable fast moving mechs with more mobility to capitalize on range traders by closing in.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 February 2022 - 07:02 PM.

[YueFei]

pattonesque, on 22 February 2022 - 06:08 PM, said:

brawling is still good. roll in something like a 2UAC20/3SNPPC FNR-6U and see how even a compromised chassis can own bones

I think differing user experiences can be very chassis-dependent.

I've rolled around in brawlers for a long time, and generally agree brawling is strong. But most of that experience is in Shadowhawks, Wolverines, Centurions.

However, this month I went back to my first ever mech, the HBK-4SP, playing only that mech the whole month. And oh boy, trying to brawl in that thing is painful. I'm sure there's some other chassis that are sub-standard brawlers, too. If a player's brawling experiences have been only in those sub-standard mechs, I can see how they'd easily conclude that brawling sucks.

I suppose a high skill player could make anything work, and get a successful W/L in a HBK-4SP. But not everyone is a mech god. I think even a high skill player that can rack up a 2+ W/L in a HBK-4SP would likely still find that its relative performance is still lacking when compared to their own performance in better mechs.

I think a lot of casual players just choose mechs based on how cool they think it looks, and so if they by chance happen to pick a less viable chassis, their experience of the game will be very different from other players that are "in the know".

The Cauldron's overarching goal is to make everything viable, so eventually this kind of problem should go away, but it's still an on-going process.

[pattonesque]

YueFei, on 22 February 2022 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think differing user experiences can be very chassis-dependent.

I've rolled around in brawlers for a long time, and generally agree brawling is strong. But most of that experience is in Shadowhawks, Wolverines, Centurions.

However, this month I went back to my first ever mech, the HBK-4SP, playing only that mech the whole month. And oh boy, trying to brawl in that thing is painful. I'm sure there's some other chassis that are sub-standard brawlers, too. If a player's brawling experiences have been only in those sub-standard mechs, I can see how they'd easily conclude that brawling sucks.

I suppose a high skill player could make anything work, and get a successful W/L in a HBK-4SP. But not everyone is a mech god. I think even a high skill player that can rack up a 2+ W/L in a HBK-4SP would likely still find that its relative performance is still lacking when compared to their own performance in better mechs.

I think a lot of casual players just choose mechs based on how cool they think it looks, and so if they by chance happen to pick a less viable chassis, their experience of the game will be very different from other players that are "in the know".

The Cauldron's overarching goal is to make everything viable, so eventually this kind of problem should go away, but it's still an on-going process.

yeah that one needs some buffs I think

[Weeny Machine]

The buff to the long range weapons has led to a whack-a-mole playstyle and you hardly see any brawlers. The problem is now, that if a brawler is in range he has to kill so quickly or else he gets roasted from half across the map should anyone get a bead on you - or lurmed.

Usually you see heavies and assaults laser boating and only now and then a Mad Cat II with the typical autocannon layout.

Obviously the hitscan crap overperforms or else it wouldn't be spread that much in each and every match.

And why the Cauldron likes that? Hey, they come from FP which this boring playstyle was/is common. Now they transformed QP into this point-and-click fest. Very interesting for them, for people who like diversity and good dirty brawling it is after a time as interesting as watching paint dry

w0qj, on 22 February 2022 - 06:22 PM, said:

Actually MWO/Cauldron did improve most mechs' mobility, especially for Assaults.
https://mwomercs.com...2420-22june2021
https://mwomercs.com...obility-changes
https://mwomercs.com...42410-18may2021

https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

But guess MWO/Cauldron buffed Laser/PPC a bit more than the ballistic weapons, hence your valid observation.

But ballistic weapons still beat laser/PPC mechs while brawling.
The trick is to conserve your armor until brawling happens.
I personally much prefer brawling with ballistic weapons!

ymmv

Yeah, improving assaults' mobility was a mistake. They should be clumsy and tanky. As it stands now most of them can keep regular light mechs easily in their firing arc (20t are the exception)

Edited by Weeny Machine, 23 February 2022 - 04:35 AM.

[caravann]

The 80-85 tons plays like 60-65 tons with the same speed of 80kph.
80-81kph is the most common speed, it doesn't give much advantage.
I believe that the main reason why them don't want to change is that the nascar function on that all mechs runs equal in speed.

The 80-85 is put in this category by having 80kph engines but they run like 60 or 65 ton mechs.

The battlemaster is an overgrown thunderbolt in every way. It drives like one and it acts like one.

