29 replies to this topic

[Andrewlik]

Like legitamately, I've been really liking the 8v8 format.

8v8 greatly increases player agency. Counter-scouting that enemy light means alot more.
Winning that clutch 1v1 means alot more. Flanking maneuvers mean alot more, mobility matters alot more, therefore it feels skill matters alot more as you don't have as many teammates to hide behind.

I will agree that groups do definitely break the format, and that tonnage differences you can feel much more, but I've been getting so many more "triangle fights" this way it feels like I actually have an impact and am not just shooting at red boxes all game

[PsionicMantis]

I feel its been hit or miss so far. But that is how 12 v 12 goes too. When a 4 man drops you know its gonna be a bad time. Other than that, i can get behind it.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Andrewlik, on 18 March 2022 - 08:28 AM, said:

Like legitamately, I've been really liking the 8v8 format.

8v8 greatly increases player agency. Counter-scouting that enemy light means alot more.
Winning that clutch 1v1 means alot more. Flanking maneuvers mean alot more, mobility matters alot more, therefore it feels skill matters alot more as you don't have as many teammates to hide behind.

I will agree that groups do definitely break the format, and that tonnage differences you can feel much more, but I've been getting so many more "triangle fights" this way it feels like I actually have an impact and am not just shooting at red boxes all game

I agree. There are less mechs to cover you, so individuals matter more, and specialist builds have it rougher. That last bit is the part I really like.

Groups have an outsized impact, though. I would recommend that anyone finding themselves on the short end of the stick against 4-man teams... instead of quitting, head over to LFG and put together your own 4 man. Its not as good as playing with unit members who are used to working together, but its more communication and tactics and it levels the field nicely.

[Gagis]

I have been enjoying this too.

Edited by Gagis, 18 March 2022 - 09:59 AM.

[LordNothing]

8v8 was awesome. the best way i could explain it, if 12v12 is like being in the army, 8v8 is like being in the marines. in 12v12 you are a lot less important, the team could probibly do without you, its a lot more wash rinse repeat. 8v8 on the other hand gives you more importance to the outcome of the match.

gameplay is more dynamic. taking risks pays out better than it did with 12v12. you try to flank 12v12, you could find yourself floor dirt in no time. 8v8 gives you more duck out potential. coordination has improved as well. the nascar murderball seems to be used with less frequency. the map is less densely populated, giving you better opportunities to sneak around and hit from other positions.

now i dont think 8v8 should outright replace 12v12. but it would be nice if it was an option, say durring week days when the population isnt as good. or during off peak hours. it makes a case for dynamic match sizes. it also adds a lot of variety over the one size fits all system typically in play.

now for the controversial part: it may have improved match making quality. while i made this prediction before i tried it, i feel like the anecdotal evidence matches the prediction. this may be confirmation bias. and it may be because i won more games than i lost yesterday or that i generally had a blast (really, isnt that the only metric that matters). seems like the skill gradients in the match were less steep. never was there a 8-0 stomp. the worst it got was 8-2 and a lot of 8-6 or better occurred. would be nice if pgi shared the hard data they discovered after the test.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 March 2022 - 11:10 AM.

[Bixente Vega]

I like 8v8 too. Every mech counts now, I didn't always get that feel on 12v12.

[CFC Conky]

Andrewlik, on 18 March 2022 - 08:28 AM, said:

Like legitamately, I've been really liking the 8v8 format.

8v8 greatly increases player agency. Counter-scouting that enemy light means alot more.
Winning that clutch 1v1 means alot more. Flanking maneuvers mean alot more, mobility matters alot more, therefore it feels skill matters alot more as you don't have as many teammates to hide behind.

I will agree that groups do definitely break the format, and that tonnage differences you can feel much more, but I've been getting so many more "triangle fights" this way it feels like I actually have an impact and am not just shooting at red boxes all game

Witch!

[PocketYoda]

I always liked it in smaller groups.

[Alexandros]

Better performance on maps, you need to be more alerted now since you matter more than 12v12. Welcome back 8v8 I missed you.

[KaptinOrk]

I finally got the chance to play a few 8v8 drops yesterday and I definitely like it. Games went to the mid-range and brawling stages much quicker than they have recently, the peek/poke stage was there, but it was short and existed only while players were maneuvering into mid range.

Queue times didn't seem particularly shorter to me, they were about average for a Friday night in NA. If anything, I waited much longer to get a game with a medium 'mech, so I decided to drop lights that night. I never saw lights go above single digit percentage.

I did not encounter any obvious 3/4 man groups, but there were games where the tonnage was way out of whack. I mostly dropped light 'mechs last night and there were a couple games where I was the only light in the entire match. I noticed that the games definitely tended to be heavy, the assault and heavy percentages were both in the high 30s and low 40s the few times that I looked.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 19 March 2022 - 08:06 AM.

[ejw0508]

I am so glad 8v8 made it back for a weekend now remove groups and life will be good

[pbiggz]

ejw0508, on 19 March 2022 - 11:17 AM, said:

I am so glad 8v8 made it back for a weekend now remove groups and life will be good

My best match this morning was a loss. It was neck and neck, and there was a 4 man on my team, and we lost, so don't make this garbage argument.

[ejw0508]

Sorry you feel that way but this game started 8v8 and they can keep it that way

[Revis Volek]

pbiggz, on 19 March 2022 - 12:16 PM, said:

My best match this morning was a loss. It was neck and neck, and there was a 4 man on my team, and we lost, so don't make this garbage argument.

Garbage argument? And one match and an anecdotal experience i'snt? lol Just playin devils advocate here but i also agree 4 man group against 8 solos is pretty much as unfair as it gets. 4 man in 12 was obviously less important dont know how you are too blind to see that.

