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Crusader Variants

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#61 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 09:51 AM

View PostLumovanis, on 31 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

They will never do that though because the mech belongs to a different company and the artillery would require programming for aiming at the very least (arc-based aim like mortars in some of the FPS games, or some such) which we know isn't happening this late.


And that's the reason I suggest the simplified mechanic, not because its the most accurate way to represent the mech, but because it would get the mech into the game with PGI's limited resources.

#62 Alex Morgaine

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 10:47 AM

View PostEscef, on 28 March 2022 - 11:56 AM, said:

Meanwhile, the Jagermech family is off to the side staring at in you in dead silence.


oh yeah... that mech exists... um yeah... awkward...

#63 martian

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 10:49 AM

View PostAlex Morgaine, on 31 March 2022 - 10:47 AM, said:

oh yeah... that mech exists... um yeah... awkward...

I own "Firebrand" and I kinda like it. Posted Image

#64 FupDup

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 12:44 PM

View PostLumovanis, on 31 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

They will never do that though because the mech belongs to a different company and the artillery would require programming for aiming at the very least (arc-based aim like mortars in some of the FPS games, or some such) which we know isn't happening this late.

The programming side shouldn't be too hard since CryEngine/Crysis already had arc-based weapons like grenades.

Programming aside I think that having such a big chunk of the mech's weight and slots in a locked piece of equipment would make it harder to balance. Also the HBS "Mech Mortar" isn't canon (canon mech mortars are missile weapons and are categorized by tube count).

#65 FupDup

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 06:00 PM

Preorder is up:

https://mwomercs.com/crusader

Looks like the slow variant got a cap of 260 instead of 235. The RFL-IIC is feeling jelly right now.

#66 Davegt27

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 07:10 PM

well the Crusader passes the first test

hero Crael
*note just a quick look it might not be correct

https://mwo.nav-alph...144d20ef_CUSTOM



Posted Image

#67 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 07:18 PM

View PostDavegt27, on 31 March 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

well the Crusader passes the first test

hero Crael
*note just a quick look it might not be correct

https://mwo.nav-alph...144d20ef_CUSTOM



Posted Image

Alas, the Crael is listed as having lower arm actuators… so the arms only have 9 spaces.

it won’t replace the Catapult for dual 20’s.

#68 Akamia Terizen

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 07:29 PM

WRT the Bull Shark: Let's be very clear here, it doesn't actually have a Mech mortar; it has a Thumper Cannon. In tabletop and in HBSTech, these are two different weapons; very different in the tabletop, but only slightly different in the video game. And yes, the Thumper is canon; unlike the ’Mech, Harebrained Schemes did not make this weapon up. The Mortar is also canon, but not in the way HBS used it...

With that said, and to get back on topic, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Crusaders. I don't know that I will pilot one, but I'm very interested in fighting them. Posted Image

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 31 March 2022 - 07:46 PM.


#69 Escef

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 08:16 PM

Y'know, I was joking when I said the hero would be a machine gun boat...Well, at least I got the engine cap wrong.

#70 martian

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 08:32 PM

View PostEscef, on 31 March 2022 - 08:16 PM, said:

Y'know, I was joking when I said the hero would be a machine gun boat...


It has got only ten Machine Guns, not twelve as you promised. Posted Image

And the usual battle cry: "Nerf MGs!!!!!!!!!!! MGs are OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Posted Image

#71 Davegt27

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 09:18 PM

sorry about posting wrong info

someone put a MechDB of the hero
so the first thing I did was rip the stupid MGs off and tried to see if AC20s would fit

I did not study the mech it was just a quick look

to bad it only 65 tons

but they said the Crusader has been the most requested Mech over the years

to bad!

#72 JudauAshta

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 09:40 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 31 March 2022 - 08:35 AM, said:

You're not wrong. Consumables are a cBill sink. (Or MC sink, but I don't know anyone who does.)

But if the Bull Shark uses arty strikes as its equipment, then the consumable framework is the way to reproduce that. Shoring up the consumable system is another topic altogether.


i doubt it...
with how much people are willing to spam arty/air strikes willy nilly, they are not expensive enough

#73 1453 R

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM

So. Now that the preorder page is up, let's see what we have here on Martian's Legendary Game-Saving Best 'Mech Ever Released in MWO.

