101 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Dr Wubs, on 26 March 2022 - 05:36 AM, said:

Are you kidding me?

The most popular maps are the ones where people agree that the battlefield offers balanced fights.

The old HPG's crime afaik was being symmetrical. It was 'fixed' by being made asymmetrical and making massive shelf so that more people can stand around the edge shooting people without getting shot.

Put the old HPG in the rotation and see which one is more popular: the old one or the 'fixed' one.

Moreover, the reason that Alpine doesn't get votes is because it's crap. The fights are crap. People just stand up high and plunk opponents down below. The high places are not equally accessible. One team has a massive advantage.

But oh no, gotta fix the most popular map in the game by making it worse.

Alpine's problem is that there is only one domination circle on it. if they made 3, with corresponding drop points, and you got a random one each time you dropped, people would fight in different areas of that map and you would see its actually a decent map. Its fighting in the same place every time that sucks the life out of it.

And I submit they FIXED HPG. No more nascar. And oh my GOD the free food for fast moving mechs! You complain about snipers, I LOVE them. Up there with little cover, separated from their team... along I come in a fast medium mech... yum yum! all it takes is one team mate doing that to neutralize the enemy snipers and let everyone in the middle get on with their brawl.

[pattonesque]

snipers are viable on new HPG and so are brawlers due to the amount of cover spread across the map

[pbiggz]

Dr Wubs, on 26 March 2022 - 05:36 AM, said:

Are you kidding me?

The most popular maps are the ones where people agree that the battlefield offers balanced fights.

The old HPG's crime afaik was being symmetrical. It was 'fixed' by being made asymmetrical and making massive shelf so that more people can stand around the edge shooting people without getting shot.

Put the old HPG in the rotation and see which one is more popular: the old one or the 'fixed' one.

Moreover, the reason that Alpine doesn't get votes is because it's crap. The fights are crap. People just stand up high and plunk opponents down below. The high places are not equally accessible. One team has a massive advantage.

But oh no, gotta fix the most popular map in the game by making it worse.

So TLDR its bad because they changed it from what you were used to.

Sorry no, that's not a real justification.

[Malgron]

A bug/feature that I think needs to be fixed are the trees in the snow-covered regions. The glow "hot" in thermal vision, when they should be cold and dark. The trees in the lower regions of the same map do not have this problem. It's frustrating trying to target an ECM mech shooting from there when none of the vision types work.

[Pixel Hunter]

really don't like it.

I'm not a fan of playing "hide from the ECM ERLL boat". potential is there but needs some tweaks (like take away the ramps)

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 28 March 2022 - 05:52 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

2cents or so;

first off: new hpg is VASTLY superior to old hpg.

still: new hpg could use even more cover; yes, you can counter a sniper there - with the right mech.
what if you're in a "wrong" one? what if your "teammates" in the right mechs are busy doing "something else", like hiding it out (what 80% do about 90% of their time .. or so).
more hard cover in the center can't be a bad thing, right? a few pillars/antennas/whatever on the outskirts also should help.


in general, it's not a map-problem, it's -as usual- more of a people's problem; but you gotta work with whatever you've got, you know..?



*hopefully, I've got some time this weekend for a few rounds of mechracer, on the new course*

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 30 March 2022 - 03:39 AM.

[pbiggz]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 30 March 2022 - 03:38 AM, said:

2cents or so;

first off: new hpg is VASTLY superior to old hpg.

still: new hpg could use even more cover; yes, you can counter a sniper there - with the right mech.
what if you're in a "wrong" one? what if your "teammates" in the right mechs are busy doing "something else", like hiding it out (what 80% do about 90% of their time .. or so).
more hard cover in the center can't be a bad thing, right? a few pillars/antennas/whatever on the outskirts also should help.


in general, it's not a map-problem, it's -as usual- more of a people's problem; but you gotta work with whatever you've got, you know..?



*hopefully, I've got some time this weekend for a few rounds of mechracer, on the new course*

Sir? Are you replying with a coherent and nuanced argument taking into account all available facts rather than crouching on top of an arbitrary side of "the line" and spitting poison at anyone on the other side of said line?

I don't see why adding a touch more cover to the center would be a bad thing, so long as it doesn't completely nullify the utility the perches add. Snipers should be able to succeed on that map, especially if people are too busy screaming and crying about them to realize they're slow, made of paper and have super low DPS super hot weapons that don't work at close range and literally any medium-short range mech coming up the perch behind them will have free kills as long as their quick enough to get them before they try to run.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Pixel Hunter, on 28 March 2022 - 05:52 PM, said:

really don't like it.

I'm not a fan of playing "hide from the ECM ERLL boat". potential is there but needs some tweaks (like take away the ramps)

Disagree. Taking away the ramps will prevent non-jump capable mechs like piranhas from going and ruining the sniper's day. A fast mech that can DPS in someone's face is the best counter to a low DPS sniper. If your team has one (or several), snipers will not be an issue for you.

[pattonesque]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 March 2022 - 08:09 AM, said:

Disagree. Taking away the ramps will prevent non-jump capable mechs like piranhas from going and ruining the sniper's day. A fast mech that can DPS in someone's face is the best counter to a low DPS sniper. If your team has one (or several), snipers will not be an issue for you.

more cover in the center, distancing initial spawns from the ridges, and ramps in the middle would all help, I think

[Blood Rose]

pbiggz, on 30 March 2022 - 07:34 AM, said:

. Snipers should be able to succeed on that map, especially if people are too busy screaming and crying about them to realize they're slow, made of paper and have super low DPS super hot weapons that don't work at close range and literally any medium-short range mech coming up the perch behind them will have free kills as long as their quick enough to get them before they try to run.