[Ralgas]

Revis Volek, on 19 March 2022 - 04:57 PM, said:

Garbage argument? And one match and an anecdotal experience i'snt? lol Just playin devils advocate here but i also agree 4 man group against 8 solos is pretty much as unfair as it gets. 4 man in 12 was obviously less important dont know how you are too blind to see that.

In all honesty lately it's a 50/50, i've seen just as many drunk/stoned friend groups who are a liability as i have competent clan drops.

You're still right, unrestricted 4 man drops have no place in 8v8, same as we should have no map/mode choice because it's far too easy to game/troll (especially when the 4 mans don't have restrictions).

[pbiggz]

Revis Volek, on 19 March 2022 - 04:57 PM, said:

Garbage argument? And one match and an anecdotal experience i'snt? lol Just playin devils advocate here but i also agree 4 man group against 8 solos is pretty much as unfair as it gets. 4 man in 12 was obviously less important dont know how you are too blind to see that.

I ran more matches that evening, this time with friends. Even split between wins and losses.

A cursory glance at jarls list stats for most users, (especially the ones most vocally opposed to groups/most vocal about how it ruined their match quality) reveals that there really wasn't any significant change in win/loss rates between seasons 46 and 47, when they consolidated the queue.

Additionally i expect a measure that would vastly improve match quality is tightening tier matching back up to 2, rather than 3 (tier 5s only match with 4s, tier 2s match with 1s and 3s). This is a thing you can do when you have more matches going on with the same pool of players. You can be more choosy.

Nuking groups however, effectively soft-bans this game's most active users. We only hit about 1000 concurrent users at peak hours. This is a very sensitive player base that wont take shocks well. Its already dropped to near zero once, and the fact that it came back at all is nothing short of a miracle.

Understand that no other game like MWO actively punishes groups the way people here seem to think we should. Every other game wants more people to play, and the best way to get more people to play is for current players to bring their friends. If you're honestly advocating for nuking groups from the queue, it tells me you don't understand how destructive that policy would be. Im not crystal-balling here, I know this is true because it already happened. Groups were brought back into quick play to maintain the integrity of the queue; like, 6 or 7 mech dads took that to mean they were being personally victimized, and they've screamed so loudly that other people are starting to repeat the same ********. Don't expect me not to push back.

[DaZur]

I don't mean this as a direct slight to anyone....

But it seems the divide between like and don't likes have a lot to do with whether the pilot can stand on their own merit (read: typically wins one-on-ones) and pilot mechs that too can stand on their own merit.

As many know... I like to swim against the meta. Most of my mechs are one-offs and and are truly feast or famine. Thus far my one-offs are struggling in 8v8... Largely because for my success, I need to play off the successes of other pilots. (Yeah, I said it... I'm not a great pilot)

I switched to my run-of-the-mill generalist builds and I've been flourishing. My mediocre skill paired with the right mech for the job manifested in above average results.

Point is... I think there is merit in 8v8 for no other reason than it changes the meta, forces players to adapt and keeps things fresh(er)... Do I want to play nothing but 8v8?... No. But it's a nice change in MHO.

Edited by DaZur, 20 March 2022 - 08:57 AM.

[KodiakGW]

Revis Volek, on 19 March 2022 - 04:57 PM, said:

Garbage argument? And one match and an anecdotal experience i'snt?

Ah, someone who understands the meaning of anecdotal. I've given evidence and had it called anecdotal. Insufficient maybe, but not anecdotal.

pbiggz, on 20 March 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

6 or 7 mech dads took that to mean they were being personally victimized, and they've screamed so loudly that other people are starting to repeat the same ********. Don't expect me not to push back.

Just because someone is pointing out, many times with evidence, that it looks like some people are abusing group tonnage and teaming in the current queue doesn't mean they are acting like victims. One could say that you and a number of others are acting like victims whenever someone points that out. "That has not been my experience" seems to be a fine argument for a handful of people on one side of the argument, but video evidence showing two 99 percentiles running 200 tons and cleaning up a match is dismissed.

I'd also like to ask how you can make an assessment? Just checked the leaderboards and you don't have 10 games this season. Also, Jarl's has you retired since November 2021. Now, before you reply about me not playing this trial, maybe you should see the back on forth I had with Daeron on the Announcement thread. Also note that I said I would play the next test.

Here is what I see. Player numbers were down almost 10K from the May '21 high according to Jarl's. What staff is left taking care of MWO saw that and are trying to find ways to bolster player numbers. They came up with an idea that is not a permanent change to the way you want to play the game. It is only for events, and I'm sure they will also allow plenty of time to play for event rewards in 12v12 queues. They may decide to make tonnage/group size changes to help balance, which would only be for the event queue. Not permanent.

I also see that the leaderboard was at 13316 players at the start of this test. It now is at 14600. A gain of 1284 players. Steam numbers also look to be better that the two weekends prior. Definitely higher than the five days prior. So, not the game killing change a number of vocal people are trying to make it out to be (with anecdotal statements BTW).

I think you should be thankful that they are trying to do something to get disgruntled players back. Because...I hate to tell you...the status quo of keeping things the way they have been for the last 9 month 'ain't working.'

[Knownswift]

"specialist builds have it harder"

lol

Literally ever "specialist" build that doesn't specialize in kitchen sink works exactly the same.

[CFC Conky]

pbiggz, on 20 March 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

…

Additionally i expect a measure that would vastly improve match quality is tightening tier matching back up to 2, rather than 3 (tier 5s only match with 4s, tier 2s match with 1s and 3s). This is a thing you can do when you have more matches going on with the same pool of players. You can be more choosy.

…

This might help except for the fact that groups are not sorted by Tier at this time.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky