98 replies to this topic

[martian]

I wondered what variants will PGI offer when releasing Crusader.

The previous Unseen BattleMechs such as Archer, Marauder, Rifleman or Warhammer were released with the following variants:

• One or two 3025 models - one of them was always the basic model
  
• One or two modern variants that incorporated the Lostech equipment
  
• One Hero 'Mech (there used to be some occassions in MWO when two Hero 'Mechs were released simultaneously; however, this has been rare)

3025 standard technology
CRD-3R Crusader - I guess that this is a safe bet.
CRD-3L - This model is equipped with jump jets and it could be worth considering.

3050+ advanced technology
Well, there are many similar variants: CRD-4BR, CRD-4D, CRD-4K, CRD-5S. They usually sport some advanced items such as pulse lasers, CASE, Streak SRMs, endosteel, double heat sinks, etc.

Perhaps the Marik CRD-5M variant would be a suitable choice: It is very advanced (DHS, XL Engine, AMS, Streak SRMs, CASE) and it is jump-capable.

The Drac CRD-5K model from 3060s would offer more energy hardpoints than other Crusaders, but it has C³ slave that is absent in MWO (not that this would be a big problem with some minor adjustment)

Outliers
There are two variants that are worth mentioning:
CRD-7L - Slower (195-rated engine) than other Crusaders and with lower engine cap, it is equipped with Stealth armor (i.e. Guardian ECM suite). It also jumps.

CRD-8S - This Steiner model is armed with the massive Heavy Gauss Rifle in its left torso. I think that this model could be a worthy addition to MWO, as it means a welcome departure from the usual energy/missile Crusader loadout. However, it would require PGI adjusting its loadout.

It could boost the sales of the new Crusader 'Mec pack.




Hero Mechs
There are named characters piloting Crusader. But usually they are in the background, getting a paragraph or two in some novel or sourcebook - you know. Appearing in some unit list, etc., rarely more.

However, there is one Crusader that I would like to see: The red-and-black Colonel Harimandir Singh‘s personal 'Mech. Grayson Carlyle‘s Nemesis in the Decision at Thunder Rift novel and a very competent Crusader pilot. Also very cunning when out of his 'Mech.

Edited by martian, 27 March 2022 - 04:34 AM.

[Horseman]

C3 Slave would probably get swapped for a Tcomp.

8S has Hgauss and XL, no-go in MWO. They might cheat it a bit by giving it a regular gauss, but less tonnage to work with (corresponding to Hgauss weight) and quirks that put the Gauss on equal statline as HGauss (including ammo)

Edited by Horseman, 28 March 2022 - 04:12 AM.

[martian]

Horseman, on 28 March 2022 - 04:10 AM, said:

C3 Slave would probably get swapped for a Tcomp.

That one ton C³ Slave could be replaced with pretty much any equipment or ammo.

Horseman, on 28 March 2022 - 04:10 AM, said:

8S has Hgauss and XL, no-go in MWO. They might cheat it a bit by giving it a regular gauss, but less tonnage to work with (corresponding to Hgauss weight) and quirks that put the Gauss on equal statline as HGauss (including ammo)

I thought about replacing that HGR+ammo with standard GR and 2-3 tons of ammo. The remaining tonnage could be used to boost the armor protection to 13.5 tons or more, thus bringing it on par with other Crusader variants.

It does not matter if one calls it CRD-8S or perhaps CRD-8P.

[1453 R]

Does it really matter?

It's a Crusader. A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, with visibly crap hitboxes/geo and most of its weaponry in its giant gorilla arms. Literally the only build you'll ever see on it is gut-mounted Murms using the gorilla arms as shields, like five-tons-heavier Quickdraws. It'll sell strictly and solely on the basis of being 'The Last (worthwhile) Unseen' and ticking off people's PokeMech boxes whilst making old-timer tabletop guys tingly in the bits. They'll give it outrageous quirks to move digital goods, despite the fact that the Catapult outcompeted the Crusader as a missile-hucking Succession Wars 65-tonner for decades in tabletop and was also the very first heavy 'Mech ever developed for MWO.

