51 replies to this topic

[D o z e r]

Honestly, i find this demeaning. I am trying to express a legit concern as a dedicated supporting member of the community. I have pledged a month of my time to provide metrics that might move the discussion forward. It is in everyone's interest to have a more balanced and welcoming game... that is existential. All i get from this is I am stupid for trying and DATA is stupid for being in the minority.

Dogstar, on 25 February 2022 - 08:33 AM, said:

I hope you're trying to be funny because as a member of the Cauldron we are expecting you to be have a deep understanding of the game, rather than the shallow 'lights are OP', 'LRMS are OP' rubbish we see here day in and day out.



His videos, like his opinions, appear to be highly selective and highly biased. Honestly I have no idea why he is anywhere near a balancing decision with the attitude he displays on this forum

[Curccu]

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

Honestly, i find this demeaning. I am trying to express a legit concern as a dedicated supporting member of the community. I have pledged a month of my time to provide metrics that might move the discussion forward. It is in everyone's interest to have a more balanced and welcoming game... that is existential. All i get from this is I am stupid for trying and DATA is stupid for being in the minority.

Hey play that one month lights only and please do not play just 1 chassis and type of light... play Piranha, Flea, Jenner, Spider, Cougar, Osiris etc.
Then share your findings are lights OP, is it easy to carry a game in those.

Data is heavily biased towards his long range style of play and cuddly assaults and that video doesn't show much at all.

[Der Geisterbaer]

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

Honestly, i find this demeaning.

Honestly? No, the demeaning part is you painting yourself as a "victim" here.

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

I am trying to express a legit concern as a dedicated supporting member of the community.

The problem being that you claim that there is a "legit" concern which quite obviously quite a lot of people do not agree with. To make it worse you chose to create yet another thread then don't quite get the answers you like and now paint yourself as a victim as well as deliver an underhanded insult where you are "a dedicated supporting member of the community" while - by implication - the rest of the people that don't subscribe to your POV aren't?!

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

I have pledged a month of my time to provide metrics that might move the discussion forward.

So stop playing the victim card and wait till you actually have those metrics ... regardless of how flawed those are going to be.

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

It is in everyone's interest to have a more balanced and welcoming game... that is existential.

And yet - according to the opinion of quite a lot of people - you're actively trying to "balance" against mechs in a weight class that already - by accessible statistics - sees the least playtime and has the lowest overall performance. That kind of behaviour looks both dishonest and selfserving and as such gets you the responses that you now consider to be demeaning.

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

All i get from this is I am stupid for trying

Nobody in here called you stupid.

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

and DATA is stupid for being in the minority.

Nobody called him stupid either but some have expressed their concerns about the overall relevance, the validity, the honesty and the methodology of D A T A's attempts to "prove" things and his rather obvious bias towards his own preferred gameplay style which can obviously raise at least some questions whether or not it actually is a good thing to have someone like that in an entity like the Cauldron "just because he is extremely skilled at playing this game". That however is a discussion that has to be lead within the Cauldron itself not here in your own variant of "Lights are OP ... nerf" thread.

TL:DR; With playing the victim card like you just did you've actually caused more damage in terms of loss of respect from others and your own dignity than anything others have written so far (regardless harsh it may have sounded to you). So you have been demeaning to yourself much more than anyone else

[D o z e r]

Can the trolls please stop personalizing this?

Let's have an earnest discussion about wether the DPS and tankiness of some lights is OP or not. I have already committed to a particular test (and good on you Curccu - I promise to play a variety of lights).

Call me a "victim" or a low skill player or whatever you like. This game is great and deserves an honest accounting. The reality of OP lights has alienated a lot of folks I know, obviously including myself. Here, I'm not trying to do anything other than have a conversation - but will not hesitate to call out personal attacks/dismissals.

It says a lot more about others than myself that I am lambasted for trying to have a discussion about this.

Anyways, this is my last post until I finish the month. Troll me all you want, the numbers will speak for themselves. I will report back after playing lights for only a month, and hopefully the numbers do not evoke such a toxic response.

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 February 2022 - 12:28 AM, said:

Honestly? No, the demeaning part is you painting yourself as a "victim" here.