CRD-3R:
This gets the 1E/1B/1M in each arm, as well as 2M in each shoulder, for a total of 2E/2B/6M. The expected hardpoint inflation, really - the Crusader is all about chunkin' missiles, so they gave it extra missiles to chunk. 4M in the torso provides room for a decent SRM armament as well as all the Murms one could need to Murm a Murmer. The ballistic hardpoints are mostly a waste, nobody's playing a Crusader for cannons in the arms. There's Riflemen or JagerMechs for that. This one gets no jets or other supplementary equipment, it's pure armor-and-weapons. Quirks will almost certainly center on enhancing the stock mixed-bracket loadout because 'Mech Dad reasons, and having the otherwise generous six missile hardpoints split between the arms and the torso causes convergence issues. Four-and-two is not how people want to fire their missiles, even if having a couple of launchers on fully articulated arms allows better tracking against fast aggressors. 'Best Builds' are likely gonna be mixed Murm/Surm boats looking to fire a maximum of warheads in one click, as 2E isn't enough for a respectable supplemental energy array. Expect low engine ratings and mixed-warhead brawlers - four sixes and two MRM-10s can fire in one click for most of the same damage as six SRM-6s, and CRD-3R pilots with some mojo can try to fit 20s instead of 10s.

CRD-5K:
4E/4M, with the missiles split evenly between the arms and the beams focused in the torso. No ECM, no MASC, but it does have moderate jump capacity with four possible jets. This is the dedicated brawler variant, with a comfortable max of SRM hardpoints in the Stank Fists and enough energy in the torso for a proper supplemental beam array. Expect to see quad sixes, usually Artemis'd, stacked with MPLs and the classic One Jump Jet Comp Thing that drives me nuts. This is almost certainly going to be considered the 'Best' non-Hero 'Mech and the only one you might see in comp circles. Those arms will come off right quick, but while it has them the 5K will be a dangerous close-quarters 'Mech. Ironically the variant least likely to lean on MRMs, given that it's the only variant canonically equipped with them.

CRD-5M:
Marik Weirdness abounds. You get undesirably assymetric hardpoints, with 1E/1M in the left Stank Fist and 2E/1M/1B in the right. One additional M hardpoint per shoulder and dual AMS, though not dual laser AMS since one of the AMS hardpoints is locked to the dome. Average four-jet jump capacity, average engine for its size. Almost entirely unremarkable variant, not quite fish or fowl. 3E is pretty scant for an energy array, 4M is sufficient for missiles but hampered by being split between arms and torso. The single cannon hardpoint is a waste, and MWO players hate AMS as it is so the dual AMS thing won't ever really come up. Doubtless the Cauldron will assign it some manner of bizarre quirkology in an attempt to make it less boring, but I don't foresee anything that could possibly make it competitive with even just the basic 3R Crusader, let alone the 5K or the Hero.

CRD-6T:
The much-vaunted fourteen energy variant, with a very high engine cap nobody will ever use and best-in-chassis jump capability people will also never use. Already broke this down earlier in the thread - the actual factual only way to make use of all fourteen hardpoints is to put two Big Energy in the shoulder hardpoints and fill the slot-limited 6E arms with small lasers. Anything else and you don't have the weight or the space to use all fourteen hardpoints. Ghost Heat disallows the stock Nova Prime armament and this thing will be so absolutely starved for slot space to cram more heat sinks into, you're likely to see folks try and do Succession Wars-era STD/STD/STD engine/armor/structure and tolerate the disastrous weight loss in search for One Last DHS for whichever cockamamie energy thing they intend to do. Simply too many beam hardpoints for Sphere technology to make effective use of.

CRD-7L:
The Liao Sneekee Boi variant with ECM capability, mediocre jump capability, and a reduced engine capacity nobody cares about because The Meta is to put the tiniest feeblest lamest engine you can get away with in anything fifty tons or up anyways. Hardpoint layout semi-mimics the base 3R variant, with six missiles spread between Fists and Nipples backed up by two entire energy hardpoints - one in the dome, one in the CT. Extremely limited energy options, but a CT snub peep or LPL backing up the same sort of mixed SRM/MRM multi-warhead brawler loadouts as the 3R with ECM coverage means this is likely the only non-Hero that stands a chance of challenging the 5K's status as Most Meta-Friendly, Actually Dangerous Variant. The dogvomit engine cap definitely hurts its viability as a brawler, this thing moves assault 'Mech speed at best, but if the Robit Gods smile upon 'Mech Dads and locate that CT energy high enough to poke? The LPL builds can at least score some minor dings prior to the lategame push of a typical MWO match. Unlikely to receive much if any significant offensive quirking due to having good* hardpoints, ECM, and jets, even if nobody will ever use the lastmost.

And finally...

CRD-CRAEL:
Piranha decided to move Crusader packs by making the Crusader Hero a sixty-five ton Spheroid Piranha and bank on blatant power creep to sell digital robits. The sad part is that it's probably gonna work. Much as it grinds my gears to admit it, Crael is going to be one of the game's most dangerous brawlers. Ten light machine guns backed by four SRM-6s achieves horrifying DPS and is perfectly doable on the variant. Standard machine guns is equally doable and achieves even more stupid damage numbers, but heavily constricts the 'Mech's range; LMGs mesh better with the SRM launchers' range and honestly feel like the right choice. The madlads who manage to cram ten HMGs onto the blurdy thing will basically be your 'Melee' option in MWO, but that will be a meme build at best.

The worst part is that unlike lightweight machine gun screwkakke 'Mechs like the Mist Lynx or Doomfish, Crael doesn't need to stare at you to hurt you. It can operate like a conventional SRM brawler if it has to, firing salvos of missiles and twisting off incoming fire while ducking in and out of cover. Crael doesn't have to commit to an MG strafing run to accomplish its job, the way other Sphere machine gun memes like the JM6-DD or Arrow do. It can opt to fight like a regular (if rather undergunned, for the era) SRM bomber instead and save its machine guns for when it has an advantage to press. It is with great sadness and irritation that I admit that Crael is likely to be one of the Inner Sphere's strongest Hero 'Mechs. Not necessarily because it's a Crusader, but because this sort of pandering kinda annoys me. If at any point machine guns stop being good the way half the damned forum insists they should, Crael goes from phenomenal to phlub, which is also annoying.

Overall?

The base, C-billionaire Crusaders will amplify the Sphere's heavy brawler game, offering mixed-warhead MRM/SRM brawler loadouts that weren't readily available in the weight bracket before. Hardpoint inflation serves 'Mech Dads well - the CPLT-A1 would like to know where its four free hardpoints are, since the Crusader gets 6M and also four extra hardpoints besides. They're not going to accomplish anything the Sphere couldn't already do, but they might accomplish it at a lower weight point than the Sphere had ready access to before, or in a chassis better able to handle close combat. It's not likely to take the place of tippy-top Compy Boi cannon-centric machines like the Warhammer, but sheer late-stage MWO hardpoint glut means it's likely going to be a premiere missile chunker in the weight class. And of course the Hero is going to explode the forum with complaints of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO with an absolutely unmatched morass of hardpoints and almost twice the machine gun spam capacity of its nearest competitors without being reliant on those machine guns.

Not the worst pack you could buy, by any means. Pricy, with no El Cheapo entry point, but they also dispensed with the whole 'Reinforcements' thing so eh. Course, the new 'Collector's' pack is five bucks more than the old 'base pack + reinforcements' price point, but you're not supposed to notice that. 'Mech Dads will be overjoyed that four out of their five base Crusaders will at least be adequate, and two of them might even be Good. Not that any of them will care. Crusader pre-orders will consists of exactly two kinds of people - 'Mech Dads playing the CRD-3R stock loadout with minimal alterations whilst complaining about MWO's whole Solaris-y over-optimized, Untrue To BattleTech™ thing, or people running Crael because sixty-five ton Spheroid Piranha with secondary heavy missile battery instead.

I will say this: definitely a better note to leave 'Mech intros off on than the gorram Dervish.

Edited by 1453 R, 01 April 2022 - 05:56 AM.


#74 martian

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 07:48 AM

View Post1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

So. Now that the preorder page is up, let's see what we have here on Martian's Legendary Game-Saving Best 'Mech Ever Released in MWO.

Just quote me where I said that. Specifically that "Best 'Mech Ever Released in MWO" part.


View Post1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

MWO players hate AMS as it is so the dual AMS thing won't ever really come up.

In one of your previous posts you pretended that you are talking for all BattleTech players and now you are doing it again - pretending that you are talking for all MWO players.

Just for your information, I just had a good game in my "Jester" equipped with twin AMS. And "Jester" is not my only AMS-equipped 'Mech.


View Post1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

CRD-6T:
The much-vaunted fourteen energy variant, with a very high engine cap nobody will ever use and best-in-chassis jump capability people will also never use.

In one of your previous posts you pretended that you are talking for all BattleTech players and now you are doing it again - pretending that you are talking for all MWO players.


View Post1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

The Meta is to put the tiniest feeblest lamest engine you can get away with in anything fifty tons or up anyways.

Surely you can post some proofs for your claim.

From what I know, some popular Grasshopper builds upgrade their engines from the stock 280-rated engine to 300- or 325-sized reactors. Or some good Annihilator builds upgrade their engines from 200-rated to 300-rated. Ditto for some BattleMaster builds that go from 340-rated engines to larger engines.


View Post1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

Piranha decided to move Crusader packs by making the Crusader Hero a sixty-five ton Spheroid Piranha and bank on blatant power creep to sell digital robits.

A few months ago PGI released ECM Timber Wolf and ECM Dire Wolf. I think those 'Mechs can be listed as examples of power creep.

Crusader is just IS low-end heavy BattleMech that has the option to boat some short-ranged MGs.

#75 pbiggz

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 07:51 AM

ladies please. You're both pretty.

#76 1453 R

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 08:10 AM

To be fair, Biggz, I was trying to be reasonably neutral in my first-blush review of the various variants. Yeah sure, I made some observations on common playerbase trends, such as "the typical MWO player does not value high groundspeed, instead preferring to downgrade their engine where possible to gain additional tonnage for weapons and armor", "the typical MWO player does not value AMS; multi-AMS variants of many BattleMechs are considered poorer than variants which focus on more typical hardpoints instead, or when they are considered 'good' it is despite their AMS capabilities", and "the typical MWO player does not value jump capability beyond that which is needed to get over small jags in terrain, or to make small jumps over narrow gaps."

Feels like all the assertions I made in my post, however gussied up for entertainment and conveyance of my own opinion of the playerbase's values may be, were things a typical MWO player conversant with general trends in the game could recognize and agree upon. I also recall coming to the conclusion that the Crusader variants as presented were overall more good than bad. There's only one weird bum variant (the FWL never gets this crap right anyways), and I distinctly recall saying that Crael is slated to be one of the most powerful Sphere Hero 'Mechs in the game.

Somebody just happens to have a bug up their hind end about the whole "DON'T SPEAK FOR THE WHOLE PLAYERBASE!" thing. Which, first of all, that's a bad argument - it does nothing to disprove anything I said, it merely seeks to dismiss my words as personal conjecture. My words are always personal conjecture, [Insert Bug-Hindus'd Angry Person Here], but that doesn't make them any more or less accurate than they were before you asserted such. And second of all, who cares. hyperbolic exaggeration is a natural part of human communication, and people who nitpick against it are fighting the tide. Futile, pointless, and kinna sad to watch.

But yes. I'd like to think I am pretty. Thank you, Biggz. What do you think - 5K or 7L for Most Meta Non-Crael Crusader? 5K's got better mobility potential and a more intuitive and easy to use blend of beams and missiles, but the 7L gets ECM and a heavier missile payload. Think the Jesus Box and two extra launchers makes up for having so much less energy armament and being restricted to mostly-crap engines?

#77 pbiggz

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 08:16 AM

I think the crusader is cool. It wont be anything new, but it will be cool. It would have been nice to get a more unique mech or more unique variants for sure, i've noted the ballistic torso variant is missing, which is a bit of a bummer. Maybe one day, in a parallel universe we will. I would have loved to see a kingfisher for example.

Im not sure what there is to gain being overly happy/angry about exactly which variants we got, since an overly theory crafted/optimized thunderbolt and the can basically do everything and then some. This is a pet mech for mechdads. If it ends up being good, thats great. If its bad, easy kills for us young'ns.

#78 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 09:37 AM

View Postpbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 08:16 AM, said:

I think the crusader is cool. It wont be anything new, but it will be cool. It would have been nice to get a more unique mech or more unique variants for sure.


Yeah, we can always use one of the other IS mechs with 14 energy hard points.

Oh wait... there aren't any.

#79 pbiggz

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 09:41 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yeah, we can always use one of the other IS mechs with 14 energy hard points.

Oh wait... there aren't any.


Do you need 14? the 7mpl thunderbolt seemed mean enough to me.

Either way, im not here to hate on the crusader. It looks cool. I hope its good. I also hope its not the last mech we ever get.

#80 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 09:46 AM

Well nobody NEEDS the Piranha with 14 or 15 energy hard points either, not when you have an Arctic Cheetah with 7, right? =P





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