Like...cool. I'm honestly glad the Unseen Guys get their final non-Wasp/Stinger piece. The art looks neat, I really like Alex's take on the thing's ridiculous missile fists. It's a slick redesign, no doubt. But let's not pretend this thing is gonna have any actual impact on the game. They reached all the way into the bottom of the panty drawer for the TDR-10SE, gave people a Thunderbolt with MASC, ECM, and jump jets. It was still a Thunderbolt, and thus absolutely nobody cared precisely thirteen minutes after the Stryker Pack released.

And Crusaders are generally less interesting/useful than Thunderbolts.

Yeah. It's great to see a thaw in the New 'Mech Freeze and we all knew the Crusader was the only 'Mech that had any chance of making that thaw happen. But it's always been an indescribably mediocre pile of forgettable average, so....huzzah thaw, I guess?

Edited by 1453 R, 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Does it really matter?

Is that a toe in the "no new mechs because we can already mount all the weapons on something" school of thought?

Following that, we don't need a Stone Rhino because we already have a MAD IIC, no PHX IIC because we already have a Highlander IIC, no Hollander because we already have the Raven...

Its new, its iconic. Yes, from looking at it, it doesn't do anything that the last completely new mech (Dervish) doesn't already do, its just 10 tons heavier. But I'll buy it just the same. And you'll shoot at it just the same. and life will go on.

But I'll have a Crusader. life will be sweeter for it.

[FLG 01]

I need the CRD-6T and CRD-6D. Both are faster than the standard Crusader, which is what I find very appealing.

The CRD-6T is also a powerful energy boat with at least 14 energy hardpoints, and in useful locations.

_

Edited by FLG 01, 28 March 2022 - 08:53 AM.

[Horseman]

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Does it really matter?
It's a Crusader. A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, with visibly crap hitboxes/geo and most of its weaponry in its giant gorilla arms.

I mean, if you can't appreciate it then you probably aren't the target audience for it.

Edited by Horseman, 28 March 2022 - 08:36 AM.

[FLG 01]

By now people have either learned their lesson from the Uziel, Hellspawn, Thanatos... and do not expect much.
Or they are hopeless.

Yes, it is a Mech that only serves fans and helps to keep MWO going. ...which, at this point in MWO's lifecycle, is really the most important issue.
Sure, I would have preferred meta monsters like the Dragon Fire, or novelties like the Men Shen. But realistically, the Crusader is what keeps us going.

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 March 2022 - 08:15 AM, said:

Is that a toe in the "no new mechs because we can already mount all the weapons on something" school of thought?

Following that, we don't need a Stone Rhino because we already have a MAD IIC, no PHX IIC because we already have a Highlander IIC, no Hollander because we already have the Raven...

Its new, its iconic. Yes, from looking at it, it doesn't do anything that the last completely new mech (Dervish) doesn't already do, its just 10 tons heavier. But I'll buy it just the same. And you'll shoot at it just the same. and life will go on.

But I'll have a Crusader. life will be sweeter for it.

Nah. I just feel like it doesn't matter which variants we get, because we all know the drill. There'll be the default mostly-missile variants, the one energy-centric variant either taken from canon or an invented PGI -[X]P variant for spice, the one variant with a couple of cannon slots for the same reason, and they'll all be forgettable midweight Spheroid heavies. Even if they give people the 8S with the depicted high-and-tight super nice Shadow Hawk-esque shoulder cannon a'la the art up there, then what you've got is a fat Shadow Hawk with arm missiles nobody'll ever use.

'Sides. Anybody piloted a Shadow Hawk recently? A million years ago when they were the king of the meta people forgave their super obstructive and awful cockpit geo and vision-clogging shoulder guns, but we've had better stuff come out since. Hueh.

