110 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

What would "fix" lights is a rescale so they are slightly larger, and an engine nerf so they go accurate light mech speeds like the table top except the piranha thats just crazy town speeds everywhere.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 07 March 2022 - 05:08 AM.

[Curccu]

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

What would "fix" lights is a rescale so they are slightly larger, and an engine nerf so they go accurate light mech speeds like the table top except the piranha thats just crazy town speeds everywhere.

and they would be absolutely obsolete at that point and no one would play them. There is no battlevalue in this game to balance teams.
You can have almost 3 piranhas for 1 Direwolf in BT and I would guesstimate that dire wouldn't have eez win over those?

[Weeny Machine]

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

What would "fix" lights is a rescale so they are slightly larger, and an engine nerf so they go accurate light mech speeds like the table top except the piranha thats just crazy town speeds everywhere.

You want to make 35t mechs even larger as well?! Sorry, but if you cannot hit one of the 35t mechs then the problem is certainly not the mech class (the barn door Jenner IIC comes to mind). If you had said: the 20t mechs a tad larger, the 35t back to the size before re-scaling and remove some armour quirks then I would have agreed with you.

The speed reduction would certainly kill the whole class for good.
Funny, though, that assaults and heavies can have higher engine ratings than in the TT...but you want to keep those. Double standards galore...

Edited by Weeny Machine, 07 March 2022 - 06:01 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Sorry, I cannot wrap my head around this "accurate light mech speeds"-term. What's that? What's the correct light mech speed? The 32 kph of an Urbie, the 64 kph of a Panther, the 97 kph of a firestarter, the 129 kph of a Locust or the 145 kph of a Piranha?

[Weeny Machine]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 07 March 2022 - 06:07 AM, said:

Sorry, I cannot wrap my head around this "accurate light mech speeds"-term. What's that? What's the correct light mech speed? The 32 kph of an Urbie, the 64 kph of a Panther, the 97 kph of a firestarter, the 129 kph of a Locust or the 145 kph of a Piranha?

Exactly that. A Panther would have a top speed of 64.8 km/h for example

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 07 March 2022 - 05:18 AM, said:

and they would be absolutely obsolete at that point and no one would play them. There is no battlevalue in this game to balance teams.
You can have almost 3 piranhas for 1 Direwolf in BT and I would guesstimate that dire wouldn't have eez win over those?

Yeah that's his point. He even put "fix" in quotes. His "fix" for lights is to nerf them straight into hell. Because he doesn't like them. Because he has trouble shooting them.

"Pls nerf what I dont like and buff what I like, but only buff what I like if it cant be used to kill me." in other words.

[MyriadDigits]

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

engine nerf

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

accurate light mech speeds like the table top

Pick one. Lights are using the same engine formula as every other weight class. (T/E)*16.2 where T is Tonnage and E is Engine Rating. A Locust with a 180 goes precisely as fast as a Cicada with a 360, and as fast as a Dragon with a mythical 540 rated engine.

Engine weights are also accurate to TT values. Also the Firemoth exists.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MyriadDigits said:

Pick one.

Why would he? He'll flip flop between whatever suits his personal agenda based on his limited knowledge and understanding of "the rules"

MyriadDigits said:

Lights are using the same engine formula as every other weight class. (T/E)*16.2 where T is Tonnage and E is Engine Rating. A Locust with a 180 goes precisely as fast as a Cicada with a 360, and as fast as a Dragon with a mythical 540 rated engine.

But (most) canon Locust variants only move at 129.6 km/h based on their canon game stats => Apart from the rescale idea his demand is along the lines of nerfing the (max) engine (rating) to 160 on those chassis as this would reduce them to (supposedly) "accurate table top speeds" ... and of course the speed tweak skill nodes must - by implication - also be nerfed for Lights (but clearly not his beloved assault mechs).

Unfortunately his desires in that regard already fail him with his primary bogeymen mechs - the PIRs - that in canon come with 151.2 km/h speeds out of the box

MyriadDigits said:

Also the Firemoth exists.

Oh what a glorious thing it would be to have Fire Moths in this game even without MASC - particularly the K variant with whatever PGI would have to provide as a replacement for its two B pods ... his whining would become deafening.

[pbiggz]

tldr "accurate light mech speed" is slow enough that samial can shoot them. That's what that term means in this context.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

What would "fix" lights is a rescale so they are slightly larger, ...