[Bud Crue]

pattonesque, on 22 February 2022 - 06:08 PM, said:

brawling is still good. roll in something like a 2UAC20/3SNPPC FNR-6U and see how even a compromised chassis can own bones

Brawling in select mechs at the tonnage extremes can still be an excellent game play experience. Some lights and some assaults can dominate, but every thing in the middle with the exception of some ultra quirked variants, the trade offs just aren’t worth it, and even then few variants can compete. In your Fafnir example,being slow, and limited to brawl range, but capable of dishing out a near 70 point alpha is a reasonable trade off. For me, I go with Atlases when I want this style. Mechs like this are the exception though.

The problem as I see it is more akin to what the OP is getting at, namely there are still an awful lot of chassis, including some assaults (e.g. try brawling in say a Charger hero against that Fafnir), but mainly heavies and mediums, that for a variety of reasons (hard point limitation, etc.) simply can’t compete with the big boys. A Cataphract, despite all of its quirks simply doesn’t have the brawling mobility or punch to brawl against something like that Fafnir or Atlas. My plethora of MPL brawlers are an even worse comparison. That’s just trying to compare brawlers. When you then consider that there are plenty of long and mid range builds that can not only alpha with same or greater potential as brawlers of equal weight, there is simply no reason to even try to brawl with those mechs.

[ScrapIron Prime]

YueFei, on 22 February 2022 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think differing user experiences can be very chassis-dependent.

I've rolled around in brawlers for a long time, and generally agree brawling is strong. But most of that experience is in Shadowhawks, Wolverines, Centurions.

However, this month I went back to my first ever mech, the HBK-4SP, playing only that mech the whole month. And oh boy, trying to brawl in that thing is painful. I'm sure there's some other chassis that are sub-standard brawlers, too. If a player's brawling experiences have been only in those sub-standard mechs, I can see how they'd easily conclude that brawling sucks.

Agreed. Try as i might, I can't make a Griffin take fire very well. A Shadowhawk is better, and a Centurion rolls damage like a boss. It isn't the speed of the torsos, its the geometry combined with the quirks. A Griffin with PPC/MRM or 4LL can dish it out, but a Centurion with a rapid fire AC/10 can tank it.

Brawling is indeed not dead. The meta changed, like it always does, and the chassis that are good at certain roles have to adapt along with it.

[Kotis77]

In before ASH or minions come and say GITGUD. But yeah game has been going for trying to make QP more complike. I dont mind it but playerbase has been playing nascar for 6+? years and trying to teach old dogs now new tricks aint gonna happen. Cauldron should understand what the playerbase is and just try to preserve game and not to try to change too much and lose players.

Brawling is easiest playstyle aka nascar and they have indirect nerf it by inflating other playstyles that requiers more skill.


It would be fine if we got lots of players that can handle tier 1 games, but there is only so few tier 1 players that can handle that. Now we draggin lower tier pilots to tier 1 games that cant handle it.

DATA got channel full of vids showing every mech is OP when lance of world champions drove them. OK misty is broken, but other glasscannons are fine. But there is so few good pilots comparing to other skills of ppl.

Hope Cauldrons is gonna understand this but i think im just gonna get memed again. Cos true warriors shouldnt show fairness they should just wreck everything.

I prefer we would go back to soloque to get matchquality up again. But i understand playing with friends too but at the end ppl will play more if quality of games is higher

Edited by Kotis77, 23 February 2022 - 08:34 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Kotis77, on 23 February 2022 - 08:26 AM, said:

In before ASH or minions come and say GITGUD. But yeah game has been going for trying to make QP more complike. I dont mind it but playerbase has been playing nascar for 6+? years and trying to teach old dogs now new tricks aint gonna happen. Cauldron should understand what the playerbase is and just try to preserve game and not to try to change too much and lose players.

Brawling is easiest playstyle aka nascar and they have indirect nerf it by inflating other playstyles that requiers more skill.


It would be fine if we got lots of players that can handle tier 1 games, but there is only so few tier 1 players that can handle that. Now we draggin lower tier pilots to tier 1 games that cant handle it.

DATA got channel full of vids showing every mech is OP when lance of world champions drove them. OK misty is broken, but other glasscannons are fine. But there is so few good pilots comparing to other skills of ppl.

Hope Cauldrons is gonna understand this but i think im just gonna get memed again. Cos true warriors shouldnt show fairness they should just wreck everything.

I prefer we would go back to soloque to get matchquality up again. But i understand playing with friends too but at the end ppl will play more if quality of games is higher

Oh please, stop that "no skill style" arguments. I have seen DWs full of ERLL sit in one spot the whole match shooting things on the other side of the map and got out from the match with minor armour damage. That's also sniping and I seriously do not know where the skill is here to click a hitscan weapon to fire across more than half a map

Brawling...the tricky part is to get to your target without taking damage, kill it without taking too much damage AND get out. Trading your mech for another one achieves nothing

Edited by Weeny Machine, 23 February 2022 - 10:48 AM.