Like I said, I'm not really salty about the Crusader coming out. I knew it was the only new 'Mech Piranha stood any chance of making, the art looks good, and a lot of old tabletop guys are pleased as punch right now. All very cool. I just don't see any reality where it's remotely exciting, or where we don't know what we'll be getting. Mostly missiles with an off energy-centric variant and an off ballistic-capable variant, with a Hero that puts energy or cannons into locations that aren't on the stock variants a'la IV-4. Maybe a fast one, probably at least one ECM one because the Jesus Box sells packs and it's one way for Piranha to appeal to players who don't otherwise care about the thing.

Heh. I've got my own knuckleheaded soft spots for crap 'Mechs nobody else wants. I'll admit that one of them is the Penetrator. I love that derpy misshapen ball of metal and lasers perched on legs that make less sense the longer you look at them. I also know I am the only human being in the whole-ash cosmos who A.) remembers the Penetrator exists, and B.) would react with anything other than confusion followed by scorn and disgust should Piranha announce the thing for sale. It does precisely nothing that Grasshoppers and Black Knights don't already manage in packages other players find more aesthetically pleasing and would do very poorly even with the "First new 'Mech in three years!" thing going for it.

I just kinda feel like "Succession Wars-era missile-chunkin' 4/6 heavy" is a bracket even more thoroughly covered than "Spheroid heavyweight laser spammist". Like, if I had to pick the most thoroughly covered role in MWO, the one with the most chassis redundancy built in? 4/6 missile-chunkin' Spheroid heavyweight would be a very strong contender for the role.

[FLG 01]

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 08:50 AM, said:

'Sides. Anybody piloted a Shadow Hawk recently?

I did.

Anyway, I think you may sell that 14 energy hardpoint variant short. (...which is a fully canonic, regular production model variant of the 3050ies, retconned as it may be)

[martian]

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Does it really matter?

It's a Crusader.

PGI considers Crusader to be worth modelling, texturing and offering.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, ...

I have counted four IS 65-tonners in MWO:

• Roughneck
  
• Thunderbolt
  
• JagerMech
  
• Catapult

I am not sure how interesting the Roughneck is for BattleTech fans, since the 'Mech was invented by PGI.


Thunderbolt can not boat missiles (1-2 missile hardpoints max), while we can reasonably expect that Crusader will be able to do so.

JagerMech has been plagued with its wide body shape and it has been usually used for running ballistic loadouts.

Catapult boats missiles in its very vulnerable arms.

So yes, I think that Crusader could find its MWO niche.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

... with visibly crap hitboxes/geo and most of its weaponry in its giant gorilla arms.

Would not better to see what variants with what hardpoints PGI will ofer?

Also, quirks can boost various body parts with additional armor and structure or both.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Literally the only build you'll ever see on it is gut-mounted Murms using the gorilla arms as shields, like five-tons-heavier Quickdraws.

I guess that the loadouts will depend on hardpoints, 'Mech stats, quirks and the actual game model of the 'Mech.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

It'll sell strictly and solely on the basis of being 'The Last (worthwhile) Unseen' and ticking off people's PokeMech boxes whilst making old-timer tabletop guys tingly in the bits.

If it will make the players spend their cash on MWO, then it is a good thing.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

They'll give it outrageous quirks to move digital goods, ...

But you actually do not know what quirks Crusader is going to have, right?

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

despite the fact that the Catapult outcompeted the Crusader as a missile-hucking Succession Wars 65-tonner for decades in tabletop ...

In your games, maybe.This is perfectly all right - if you like Catapult more, then use it.

But I am not sure if you can talk for all those thousands of BattleTech players that have been playing BattleTech since 1980s.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

and was also the very first heavy 'Mech ever developed for MWO.

You mean, one decade ago?

Now it is the year 2022.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Like...cool. I'm honestly glad the Unseen Guys get their final non-Wasp/Stinger piece. The art looks neat, I really like Alex's take on the thing's ridiculous missile fists. It's a slick redesign, no doubt. But let's not pretend this thing is gonna have any actual impact on the game. They reached all the way into the bottom of the panty drawer for the TDR-10SE, gave people a Thunderbolt with MASC, ECM, and jump jets. It was still a Thunderbolt, and thus absolutely nobody cared precisely thirteen minutes after the Stryker Pack released.

And yet, I still see this Thunderbolt in the game from time to time.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

And Crusaders are generally less interesting/useful than Thunderbolts.

For you, maybe. Other MWO players may see it differently.

What if they wish to run loadouts that are not possible to build on Thunderbolt?

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yeah. It's great to see a thaw in the New 'Mech Freeze and we all knew the Crusader was the only 'Mech that had any chance of making that thaw happen. But it's always been an indescribably mediocre pile of forgettable average, so....huzzah thaw, I guess?

If you do not like Crusader, then simply do not buy it. Easy, is not it?

[KaptinOrk]

Why is there so much salt in this thread? We're getting a completely new 'mech for the first time in years, why are you so mad about it?

The Crusader is a classic Battletech 'mech that fans of the IP have wanted for years. So what if it's not an ultra-meta or game-breaking machine? The game would be dreadfully boring if every design conformed to the "energy boat with cockpit level, torso mounted hardpoints" mold.

[1453 R]

Le sigh. Guess I'm doing this today. Ah well. Slow day anyways.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

PGI considers Crusader to be worth modelling, texturing and offering.

Clearly. I'm not saying it's not the right move financially. Point of fact, I recall saying exactly the opposite and that I understand it's the best move they could make for their first new design since 2019. The machine is pretty obviously What The People Want. Maybe keep that in mind?

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

I have counted four IS 65-tonners in MWO:

• Roughneck
  
• Thunderbolt
  
• JagerMech
  
• Catapult

Oh come on. Don't even tell me you're not gonna count designs like the Archer, or all the missile-centric variants of 'Mechs like the Orion or Quickdraw.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

I am not sure how interesting the Roughneck is for BattleTech fans, since the 'Mech was invented by PGI.

That makes it more interesting, not less. I like when Piranha invents new machines and expands the canon, even if only within the context of their game. I don't generally pilot much in the way of Sphere junk and the Roughneck isn't to my tastes even in terms of Sphere junk, but it's a very interesting design with a neat visual aesthetic and a really cool origin story. The idea of a company using an industrial design as a basis for a rapid-prototyping, up-armored militarized stopgap is oh so very BattleTech. What else is this universe for, if not strapping a bunch of armor and a bunch of guns onto anything with legs and a fusion plant?

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

Thunderbolt can not boat missiles (1-2 missile hardpoints max), while we can reasonably expect that Crusader will be able to do so.

And? I'm not talking about strictly the 65-ton bracket man, I'm talking "Inner sphere heavyweight 4/6 missile chunkers". The Thunderbolt is simply a good approximation of what the Crusader's geo and hitboxes will look like since they're both thicc-fisted gorrilla-armed stocky robros. They share very similar shapes in the tabletop game, and the MWO art doesn't disprove the trend.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

JagerMech has been plagued with its wide body shape and it has been usually used for running ballistic loadouts.

Doesn't stop the JM6-A from being a Spheroid heavyweight 4/6 missile chunker. With arm--mounted missiles, to boot. Is it fantastic? No. But it exists.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

Catapult boats missiles in its very vulnerable arms.

Excuse me, have you seen the art for the Crusader? "Vulnerable arms" is not a weakness the Crusader gets to pick on other 'Mechs for. Again, I point you to the Thunderbolt, and the Thunderbolt's tendency to shed arms at the drop of a hat because its arms are gigantic bullet magnets. Very good for shielding torsos; very bad for retaining weaponry.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

So yes, I think that Crusader could find its MWO niche.