The problem being that you claim that there is a "legit" concern which quite obviously quite a lot of people do not agree with. To make it worse you chose to create yet another thread then don't quite get the answers you like and now paint yourself as a victim as well as deliver an underhanded insult where you are "a dedicated supporting member of the community" while - by implication - the rest of the people that don't subscribe to your POV aren't?!



So stop playing the victim card and wait till you actually have those metrics ... regardless of how flawed those are going to be.



And yet - according to the opinion of quite a lot of people - you're actively trying to "balance" against mechs in a weight class that already - by accessible statistics - sees the least playtime and has the lowest overall performance. That kind of behaviour looks both dishonest and selfserving and as such gets you the responses that you now consider to be demeaning.



Nobody in here called you stupid.



Nobody called him stupid either but some have expressed their concerns about the overall relevance, the validity, the honesty and the methodology of D A T A's attempts to "prove" things and his rather obvious bias towards his own preferred gameplay style which can obviously raise at least some questions whether or not it actually is a good thing to have someone like that in an entity like the Cauldron "just because he is extremely skilled at playing this game". That however is a discussion that has to be lead within the Cauldron itself not here in your own variant of "Lights are OP ... nerf" thread.

TL:DR; With playing the victim card like you just did you've actually caused more damage in terms of loss of respect from others and your own dignity than anything others have written so far (regardless harsh it may have sounded to you). So you have been demeaning to yourself much more than anyone else

Edited by D O Z E R, 26 February 2022 - 12:55 AM.

[caravann]

Curccu, on 25 February 2022 - 12:07 PM, said:

So buff assaults and fast heavies?

Light mechs CAN mount heatsinks in engine, yes that is the point of heatsinks... to reduce heat.

I can almost quarantee that most of the lights are op QQ people mean almost always some kind of machinegun light... heat doesn't affect them at all.


???


a Lot of assaults use LFE. Not really understanding what you are trying to say....




Stealth works well on narc lights and gauss mechs

Yes but not all can do it and most of them can't put all of thrm inside the engine and no.

it won't buff the heavy and assault because those assault who really use heatsinks have a lot of them that they're unable to carry all of them inside the engine.

Light engine in the leg enforce light mechs to use XL engines and we remove , (soft lock) light engines away from light mechs.
Being able to use machine guns yes, but then we might as well remove the light mech all together if that's your complain.

It's to make sure that light mech are stick in place of the role. The mechs who have heatsinks outside the engine just like assault laser vomits gets away with just having the space to put extra heatsinks. The second best laser vomit is a heavy and what would happen if we put a stop sign and said: sorry but your heatsinks need to be put inside the engine to be efficient.

Fast heavies or let's call it; fast in general for anything that goes around 80kph for both assault and heavy are the least competitive of all mechs available with the exception of what the cauldron changed to make them better by manipulation of the numbers. This is why the orion 2c got a buff. Sure buff all the way and continue the powercreep hyperhole even deeper. Next update is surely going to make all assault skip heat all together to balance the heat neutral machineguns.

[Sjorpha]

So I watched DATAs assault vs lights "test" and I'm honestly baffled at how anyone could look at those fights as evidence of lights being OP.

There isn't a single fight in that video that the light should lose from a balancing viewpoint. Hot running long or midrange slow mechs built for poking at a distance, and they are caught alone by a light brawler built exactly for that kind of situation. Of course the light wins, just like it should.

If light brawlers shouldn't win those fights then what fights should they win? If they don't have the upper hand in their own preferred range against a longer ranged build caught alone then when exactly should they have the upper hand?

The mist lynx in the test is optimised for 1v1 brawling, so why are the tests not against heavier builds that are also optimised for 1v1 brawling? Perhaps for the same reason lights never dominated any division in Solaris where there is heavier mechs?

I think D O Z E Rs offer to play lights for a month to create comparative data with his performance in assaults is kind of admirable, but unfortunately that is not the kind of data you need to prove lights are OP.

To prove lights are OP you need the actual global statistics on light performance to change, in other words you need lights to actually overperform on average across the player base. There is no threshold of personal data, screenshots, videos or anything else anecdotal that would constitute a tipping point for this argument.