Do not be shy with your "slightly larger".

You have already told us how "slightly larger" you would like the light 'Mechs in MWO to be:

Nomad Tech, on 03 December 2021 - 04:03 AM, said:

Lights can get the same as mediums and some heavies and Assaults.

Nomad Tech, on 07 March 2022 - 05:07 AM, said:

... and an engine nerf so they go accurate light mech speeds like the table top except the piranha thats just crazy town speeds everywhere.

So all other BattleMechs in MWO can equip larger engines to go faster than in the tabletop BattleTech game, but the light 'Mechs in MWO must keep their default tabletop speed? Seriously?

• UrbanMech "running" 32.4 km/h while being as big as Atlas?
  
• Panther moving 64.8 km/h while being as tall as Black Knight? Do you think that it would be a viable light 'Mech in MWO?
  
• Wolfhound keeping its running speed 97 km/h while being as big as Executioner?

I really do not think that any MWO player would use your new "light 'Mechs" that would be as big as assault 'Mechs, while keeping their light paper-thin armour; on top of that those "light 'Mechs" also being slow and with the loadout of a light 'Mech.

[An6ryMan69]

The game developers try to balance all mechs in this game so that there are no mech classes, or individual mechs, that are just garbage. If they didn't we would have 998 mechs available to play and less than 50 ever actually being played by anyone, and serious players would probably only ever play half a dozen specific mech variants.

Like lots of players I used to get pissed off at watching a light kill an assault in a 1-1 fight; I see now that I was just used to other Battletech based games where I could take my Annihilator out and literally kill a company of light mechs. Seeing the little guys killing mechs five times their size was just insane in my brain, simple as that.

But if MWO was like that we would honestly be much worse off.

I have come to really appreciate that I can actually pick any mech there is, and with some good decision making in the mechlab, and some skill and practice, I can go out and have a good time and be competitive. That's a good thing.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 07 March 2022 - 10:46 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

An6ryMan69, on 07 March 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

The game developers try to balance all mechs in this game so that there are no mech classes, or individual mechs, that are just garbage. If they didn't we would have 998 mechs available to play and less than 50 ever actually being played by anyone, and serious players would probably only ever play half a dozen specific mech variants.

Like lots of players I used to get pissed off at watching a light kill an assault in a 1-1 fight; I see now that I was just used to other Battletech based games where I could take my Annihilator out and literally kill a company of light mechs. Seeing the little guys killing mechs five times their size was just insane in my brain, simple as that.

But if MWO was like that we would honestly be much worse off.

I have come to really appreciate that I can actually pick any mech there is, and with some good decision making in the mechlab, and some skill and practice, I can go out and have a good time and be competitive. That's a good thing.

well written and good points. yet, going by your forumname:
NOT ANGRY ENOUGH!

[Blood Rose]

Seelenlos, on 04 March 2022 - 09:05 AM, said:

By the Tech-Rules the Damage Machine-Gun do are applied in 1 turn of 1 minutes.

Actually, vehicle grade Machineguns do 2 points of damage per shot, 1 shot per turn unless your using the MG rapid fire rules in which case its D6. Each turn is 10 seconds.

So a vanilla MG in tabletop can do between 2 and 12 points of damage across 10 seconds in tabletop.

A LMG can do between 1 and 6 and a HMG between 3 and 18.

Before you cite the tabletop rules, try reading them.

[edit]

To further this, a Piranha mounts, IIRC, 8 MG's. Using the rapid fire rules thats a potential for between 16 and 96 damage across 10 seconds. Average of 43 damage. In one 10 second turn.
Not so "unrealistic" or "OP" now is it?

Edited by Blood Rose, 07 March 2022 - 01:37 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Blood Rose, on 07 March 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Actually, vehicle grade Machineguns do 2 points of damage per shot, 1 shot per turn unless your using the MG rapid fire rules in which case its D6. Each turn is 10 seconds.

Both the rapid fire rules (extended ruleset that has to be agreed upon) and the 10 seconds per combat turn (which affects all weapons equally and creates signficantly lower raw DPS values in table top) are actually irrelevant for the matter at hand. The really important part is the aspect of 2 damage points - just like a singular short range missile and (more importantly) an AC/2.