No doubt it will. It'll simply have to share that niche with half a dozen other designs.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

Would not better to see what variants with what hardpoints PGI will ofer?

Why? They follow the same pattern with every 'Mech. Sure, there might be some quibbles, but there's also the idea that if they stray from the mold too much people will complain that it's not a proper Crusader, just a Crusader-shaped something-else. So yeah. Mostly missiles, with a couple of 'weird' variants for people who want to pilot a Crusader-shaped something-else, and they'll make sure to give it enough hardpoint glut and overquirking to make it the new defining standard for Spheroid 4/6 heavyweight missile chunker. The same way hardpoint glut and overquirking makes the Dervish definitively better than its canonical replacement, the Hellspawn.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

Also, quirks can boost various body parts with additional armor and structure or both.

Yup. They sure can.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

I guess that the loadouts will depend on hardpoints, 'Mech stats, quirks and the actual game model of the 'Mech.

Yup. They sure will.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

If it will make the players spend their cash on MWO, then it is a good thing.

Tell that to all the folks who screamed bloody murder at the Warden pack for Power Creep. Or the new Bloodname pack, for both power creep and 'being boring'. Or literally any time Piranha acknowledges that the Clans exist, really.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

But you actually do not know what quirks Crusader is going to have, right?

Nope. Though I can make a pretty good guess that it's gonna have thicc armor/structure quirks for those outsized arms, the same generic five to fifteen percent general weapons performance quirks as every other Sphere machine, some missile-focused "unique" quirks like extra target retention quirks, some ghost heat decouplings, and the like to make it more attractive as a missile spammer. All the things we all know we'd do if we were Piranha introducing a new Spheroid 4/6 missile chunker and wanted to sell it to people who already have twelve of those.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

In your games, maybe.This is perfectly all right - if you like Catapult more, then use it.

But I am not sure if you can talk for all those thousands of BattleTech players that have been playing BattleTech since 1980s.

I cannot, no. Can I talk for myself? People would've been screeching to the rafters if Piranha had announced any of my favorites instead of the Crusader, even though this is the last new 'Mech MWO is ever going to get and we all know it. Am I not permitted even the slightest bit of disappointment that the last new 'Mech we'll ever get is an entirely forgettable Spheroid plodder? i mean, it's better than leaving off on the blurdy Dervish, but still.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

You mean, one decade ago?

Now it is the year 2022.

...I'm not sure what the point of this bit is? By "decades" up above, I meant in tabletop. I can't imagine being in a situation where I was allowed to pick between a Crusader and a Catapult where I wouldn't pick the Catapult, and I don't even really know the TT rules. I've been following the 'verse since the nineties and MW2, but there was never any slightest chance for me to play the TT game. Perhaps that's why I simply don't align properly with the tabletop crowd. Who knows?

Either way. Maybe that clarifies stuff?

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

And yet, I still see this Thunderbolt in the game from time to time.

I see a lot of bad 'Mechs when the mood strikes me to play. Doesn't mean they have any impact on the game. I saw Ravens pretty regularly too,and it's been close to eight years since the Raven wasn't a waste of a 'Mech bay slot. Heck, even piloted my old Ravens once or twice for funzies' sake, and got suuitably drubbed for my trouble.

The Warden pack was fun. 'Mechs were doing things they'd never done before, I was seeing builds I hadn't seen, and I found myself piloting 'Mechs and trying builds I never would've tried without those two variants. The Hunter pack wasn't as good, but it still got me into a 'Mech I'd never used before and introduced me to one of my best performers. Sure, maybe Crusaders can do the same...but I doubt it.

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

For you, maybe. Other MWO players may see it differently.

What if they wish to run loadouts that are not possible to build on Thunderbolt?

