51 replies to this topic

[knight-of-ni]

@DOZER - I appreciate your attempt at having an honest discussion. Now, if the author’s from the other “light mech’s op, you suck if you disagree” threads would only follow suit.

No matter what side of this issue you fall on, I’d recommend we all watch DATA’s videos.

This one in particular is interesting, since it puts two top players against each other:


After watching this video, my question is, what exactly is the argument being made?

If the argument being made is the Mist Lynx, in particular, needs some kind of nerf, then that sounds like a fair, debatable question.

However, doesn’t this video also expose the weakness of the latest, long range, meta builds? Doesn't this underscore the need for these kinds of mechs to be escorted by others better able to repel the light mech?

If, on the other hand, the argument being made is that no light mech should be able run up to an assault mech and 1v1 it nearly every time, then I would ask why not? What strength should a light mech have, if not that? Getting up into the grill of a slow mech is one thing during 1v1, but a completely different animal in 12v12. That is where the skill lies for the light mech…. being able to get that close to the target without getting splatted in the process.

From what I understand, the majority of the Cauldron does not see it the same way that DATA does. It would be interesting to see why kind of responses the other Cauldron members make to some of these specific claims. ASH has made a good point that, statistically, light mechs are the least performing weight class, but what is the response to something more specific such as the Myst Lynx has too much dps or too much armor?

[Weeny Machine]

First of all, before you can have an honest discussion you should be fair enough to say that it is not "the light mech class". People perceive a few chassis as problematic.

Despite I really like light mechs, the re-scaling was horrible for them - in good and bad sense. The 20t mechs are often a tad too small and it can be a pain in the arse to land a hit when the pilot is really good and the 35t mechs too large and get too easily hit.


Secondly, I think the problem is that when it comes to light it does not only depend on the skill of the light mech pilot but also how good the enemy pilot is. I don't want to insult anyone but every potato thinks "moar gunz da betta!" and then they sit in a relatively clumsy assault, face a good light mech pilot and get dismantled while causing hardly any damage and this gets worse because they run no pinpoint damage weapons because of the laz0rz spam meta. Of course people think "wtf?!" and are royalled p*****. I totally understand that
The problem is that they do not see it when a double gauss hits a 20t and takes an arm or leg off or at least open the structure so that glancing lasers blow the section off. When this salvo comes from a couple of map squares away, this is equally annoying for the light pilot


But I doubt there will be a solution because short of a second re-scaling for the 20t (and 35t mechs, please) there will be always the "hard-to-hit" issue. And I doubt this will happen because of the undead state of the game

Edited by Weeny Machine, 24 February 2022 - 09:39 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

@DOZER - I appreciate your attempt at having an honest discussion.

While I don't see much of a difference to the other "Light mech's OP" threads. Neither in perceived intent nor in expected outcome.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

No matter what side of this issue you fall on, I’d recommend we all watch DATA’s videos.

And I'd then recommend taking everything shown and said in these videos with various amounts of salt.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

This one in particular is interesting, since it puts two top players against each other:
[removed]

The implied expectation that "two top players" being put against each other will produce something "interesting" or worthy for "debate" is in serious danger of turning into an appeal to authority.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

After watching this video, my question is, what exactly is the argument being made?

The "argument" being made - by D A T A's own words - is answering the question of whether or not the Mist Lynx is "OP" in a 1 on 1 scenario against an assault mechs of the "meta mech" variety when (allegedly) attacking said assault mech in a "frontal charge" on a fairly "open" terrain.

Unfortunately there are so many things wrong with the stated premises both in terms of systematic approach as well as actual execution in the video that - at least to me - it ends up being more of a waste time both on D A T A's and Bowser's end as well as my end when watching it.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

If the argument being made is the Mist Lynx, in particular, needs some kind of nerf, then that sounds like a fair, debatable question.

The argument already falls short at the point where it's not "the" Mist Lynx but rather a very specific build in a very specific scenario (that at times neither entirely fits the voiced premise nor can be considered "normal" under actual gameplay situations in either QP or FP).

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

However, doesn’t this video also expose the weakness of the latest, long range, meta builds?

If you really want to consider the results of this video I'd say that this video shows an "anti-meta mech" (in an edge case scenario) doing exactly what the idea of an "anti-meta mech" is supposed to do. People should consider adapting the overall "meta" (both for mech builds and player behaviour within non-edge case gameplay scenarios) instead of simply trying to label the "anti-meta mech" as being "OP". Only if changes to the "meta" don't affect the results for both general and - to a lesser extend - those special scenarios one could actually consider the "OP" claim being worth further investigation.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

Doesn't this underscore the need for these kinds of mechs to be escorted by others better able to repel the light mech?

It underscores that 1 vs 1 scenarios are bad when trying to show the power of a particlar build for a game where 1 vs 1 is a special case ... otherwise one is falling straight into the "special case pleading" fallacy.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

From what I understand, the majority of the Cauldron does not see it the same way that DATA does.