So seeing equal damage (and dps) for AC/2 and machine gun in table top to 0.1damage per 0.1s (or 1 damage per second) vs. 2 damage per 0.72 seconds (for 2.78 damage per second) is the far more "interesting" thing to note whenever someone cries about "over powered machine guns in MW:O"

As for the OP's ramblings about ammo itself: 1 ton of machine gun ammo in table top has a damage potential of 2*200 = 400 damage points whereas it has only 2000*0.1 = 200 in MW:O on anything that is not specifically skilled and/or quirked with regards to machine gun ammo

=> So if our OP actually knew what he was talking about he'd have to advocate for something like 0.278 damage per 0.1s (to match the 2.78 dps of an AC/2) and an ammo decrease to about 1440 shots per ton to match table top values in relative terms. With those numbers however the PIR-1 wouldn't just kill an assault in about 4.5 seconds after sneaking up from behind but chew through center torsos from head on in the exact same 4.5 seconds (not to mention how much of an actual "ankle biter" that shreds legs it would become).

TL;DR until here: People like the OP and Nomad Tech with their very remote knowledge about the table top should most definitely stop trying to argue based on said game even when ignoring the fact that a table top game and a fps pc game are entirely different things.

The rest of this posting contains minor corrections / considerations regarding the PIR-1 in table top which is not that important to the topic itself and thus only in a smaller font

Blood Rose, on 07 March 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

[edit]

To further this, a Piranha mounts, IIRC, 8 MG's.

The PIR-1 in canon configuration mounts 12 machine guns, 2 C-ER-ML and 1 C-ER-SL

Blood Rose, on 07 March 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Using the rapid fire rules thats a potential for between 16 and 96 damage across 10 seconds.

So it's actually 24 to 144 damage via rapid fire rules but that would actually instantly melt the mech because this would create 72 heat (without the lasers) and consume 72 of its 200 shots

Blood Rose, on 07 March 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Average of 43 damage.

I'm not sure how you calculated those 43 points on average because with 8 machine guns you'd get 8d6 with which you'll typically average something between 24 and 32 (=48 and 64 damage). With the actual 12 machine guns this goes up to something between 36 and 48 for 72 and 96 damage respectively but still pretty much instantly melting your mech. In other words: Even if you switch the PIR-1s default single heatsinks to double ones you'll rarely use rapid fire rules for more than 3 to 4 of its 12 machine guns and even then you'll actually be hoping not to get above average rolls.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 07 March 2022 - 03:13 PM.

[Blood Rose]

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 March 2022 - 03:03 PM, said:

Both the rapid fire rules (extended ruleset that has to be agreed upon) and the 10 seconds per combat turn (which affects all weapons equally and creates signficantly lower raw DPS values in table top) are actually irrelevant for the matter at hand. The really important part is the aspect of 2 damage points - just like a singular short range missile and (more importantly) an AC/2.

So seeing equal damage (and dps) for AC/2 and machine gun in table top to 0.1damage per 0.1s (or 1 damage per second) vs. 2 damage per 0.72 seconds (for 2.78 damage per second) is the far more "interesting" thing to note whenever someone cries about "over powered machine guns in MW:O"

As for the OP's ramblings about ammo itself: 1 ton of machine gun ammo in table top has a damage potential of 2*200 = 400 damage points whereas it has only 2000*0.1 = 200 in MW:O on anything that is not specifically skilled and/or quirked with regards to machine gun ammo

=> So if our OP actually knew what he was talking about he'd have to advocate for something like 0.278 damage per 0.1s (to match the 2.78 dps of an AC/2) and an ammo decrease to about 1440 shots per ton to match table top values in relative terms. With those numbers however the PIR-1 wouldn't just kill an assault in about 4.5 seconds after sneaking up from behind but chew through center torsos from head on in the exact same 4.5 seconds (not to mention how much of an actual "ankle biter" that shreds legs it would become).

TL;DR until here: People like the OP and Nomad Tech with their very remote knowledge about the table top should most definitely stop trying to argue based on said game even when ignoring the fact that a table top game and a fps pc game are entirely different things.