Then they'll play something other than a Thunderbolt? Probably a Crusader in 'bout three months' time?

martian, on 28 March 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

If you do not like Crusader, then simply do not buy it. Easy, is not it?

Would you be so carefree if they'd announced the Penetrator, instead? Or the Grendel, a 'Mech I've lusted after for years now and would buy without regret even though I don't play the game much anymore? Or the Phantom, strictly because getting 9+ Clanner energy hardpoints and ECM going 150kph is fun? Or, for that matter, announced literally any Clan 'Mech even though the last 'Mech we got was already a "Fans of the IP want it" Succession Wars-era missile-chunkin' junker? This would be why the Clans got two booster packs in a row, by the way - a red Summoner and Kit Fox are the thing we get instead of a sweet new chassis.

Heh. Again - enjoy your Crusaders. I'm glad fans of the design are getting their time to play. Suppose all I'd really want is a little bit of commiseration for folks that will never get their favorites. And, I guess, to throw the occasional egg at the hype train from over here in my little cubbyhole just for my own satisfaction while everybody else is busily training their hype.

[martian]

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Clearly. I'm not saying it's not the right move financially. Point of fact, I recall saying exactly the opposite and that I understand it's the best move they could make for their first new design since 2019. The machine is pretty obviously What The People Want. Maybe keep that in mind?

Yes, you should keep in mind that to keep the lights on, PGI must give the players what they will probably buy.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Oh come on. Don't even tell me you're not gonna count designs like the Archer, or all the missile-centric variants of 'Mechs like the Orion or Quickdraw.

Do not move the goalposts. You talked very specifically about:

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, ...

You did not talk about 60-tonners, 70-tonner or 75-tonners.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

That makes it more interesting, not less. I like when Piranha invents new machines and expands the canon, even if only within the context of their game. I don't generally pilot much in the way of Sphere junk and the Roughneck isn't to my tastes even in terms of Sphere junk, but it's a very interesting design with a neat visual aesthetic and a really cool origin story. The idea of a company using an industrial design as a basis for a rapid-prototyping, up-armored militarized stopgap is oh so very BattleTech. What else is this universe for, if not strapping a bunch of armor and a bunch of guns onto anything with legs and a fusion plant?

This makes it more interesting in your opinion. The opinion of other players might differ.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

And? I'm not talking about strictly the 65-ton bracket man, I'm talking "Inner sphere heavyweight 4/6 missile chunkers". The Thunderbolt is simply a good approximation of what the Crusader's geo and hitboxes will look like since they're both thicc-fisted gorrilla-armed stocky robros. They share very similar shapes in the tabletop game, and the MWO art doesn't disprove the trend.

I can only repeat: Do not move the goalposts. You talked very specifically about:

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, ...

You did not talk about 60-tonners, 70-tonner or 75-tonners.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Doesn't stop the JM6-A from being a Spheroid heavyweight 4/6 missile chunker. With arm--mounted missiles, to boot. Is it fantastic? No. But it exists.

So you are okay with the missile boating JagerMech, even though you admitted it sports not exactly ideal body shape, and yet you rant about the "crap hitboxes/geo" of the missile boating Crusader ...

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Excuse me, have you seen the art for the Crusader? "Vulnerable arms" is not a weakness the Crusader gets to pick on other 'Mechs for. Again, I point you to the Thunderbolt, and the Thunderbolt's tendency to shed arms at the drop of a hat because its arms are gigantic bullet magnets. Very good for shielding torsos; very bad for retaining weaponry.

And what I said about the Catapult's vulnerable arms - is it true or not?

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

No doubt it will. It'll simply have to share that niche with half a dozen other designs.

I can only repeat: Do not move the goalposts. You talked very specifically about:

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

A missile-hucking Succession Wars-era 65-tonner like we've got seventeen of already, ...