What you might be able to do with anecdotal data is argue that certain situations are "unfun" gameplay. That might be legitimate if a lot of people feel bad about those situations, but there is no point in trying to present it as a balance argument.

So let's say D O Z E R returns with a month of data showing he's performing better in lights than he ever did in assaults, what would that prove? Why would it not be convincing for the claim that lights are OP? Well, since we also have data that lights are performing worse than assaults globally, DOZERs personal data would only prove that he is personally good in lights or in some specific lights, nothing more.

I respect the attempt at discussion and the serious concerns, but the problem is that the basis you would need for this argument just isn't there. You don't need arguments, personal data or videos. You need the global statistics, the ones everyone can look at at any time, to actually be on your side of the argument. And they simply aren't on your side right now, there really isn't much else to say beyond that.

[Curccu]

caravann, on 26 February 2022 - 01:53 AM, said:

Yes but not all can do it and most of them can't put all of thrm inside the engine and no.

it won't buff the heavy and assault because those assault who really use heatsinks have a lot of them that they're unable to carry all of them inside the engine.

But assaults and fast heavies are the only ones that REALLY can put more than 2 extra DHS in engine, not many lights can put any extra DHS in engine (requires 275 rated engine) and only few can put two extra HS in engine. Instead kodiaks, gargoyles, marauder IICs can put 6 so this would mostly buff assaults.

caravann, on 26 February 2022 - 01:53 AM, said:

Light engine in the leg enforce light mechs to use XL engines and we remove , (soft lock) light engines away from light mechs.
Being able to use machine guns yes, but then we might as well remove the light mech all together if that's your complain.

Lights mechs cannot afford to use LFE because it's too heavy compared to speed it gives and speed is life for most lights.
So my complaint is that most lights are way too WEAK, buff them!

caravann, on 26 February 2022 - 01:53 AM, said:

Fast heavies or let's call it; fast in general for anything that goes around 80kph for both assault and heavy are the least competitive of all mechs available with the exception of what the cauldron changed to make them better by manipulation of the numbers.

Mad Cat, Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer all go over 80... and are pretty good.

[foamyesque]

D O Z E R, on 25 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

Honestly, i find this demeaning. I am trying to express a legit concern as a dedicated supporting member of the community. I have pledged a month of my time to provide metrics that might move the discussion forward. It is in everyone's interest to have a more balanced and welcoming game... that is existential. All i get from this is I am stupid for trying and DATA is stupid for being in the minority.

FWIW I think you're doing a good thing.

[knight-of-ni]

Sjorpha, on 26 February 2022 - 02:17 AM, said:

So I watched DATAs assault vs lights "test" and I'm honestly baffled at how anyone could look at those fights as evidence of lights being OP.

Agreed. I find his videos quite enjoyable to watch. However, what he is posting as evidence of lights being OP works against his argument, in my opinion. I think his videos clearly show he himself is OP, whatever he is piloting, even when 1v1 against another top tier player.

Sjorpha, on 26 February 2022 - 02:17 AM, said:

So let's say D O Z E R returns with a month of data showing he's performing better in lights than he ever did in assaults, what would that prove? Why would it not be convincing for the claim that lights are OP? Well, since we also have data that lights are performing worse than assaults globally, DOZERs personal data would only prove that he is personally good in lights or in some specific lights, nothing more.

I respect the attempt at discussion and the serious concerns, but the problem is that the basis you would need for this argument just isn't there. You don't need arguments, personal data or videos. You need the global statistics, the ones everyone can look at at any time, to actually be on your side of the argument. And they simply aren't on your side right now, there really isn't much else to say beyond that.

Generating personal statistics and videos is a good first step for those on the other side of the argument. I completely agree that it still would not prove, in any objective sense, that light mechs are OP.

What one could do is use it as training material, to teach others. If, like I have heard a certain someone say in his videos, even a monkey can do this, then please train us monkeys to do this.

If a sufficient number of players became skilled in this manner, that would potentially create the global statistics needed to convince others.

In my opinion, going down this path will show that lights are in fact not OP. It would have happened already on its own, without special training, if this were the case.