The rest of this posting contains minor corrections / considerations regarding the PIR-1 in table top which is not that important to the topic itself and thus only in a smaller font



The PIR-1 in canon configuration mounts 12 machine guns, 2 C-ER-ML and 1 C-ER-SL



So it's actually 24 to 144 damage via rapid fire rules but that would actually instantly melt the mech because this would create 72 heat (without the lasers) and consume 72 of its 200 shots




I'm not sure how you calculated those 43 points on average because with 8 machine guns you'd get 8d6 with which you'll typically average something between 24 and 32 (=48 and 64 damage). With the actual 12 machine guns this goes up to something between 36 and 48 for 72 and 96 damage respectively but still pretty much instantly melting your mech. In other words: Even if you switch the PIR-1s default single heatsinks to double ones you'll rarely use rapid fire rules for more than 3 to 4 of its 12 machine guns and even then you'll actually be hoping not to get above average rolls.

Thanks for correcting me on the Piranha, I couldnt remember how many MG's it carried. But yeah, its actually pretty nasty in TT as well. MG rapid fire should be accounted for too, IMO, as it is an optional mode that represents the MG's firing longer bursts as opposed to a few quick snapped ones.
Interestingly, in the Solaris rules, the MG is one of the few weapons that can fire every turn. Solaris rules are (IIRC, its been a long time) broken down into 2 second segments, and guns have a reload/recharge rate - a number of turns they must wait between firing. The MG is one of the few guns that can keep firing every turn, making it hilariously powerful on a small, fast, agile, machine that can get in close.... Hmm, now why does that sound familiar?

You are also sort of correct with the DPS, but as I noted, the TT damage of the MG is actually potentially a lot higher - it should actually out DPS the AC2 and possibly the 5 too. So, for all you Assault pilots who whine about "muh TT stats and rules", feel lucky the Devs have not used TT stats as a hard implementation mark for weaponry - those MG lights would gobble you down.

Oh yeah, and just ignore my weird math - my brains fried from work.

Edited by Blood Rose, 07 March 2022 - 03:51 PM.

[Castigatus]

I would be interested to see how Nomad Tech has come to the conclusions he has since according to Jarls he's only played 37 games, approx 7% of his total matches, in a light mech since December of last year, which was the earliest stats I could access for him. I know this is a point people keep making but if lights are really so OP, you think people would use them far more than they do.


Oh and Seelenos, let me reiterate something you need to pound through that thick skull of yours.

THIS IS NOT THE TABLETOP GAME!!

If you really think coming here and bitching that the online arena shooter, because thats what this game is whether you like it or not, doesn't use the same rules or assumptions as the tabletop game whose IP it is based on is in any way a good or useful idea then you may as well just stop wasting your and everybody else's time and leave now, because you certainly aren't going to get anything else out of this.

As for myself, I'm just going to repeat what most other people have already been saying. Skilled light pilots are a nightmare to deal with if you don't take proper precautions or if they catch you off guard, but that doesn't make lights as a weight class overpowered or deserving of nerfs. Even the chassis certain people claim are problematic, like the PIR-1 or Flea, still fall apart in seconds if they take any serious fire and give little or no margin for error in their piloting.

So watch each others backs, shoot the fish when you can, and don't panic.

Edited by Castigatus, 08 March 2022 - 07:10 AM.

[pattonesque]

Castigatus, on 08 March 2022 - 06:57 AM, said:

I would be interested to see how Nomad Tech has come to the conclusions he has since according to Jarls he's only played 37 games, approx 7% of his total matches, in a light mech since December of last year, which was the earliest stats I could access for him. I know this is a point people keep making but if lights are really so OP, you think people would use them far more than they do.

He doesn't because he's not good enough to do well in a light mech, which would cause in him a cognitive dissonance so extreme that he'd never recover

[Weeny Machine]

@Der Geisterbär, Castigatus, pattonesque

You don't get it. People are NOT playing lights because they are so OP that they are too easy-mode for everyone

[pattonesque]

also another build I saw OP running: Hellspawn with four ER Smalls, two LRM5, a light PPC, and a TAG -- again, a build which tries to do everything and does nothing and would lose to every other properly built mech in the game

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 08 March 2022 - 07:51 AM, said:

also another build I saw OP running: Hellspawn with four ER Smalls, two LRM5, a light PPC, and a TAG -- again, a build which tries to do everything and does nothing and would lose to every other properly built mech in the game

Ugh, yeah, that's pretty bad. Nothing wrong with combining lurms and light peeps, but the TAG is redundant at that point and you should NOT mix small lasers of any kind with LRM's because you can't fire them both at once most of the time. Go Medium lasers instead so you can zap AND whoosh.