You did not talk about 60-tonners, 70-tonner or 75-tonners.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Why? They follow the same pattern with every 'Mech. Sure, there might be some quibbles, but there's also the idea that if they stray from the mold too much people will complain that it's not a proper Crusader, just a Crusader-shaped something-else. So yeah. Mostly missiles, with a couple of 'weird' variants for people who want to pilot a Crusader-shaped something-else, and they'll make sure to give it enough hardpoint glut and overquirking to make it the new defining standard for Spheroid 4/6 heavyweight missile chunker. The same way hardpoint glut and overquirking makes the Dervish definitively better than its canonical replacement, the Hellspawn.

So you actually do not know, what variants of Crusader PGI is going to offer and what hardpoints they are going to have, right?

By the way, I should tell you that Hellspawn is 45-tonner, while Dervish is 55-tonner, i.e. 'Mech ten tons heavier. Is it really so surprising that Dervish is better in some respects?

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yup. They sure can.

I am quite okay with waiting to see what variants of the Crusader 'Mech Pack PGI will offer.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yup. They sure will.

I am quite okay with waiting to see what variants (and with what hardpoints) PGI will offer.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Tell that to all the folks who screamed bloody murder at the Warden pack for Power Creep. Or the new Bloodname pack, for both power creep and 'being boring'. Or literally any time Piranha acknowledges that the Clans exist, really.

I do not think that Crusader will be the example of "power creep".

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Nope. Though I can make a pretty good guess that it's gonna have thicc armor/structure quirks for those outsized arms, the same generic five to fifteen percent general weapons performance quirks as every other Sphere machine, some missile-focused "unique" quirks like extra target retention quirks, some ghost heat decouplings, and the like to make it more attractive as a missile spammer. All the things we all know we'd do if we were Piranha introducing a new Spheroid 4/6 missile chunker and wanted to sell it to people who already have twelve of those.

Then I would suggest that you wait for some more detailed info. The Crusader preorder details should be released soon.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

I cannot, no. Can I talk for myself? People would've been screeching to the rafters if Piranha had announced any of my favorites instead of the Crusader, even though this is the last new 'Mech MWO is ever going to get and we all know it. Am I not permitted even the slightest bit of disappointment that the last new 'Mech we'll ever get is an entirely forgettable Spheroid plodder? i mean, it's better than leaving off on the blurdy Dervish, but still.

Of course that you can talk for yourself. Just do not try to pass you personal opinions as the facts, just like you attempted to do here:

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 07:45 AM, said:

despite the fact that the Catapult outcompeted the Crusader as a missile-hucking Succession Wars 65-tonner for decades in tabletop ...

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

...I'm not sure what the point of this bit is? By "decades" up above, I meant in tabletop. I can't imagine being in a situation where I was allowed to pick between a Crusader and a Catapult where I wouldn't pick the Catapult, and I don't even really know the TT rules. I've been following the 'verse since the nineties and MW2, but there was never any slightest chance for me to play the TT game. Perhaps that's why I simply don't align properly with the tabletop crowd. Who knows?

So you are talking about the game that you have never actually played? It was "you" who started to talk about the tabletop BattleTech games. I can tell you that Crusader has many useful properties that can be useful to have when playing the tabletop BattleTech games.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

I see a lot of bad 'Mechs when the mood strikes me to play. Doesn't mean they have any impact on the game. I saw Ravens pretty regularly too,and it's been close to eight years since the Raven wasn't a waste of a 'Mech bay slot. Heck, even piloted my old Ravens once or twice for funzies' sake, and got suuitably drubbed for my trouble.

The Warden pack was fun. 'Mechs were doing things they'd never done before, I was seeing builds I hadn't seen, and I found myself piloting 'Mechs and trying builds I never would've tried without those two variants. The Hunter pack wasn't as good, but it still got me into a 'Mech I'd never used before and introduced me to one of my best performers. Sure, maybe Crusaders can do the same...but I doubt it.

What is a "bad 'Mech" for you that has "no impact on the game" can be a viable and good machine in the hands of some other player.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Then they'll play something other than a Thunderbolt? Probably a Crusader in 'bout three months' time?