[Kotis77]

Tracking with lasers requires skill, but yeah this that they have buffed longrange too much that ppl do that is just stupid. But its so strong so why ppl wouldnt do that. there is hardly any counter to that. Unless some lights go kill it or ppl with longrange trade back.

[Blood Rose]

Kotis77, on 23 February 2022 - 08:52 AM, said:

Tracking with lasers requires skill, but yeah this that they have buffed longrange too much that ppl do that is just stupid. But its so strong so why ppl wouldnt do that. there is hardly any counter to that. Unless some lights go kill it or ppl with longrange trade back.

Tracking with lasers takes a pigeons level of skill. You put the marker over the target and keep it there, its one of the easiest things out there. Hence laser vomit is so popular, along with long range sniping because hey, the maps are almost all configured in a way that explicitly favours sniping builds, to the point that of the three city maps two are split by gigantic open areas and the other one has a convenient island situated in a place that lets anything on it enjoy direct fire straight onto the most popular engagement area with no cover in between.
Brawling is not dead, but for every game I have where I do well, get a few kills, and do a lot of damage there are six or seven where I get torn to bits by long range fire, or spend the entire match hunkering down just waiting for a chance to close, or get shat on by snipers on the way in and am completely ineffective when I get there. Or, the real killer, get killed by the snipers when I do manage to get in.
Maps need redesigning. Sort range weapons need an overhaul. Convergence time needs to come back.

[Kotis77]

90% people of this game cant track with lasers. sure everyone can shoot non moving target, but im talking tracking that you can land everything on one component moving target. At least i dont see that on tier 1 games.

Edited by Kotis77, 23 February 2022 - 11:43 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Blood Rose, on 23 February 2022 - 10:49 AM, said:

Tracking with lasers takes a pigeons level of skill. You put the marker over the target and keep it there, its one of the easiest things out there. Hence laser vomit is so popular, along with long range sniping because hey, the maps are almost all configured in a way that explicitly favours sniping builds, to the point that of the three city maps two are split by gigantic open areas and the other one has a convenient island situated in a place that lets anything on it enjoy direct fire straight onto the most popular engagement area with no cover in between.
Brawling is not dead, but for every game I have where I do well, get a few kills, and do a lot of damage there are six or seven where I get torn to bits by long range fire, or spend the entire match hunkering down just waiting for a chance to close, or get shat on by snipers on the way in and am completely ineffective when I get there. Or, the real killer, get killed by the snipers when I do manage to get in.
Maps need redesigning. Sort range weapons need an overhaul. Convergence time needs to come back.

all true.

When long range becomes the meta, peek n poke becomes the style, which means targets are often moving less than ever. It all snowballs toward laser vomit and PPFLD at range

[Blood Rose]

Kotis77, on 23 February 2022 - 11:41 AM, said:

90% people of this game cant track with lasers. sure everyone can shoot non moving target, but im talking tracking that you can land everything on one component moving target. At least i dont see that on tier 1 games.

I refuse to believe this. Tracking with lasers is piss easy, its childs play.

[KaptinOrk]

evil kerensky, on 22 February 2022 - 04:56 PM, said:

from an outsiders perspective (in other words, someone with about a div c level of skill), it looks like everything that made mid-long range trading fun was brought back perfectly. that style of gameplay is back and it feels good and fun to do. brawling at close range in anything over 60 tons isnt at that same level. part of it has to do with traditionally brawly weapons not being powerful enough in their range bracket (my theory is that if the weapon is close range, its dps and ppfld dmg should be slightly higher than equivalent weapon combos of similar tonnage and size because youll be taking damage getting into range), but i can play and enjoy the game with the values we have now for brawl weapons. i feel its an issue, but its not keeping me from wanting to play.

IMO, short range brawling has always been a high risk, high reward playstyle, unfortunately, the risk in the current meta is too high for the reward. I don't want long range nerfed, I'd like to see short range brawling weapons get a little better, if I'm putting in the effort to get past long range where snipers and LRM boats dominate, then my short range brawling weapons should dominate up close. I'm not talking sweeping changes here, just little tweaks.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 23 February 2022 - 01:55 PM.

[Kanil]

Blood Rose, on 23 February 2022 - 12:49 PM, said:

I refuse to believe this. Tracking with lasers is piss easy, its childs play.

I must be less than a child then, because I sure find using FLD weapons a vast amount easier than trying to hold a laser burn on a specific component.

I can put up some damage with laser boats, sure, but if I actively want to kill 'mechs instead of splash damage all over them, I have to use ballistics.