Agreed, just as Brawlers can succeed on the city ma.... Oh, wait....
Remove the Valley of Death from Frozen City, and add much more cover to River City and alter Crimson Straight so the logical fighting areas are away from the bay and sniper island and then we can talk about snipers getting favourable maps. Current HPG is cancer.

Pixel Hunter, on 28 March 2022 - 05:52 PM, said:

really don't like it.

I'm not a fan of playing "hide from the ECM ERLL boat". potential is there but needs some tweaks (like take away the ramps)

This. Emerald Vale is good when both teams commit to the centre, but thats a rare thing. ECM covered ELRR and ERPPC boats love the map because they can dominate pretty much all of it from safety.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:12 AM, said:

This. Emerald Vale is good when both teams commit to the centre, but thats a rare thing. ECM covered ELRR and ERPPC boats love the map because they can dominate pretty much all of it from safety.

Its actually pretty easy on Emerald Vale to run up there with a Piranha, Arctic Wolf, or even a 90kph Centurion and end one of those snipers. If someone on your team does that, you have no sniper worries.

[Blood Rose]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 March 2022 - 09:27 AM, said:

Its actually pretty easy on Emerald Vale to run up there with a Piranha, Arctic Wolf, or even a 90kph Centurion and end one of those snipers. If someone on your team does that, you have no sniper worries.

Four things
Your assuming someone has one of those mechs
Your assuming the enemy team has only one sniper
Your assuming the sniper is slow
Your assuming the sniper has no escorts

[ScrapIron Prime]

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

Four things
Your assuming someone has one of those mechs
Your assuming the enemy team has only one sniper
Your assuming the sniper is slow
Your assuming the sniper has no escorts

True, if you tank a team by yourself, you die, that's a given.

But I've had hilarious fun with a stealth Hellspawn up there. there are SO many trees that if you just stand behind them in your stealth armor you can fire over and over again and they have no clue where you are. Its evil.

But again, my reaction to the new HPG was to equip a fast medium to go eat snipers who voluntarily separate from their team. It works really well on this map too.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 30 March 2022 - 09:35 AM.

[pattonesque]

new HPG has plenty of cover from snipers and many ways to approach them on the wall. It's a good balance -- the sniper spots are good but also the cover is obvious and spread-out. On Vale you can fire, take cover, reposition out of line of sight, and then fire again. on HPG you generally need to stick to the one structure unless you've attained complete superiority.

[Lumovanis]

I think if they reduced the cover on the ridges by about half, slightly boosted the cover on the ramps (just a couple more boulders or something) and reduced the trees a bit, this map would be much better for it. Right now it feels like there is little risk for 2-3 people to rush to the ridge and take up sniper positions, especially things like Direwolves where a couple lights might struggle against when it has backup. Outside of a rush, it feels like there is little drawback to being on the ridge, unlike HPG where they clearly stand out and are forced into one or two spots for cover.

[pbiggz]

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

Four things
Your assuming someone has one of those mechs

Can't balance maps around that so, whatever.

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

Your assuming the enemy team has only one sniper

Getting outplayed isn't a map question, its a getting outplayed question. If you go up to mess up a sniper and another one has a crossfire on you, good for them, they positioned well.

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

Your assuming the sniper is slow

Most high alpha snipers are. If they're fast, they probably don't have the damage throughput to be the boogeymen so many people make them out to be

Blood Rose, on 30 March 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

Your assuming the sniper has no escorts

Again, if you get outplayed, you got outplayed.

People are so quick to point to "bad maps" to rationalize their own losses, but sometimes people are better at clicking bad robots than you.

[Kanil]

pbiggz, on 30 March 2022 - 10:34 AM, said:

Getting outplayed isn't a map question, its a getting outplayed question. If you go up to mess up a sniper and another one has a crossfire on you, good for them, they positioned well.

The problem is that when half your team goes up to snipe, the only way to "not get outplayed" is to just go sit with them and wait for something interesting to happen.

This is boring.

It's not quite Frozen City Assault levels of boring, but it's up there.

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 30 March 2022 - 10:34 AM, said:

People are so quick to point to "bad maps" to rationalize their own losses, but sometimes people are better at clicking bad robots than you.

I've going to use this as my forum quote...

[Vonbach]

Emerald vale needs to have the ledges removed. The whole team just runs up there now.

[C E Dwyer]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 March 2022 - 08:10 AM, said:

And please do check out Phil's latest video. The enemy team had 3 snipers on the hill until the very end of the game. Watch how he maneuvers through cover in the center of the map so he essentially never had to worry about those snipers the entire game.

So your logic is to show two snipers winning the game, because they were fresh, to show how balanced the map is ?

Emerald Taiga was a great map, because it was about attack defend. Asymmetric maps fail, in nearly every other format.

HPG was a dull map, but it worked as neither side gave an advantage. put the old and the new HPG side by side, the old I'm very certain would win the vote every time.

Edited by C E Dwyer, 30 May 2022 - 06:52 AM.