And I tend to be glad about that

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 24 February 2022 - 12:34 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Der Geisterbaer, on 24 February 2022 - 09:47 AM, said:

Unfortunately there are so many things wrong with the stated premises both in terms of systematic approach as well as actual execution in the video that - at least to me - it ends up being more of a waste time both on D A T A's and Bowser's end as well as my end when watching it.

Speaking of which, while I love D A T A's vids and am a subscriber, I really wish we'd stop talking about them as evidence or proof of anything. Whatever he can do in any given mech, 80% of the population will not be able to do, and the next 19.99% won't be able to do it nearly as well.

All we're proving is that D A T A is excellent in a dire whale, or a piranha, or a lolcust, or a myst lynx, or... we're not proving that any one of these chassis or builds needs nerfed so much as we're just watching one of the best players in the game do what he does.

EDIT... although he did convince me that UAC/5's have been over-buffed by this latest patch. OMG

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 24 February 2022 - 10:01 AM.

[Cherge]

haha yeah lights are so op, that's why they account for 5% of the mechs in games

let's just nerf them to dirt and make it 0%, to make OP happy

[knight-of-ni]

Der Geisterbaer, on 24 February 2022 - 09:47 AM, said:

[All the points you made]

Yes, we both certainly agree on this topic, including how to properly interpret the videos in question.

I wrote the questions, already having an answer in mind. By framing the argument as a series of questions, the intent was to get others to think through the claim being made, much like what you did.

[Red Potato Standing By]

I dunno, short range builds should have a advantage over long ranged builds when in close fighting like the video. I would be curious if the results would be the same if the assault or heavy had a brawl build as well ( or the light also had a long range build)

[Meep Meep]

Lights ~can~ be op in a good to great players hands for sure. But in the hands of an average to bad player which is the overwhelming majority of the player base? They die in a fire typically with sub 200 damage. Its not even all lights just a certain few than can fit the new ankle biter meta of hmg and pulse and are reasonably mobile. Also if lights are so op why are they not in every quick play match? I played most of prime time into the late night yesterday and was often the only light in a given match and maybe once every 4 or 5 matches there would be a light lance that sometimes dominated and sometimes got vaporized. Is this a tier 1 issue as tier 2 and below don't seem to have this so called plague of op lights nomnoming everything is sight.

[Bamboozle Gold]

On average, even in the hands of the best players, lights perform worse than assaults. You can calculate the relative strengths using data PGI provides here: https://mwomercs.com...le/leaderboards or you can see my post on the previous page. If you disagree with this please back up your claims with data, not DATA.

Does this mean all light mechs are balanced? No. Does this mean light mechs are fun to play against? No.

If you want to contribute to making MWO a good game you can make constructive suggestions for adjusting the specific chassis and mechanics that have issues. If you want to spout diatribe about how wrong it's that a 20 tonner can kill a 100 tonner you can do that but it won't help improve the game.

[Curccu]

Bamboozle Gold, on 25 February 2022 - 01:03 AM, said:

Does this mean all light mechs are balanced? No. Does this mean light mechs are fun to play against? No.

Indeed buff lights! I think lights are fun to play against... noobs get popped in 1 or 2 shots and against good players you really have to work... challenge your skills to be able to defeat your enemy = fun.

Bamboozle Gold, on 25 February 2022 - 01:03 AM, said:

If you want to spout diatribe about how wrong it's that a 20 tonner can kill a 100 tonner you can do that but it won't help improve the game.

Imo that kind of thinking (that something should be able to think something because smaller etc.) is failure already from quickplay balance point of view. 1 player = 1 mech, that is what everyone gets for each game... all of the players should be able to perform as good as their skill allows and performance shouldn't be dramatically boosted by just taking more tons.

[Darian DelFord]

I'll just leave these here on how to kill a light, and think they are OP.







Me in an assault (which I rarely play)




AND the real reason for most of these threads.... on both sides of the fence

Edited by Darian DelFord, 25 February 2022 - 07:49 AM.

[Dogstar]

D A T A, on 24 February 2022 - 07:24 AM, said:

bad try, these forums are flooded by light mech fanboys, the true mwo fanbase actually rage quit the game because of lights op....but apparently they are still active on youtube

I hope you're trying to be funny because as a member of the Cauldron we are expecting you to be have a deep understanding of the game, rather than the shallow 'lights are OP', 'LRMS are OP' rubbish we see here day in and day out.

knight-of-ni, on 24 February 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

No matter what side of this issue you fall on, I’d recommend we all watch DATA’s videos.

His videos, like his opinions, appear to be highly selective and highly biased. Honestly I have no idea why he is anywhere near a balancing decision with the attitude he displays on this forum

Edited by Dogstar, 25 February 2022 - 08:37 AM.

[Dr Wubs]

D O Z E R, on 23 February 2022 - 08:40 PM, said:

Actually, I made this post to invite contrary thoughts and discussion. The more ideas the better! There have already been some worthy suggestions.... If it is a matter of my skill I offer to prove otherwise.

Thanks for trolling!

So, it's all about your skill, but you're here sobbing about lights.

[Curccu]

Dogstar, on 25 February 2022 - 08:33 AM, said:

I hope you're trying to be funny because as a member of the Cauldron we are expecting you to be have a deep understanding of the game, rather than the shallow 'lights are OP', 'LRMS are OP' rubbish we see here day in and day out.

He has deep understanding by his opinion what game should be is extremely biased towards his favorite long range meta in assaults.

Dogstar, on 25 February 2022 - 08:33 AM, said:

His videos, like his opinions, appear to be highly selective and highly biased. Honestly I have no idea why he is anywhere near a balancing decision with the attitude he displays on this forum

Good thing Cauldron is democracy and he gets voted time often.

[Weeny Machine]

I just come from a match were a Kit Fox waddled and jumped a bit through the middle of 3 of our assaults and they hardly hit it and when they sprayed lasers across the whole mech (I honestly don't want to see them near a pissoir - at least I don't want to clean THAT toilet). I mean, a frikkin Kit Fox, not a Flea or PIR. Of course people with that aim who sit in clumsy assaults thinking "moar gunz!11" regard lights as op.

Some selected videos don't say anything either nor that a few good pilots can do astonishing feats with lights. Just look at the numbers from Jarl or the statistics from the game itself. Of course I don't want to say that those are the whole truth but they give a better insight than a selected video.

But for the sake of the argument explain to me when light mechs are that op...
1. why are they hardly played - after all a hallmark of something being op is that it performs oustandingly and that regularly
2. why are their statistics signifcantly worse than other classes

Dogstar, on 25 February 2022 - 08:33 AM, said:

His videos, like his opinions, appear to be highly selective and highly biased. Honestly I have no idea why he is anywhere near a balancing decision with the attitude he displays on this forum

Just go into the laser thread and see for yourself.

[caravann]

Increase the bonuses of having heatsinks inside the engine.
They can't mount heatsinks inside the engine.

Light mechs can't mount heatsinks in the engine and heatsinks inside the engine help reducing heat.

Heat is always the limit. The kindly allowing of heatsinks being put outside the engine allowed assault and light to break the barrier of the mech's physical achievement.

Light engine takes up 2 slots which is just the amount of leg space. Light mechs have weak legs but this can be said about assault. At top tier ton assault the legs are the weakest part of the mech. Assault don't use light engines because who want to die by engine meltdown. A mech can survive with no side torso but no mech can survive without legs and this is why light engine should be in a place who isn't protected by some cheap wood armor. Stealth mech already lost space by using it and nobody uses it for anything else than roleplay. For most part, If you use stealth mech just fire at anything that is trying to solo on its own.

[Curccu]

caravann, on 25 February 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Increase the bonuses of having heatsinks inside the engine.
They can't mount heatsinks inside the engine.

Light mechs can't mount heatsinks in the engine and heatsinks inside the engine help reducing heat.

Heat is always the limit. The kindly allowing of heatsinks being put outside the engine allowed assault and light to break the barrier of the mech's physical achievement.

So buff assaults and fast heavies?

Light mechs CAN mount heatsinks in engine, yes that is the point of heatsinks... to reduce heat.

I can almost quarantee that most of the lights are op QQ people mean almost always some kind of machinegun light... heat doesn't affect them at all.

caravann, on 25 February 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Light engine takes up 2 slots which is just the amount of leg space. Light mechs have weak legs but this can be said about assault. At top tier ton assault the legs are the weakest part of the mech.

???

caravann, on 25 February 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Assault don't use light engines because who want to die by engine meltdown. A mech can survive with no side torso but no mech can survive without legs and this is why light engine should be in a place who isn't protected by some cheap wood armor.

a Lot of assaults use LFE. Not really understanding what you are trying to say....

caravann, on 25 February 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Stealth mech already lost space by using it and nobody uses it for anything else than roleplay. For most part, If you use stealth mech just fire at anything that is trying to solo on its own.

Stealth works well on narc lights and gauss mechs

[LordNothing]

Darian DelFord, on 25 February 2022 - 07:43 AM, said:

I'll just leave these here on how to kill a light, and think they are OP.







Me in an assault (which I rarely play)




AND the real reason for most of these threads.... on both sides of the fence

pay close attention to the guy in the second video, notice that hes not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. he custs his throttle so he can aim nice and clean without all the terrain throwing off your shot.

[foamyesque]

Curccu, on 25 February 2022 - 12:07 PM, said:

I can almost quarantee that most of the lights are op QQ people mean almost always some kind of machinegun light... heat doesn't affect them at all.

MG lights are annoying but personally I've found the two kinds of lights that irritate me the most, by far, are the all-in laser-alpha builds (think the lasvom Piranha) and the turbo long-range pokers who can be back in cover almost instantly, which makes finding the source of the fire a hassle.

If I was going to change anything I wouldn't touch the light class at all, I'd just increase the downward pitch limit of mechs across the board so that you can actually frigging see your feet.

[Nightbird]

Why not just remove all lights from the game? So assault pilots can complain about mediums instead.