I am certainly willing to be wrong, as we all should be. Do the science and follow the evidence where it leads. Even if one reaches the opposite conclusion of what one set out to prove, you have come closer to objective truth, and that is what we should all really be striving for.

[CFC Conky]

Sjorpha, on 26 February 2022 - 02:17 AM, said:

So I watched DATAs assault vs lights "test" and I'm honestly baffled at how anyone could look at those fights as evidence of lights being OP.

There isn't a single fight in that video that the light should lose from a balancing viewpoint. Hot running long or midrange slow mechs built for poking at a distance, and they are caught alone by a light brawler built exactly for that kind of situation. Of course the light wins, just like it should.

If light brawlers shouldn't win those fights then what fights should they win? If they don't have the upper hand in their own preferred range against a longer ranged build caught alone then when exactly should they have the upper hand?

The mist lynx in the test is optimised for 1v1 brawling, so why are the tests not against heavier builds that are also optimised for 1v1 brawling? Perhaps for the same reason lights never dominated any division in Solaris where there is heavier mechs?

...

I watch DATA's videos as well and I find them instructive for 'how' to fight in light mechs more than for the builds themselves. I've tried some of his builds and I do get some stellar matches but also a lot of sub-100 damage games that are over in under three minutes .

What I've noticed is that he often goes up against some pretty ineffective opponents who either can't aim for beans or ignore him while he grinds away at them with machine guns and/or spls. When I encounter those types of opponents I can do pretty well too but by no means does this happen every match.

I don't know how cherry-picked DATA's matches are, but one thing for sure is that I pay close attention to how he maneuvers his rides and how he times his attacks.


Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 26 February 2022 - 10:26 AM.

[Sjorpha]

CFC Conky, on 26 February 2022 - 10:25 AM, said:

I watch DATA's videos as well and I find them instructive for 'how' to fight in light mechs more than for the builds themselves. I've tried some of his builds and I do get some stellar matches but also a lot of sub-100 damage games that are over in under three minutes .

What I've noticed is that he often goes up against some pretty ineffective opponents who either can't aim for beans or ignore him while he grinds away at them with machine guns and/or spls. When I encounter those types of opponents I can do pretty well too but by no means does this happen every match.

I don't know how cherry-picked DATA's matches are, but one thing for sure is that I pay close attention to how he maneuvers his rides and how he times his attacks.

He's very good. And for the most part his videos on different topics, such as mech reviews and build recommendations, are very good too. Even some of his balancing comments seem on point.

So I'm talking about that specific video where he set out to engineer "tests" that in his view show that lights are OP (or that the mist lynx specifically is OP). And it that video every single mech he fights is a long or midrange poker that it seems obvious any light brawler build should beat in a duel.

[Weeny Machine]

Why is there even such a discussion?

1. Metrics
They are here across all tiers. Just look up Jarl or the data on the season page. Lights are underperforming

2. The video(s)
As was already saind: When a lone long range poke assault faces a brawler light in an artifcial situation (no mates, no lrm help nearby etc) then obviously everything is staked against the assault. If you still argue that the light shouldn't win or at least have a high chance of winning than you basically ask for autowins of assaults vs. lights.
Please repeat the test with streaks or dual heavy gauss

3. Source of complaints
Why are faction players complaining? Those who obviously have transformed QP into a kind of FP. Could it be that this "op light mech class" annoys them from their merry whack-a-mole trench warfare enjoyment? Honest question.

That people who learn the ropes of the game and have trouble shooting a flea or PIR experience them as OP I can understand.

4. The "op light mech class"
Mechs like Wolfhounds, Spiders, Ravens, Jenners (aka the walking center torso) etc are far from op. Quite the opposite, the 35t mechs are frikkin easy to hit and in the current meta with sick alphas from laser vomit one mistake is enough to open a torso. A dual heavy gauss can, if the light mech is unlucky cripple or destroy him outright. Streaks completely negate their only defense: speed. Weird, I haven't heard an assault jockey complain about that. Double standards galore...

The few chassis who can really overperform in certain situations. like a PIR, pay for it with range penalty and being really fragile and one good salvo can seal its fate right away....that is if you use ppd weapons.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 26 February 2022 - 04:10 PM.