Exactly.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Would you be so carefree if they'd announced the Penetrator, instead? Or the Grendel, a 'Mech I've lusted after for years now and would buy without regret even though I don't play the game much anymore? Or the Phantom, strictly because getting 9+ Clanner energy hardpoints and ECM going 150kph is fun? Or, for that matter, announced literally any Clan 'Mech even though the last 'Mech we got was already a "Fans of the IP want it" Succession Wars-era missile-chunkin' junker? This would be why the Clans got two booster packs in a row, by the way - a red Summoner and Kit Fox are the thing we get instead of a sweet new chassis.

Yes, I am always ready to check a new 'Mech pack and then I decide if I will buy it or not. And if I do not buy it, I understand that some other players might like that 'Mech.

1453 R, on 28 March 2022 - 09:57 AM, said:

Heh. Again - enjoy your Crusaders. I'm glad fans of the design are getting their time to play. Suppose all I'd really want is a little bit of commiseration for folks that will never get their favorites. And, I guess, to throw the occasional egg at the hype train from over here in my little cubbyhole just for my own satisfaction while everybody else is busily training their hype.

As I just said, I can wait. I will check the upcoming PGI's 'Mech Pack offer and all available info and then I will make the purchase - or not.

[Novakaine]

[Valdarion Silarius]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 March 2022 - 08:15 AM, said:

Is that a toe in the "no new mechs because we can already mount all the weapons on something" school of thought?

Following that, we don't need a Stone Rhino because we already have a MAD IIC, no PHX IIC because we already have a Highlander IIC, no Hollander because we already have the Raven...

Its new, its iconic. Yes, from looking at it, it doesn't do anything that the last completely new mech (Dervish) doesn't already do, its just 10 tons heavier. But I'll buy it just the same. And you'll shoot at it just the same. and life will go on.

But I'll have a Crusader. life will be sweeter for it.

I nearly spit my drink to the fallacy of "we shouldn't have this x mech because we already have y mech" until I realized what you were trying to convey. Also, lol to anyone who thinks that the Stone Rhino is anything comparable to the MAD-IIC.

I'm more interested of the quirks that the Crusader will bring to the table compared to the other heavies that we have. Definitely going to deck my Crusader out with a cross, and the closest thing I can get to a great helm for the head of the mech.

[Escef]

Frankly, as I've said several times, It brings nothing new to the game. Especially with the Rule of 3 gone for some time now. It doesn't really do anything that could not be replicated on a Jagermech, Catapult, or T-bolt.

Still, if the prospect of a new mech gets people psyched to play, I'm all for its inclusion. I'd rather see the Valkyrie or Phoenix Hawk IIC, but a light mech like the Valk won't excite the player base. And the PXH-IIC would just leave people scratching their heads at a 45 ton mech being re-engineered as an 80 tonner. I also wouldn't mind seeing the Shadowhawk IIC, Griffin IIC, or Conjuror (Wolverine IIC in all but name).

[Alex Morgaine]

I'm gonna put a gauss in the right arm of my 65t mech finally!
*sad thunderbolt noises

[Escef]

Alex Morgaine, on 28 March 2022 - 11:53 AM, said:

I'm gonna put a gauss in the right arm of my 65t mech finally!
*sad thunderbolt noises

Meanwhile, the Jagermech family is off to the side staring at in you in dead silence.

[Weeny Machine]

I don't get the fights in this thread.

Is the crusader doing something unqiue? Most likely not
Is the crusader outperforming similar mechs? Maybe, we will see but I doubt it

Personally, I like the classic crusader and this thing doesn't get me hyped in any way. However, I am glad for the people who are excited by it- and I can see why,it is the first new mech in years after all.

In short: dudes who want to buy it, enjoy your incoming new toy and ignore the grinches I hope you will have fun.