191 replies to this topic

[TheCaptainJZ]

C337Skymaster, on 07 April 2022 - 12:23 PM, said:

Wait, it's not just going to auto-adjust from 1-4, and 6-8 to have 1-7 unlocked? Won't that trigger an invalid skill tree warning? For example, when you unequip Consumable Slot nodes and haven't removed the Consumables, it invalidates the 'mech. Removing AMS or Jump Jets or ECM just triggers a build warning if you have those nodes activated.

I can't answer that question definitively, but I'm interpreting Matt and Mark to mean, yes, it will work initially even if the actual chain/path is broken without being invalid. But you won't be able to unskill a tree (like all of range) and then reskill just the off-handed numbers you had unlocked before. If one is missing in the middle, you'd need to buy it to reach the later ones again, though you already own them so you won't have to pay for them. Maybe Matt will hop in here to clarify that.

The main concern of PGI's appears to be ensuring continuity with existing builds if you don't touch the skill tree yourself.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 07 April 2022 - 12:40 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

martian, on 07 April 2022 - 12:37 PM, said:

I guess that you are right.

You can still play them to earn cbills and xp for Skill Points (SP) if you don't have any. I'm thinking they might give us all free SP when this comes out, or as rewards for an event around that time so it might be unnecessary.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Phil just posted what appears to be an hour long review and Q&A.
https://mwomercs.com...58#entry6452458

[Stargazzer811]

Ok, having now sat and watched the entire video, I can confidently say that I like what I am seeing. The event que idea sounds much more interesting than it previously did, and I am thoroughly enjoying the skill tree rework. It will definitely allow for better build optimization, and since none of the values are changing there shouldn't be too many balance issues. The color coded quirks are nice, not something I was entirely looking for but I am not against QOL changes if they are beneficial to all in some way.

Also, might we get the ability to change laser colors in the future? Even if its purely a client side change, I would adore the ability to finally get rid of the urine yellow ERML/MPLs that the Clan's use for some nice mint green ones.

[Dardanthian]

The purposed changes look really great. Simplifying the design is a great idea. How are you guys planning to onboard new players with all these great changes? I feel like this will change the game dramatically, and there should be some advertising.

Edited by Dardanthian, 07 April 2022 - 01:31 PM.

[Vorpal Puppy]

Looks like good changes to me. Not so sure I agree with what they do and don't have buried behind other nodes though. I saw that 'Advanced Zoom' node sitting there by itself. Snipers don't need any extra help right now - that feature needs to be buried behind the longest list of unrelated pre-requisites.

[Kanil]

TheCaptainJZ, on 07 April 2022 - 12:38 PM, said:

I can't answer that question definitively, but I'm interpreting Matt and Mark to mean, yes, it will work initially even if the actual chain/path is broken without being invalid.

That seems really weird when it comes to things like radar derp and speed tweak.

Right now you can get 3 levels of derp locked behind 1 level of sensor range, but going forward it's going to take 5 levels of sensor range...

So if I get my derp now and just leave it alone, I get it for 4 nodes cheaper than anyone will be able to get it post-tree rework?

[minnowzzz]

Kanil, on 07 April 2022 - 01:37 PM, said:

That seems really weird when it comes to things like radar derp and speed tweak.

Right now you can get 3 levels of derp locked behind 1 level of sensor range, but going forward it's going to take 5 levels of sensor range...

So if I get my derp now and just leave it alone, I get it for 4 nodes cheaper than anyone will be able to get it post-tree rework?

I think allowing people to use their mechs without having to completely reskill everything is worth having a few weird edge cases

[C337Skymaster]

Kanil, on 07 April 2022 - 01:37 PM, said:

That seems really weird when it comes to things like radar derp and speed tweak.

Right now you can get 3 levels of derp locked behind 1 level of sensor range, but going forward it's going to take 5 levels of sensor range...

So if I get my derp now and just leave it alone, I get it for 4 nodes cheaper than anyone will be able to get it post-tree rework?

I'm hoping "no". If this works correctly (and I have no idea if it will), if you drop your Hill Climb nodes, the game will evaluate the entire skill tree for errors and invalidate your setup until all errors are addressed.

Please, please, let me be right about that, or the new tree will be SO broken.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Kanil, on 07 April 2022 - 01:37 PM, said:

That seems really weird when it comes to things like radar derp and speed tweak.

Right now you can get 3 levels of derp locked behind 1 level of sensor range, but going forward it's going to take 5 levels of sensor range...

So if I get my derp now and just leave it alone, I get it for 4 nodes cheaper than anyone will be able to get it post-tree rework?

Yes and no. You've spent those 4 nodes on something else currently that you probably don't want?

C337Skymaster, on 07 April 2022 - 01:47 PM, said:

I'm hoping "no". If this works correctly (and I have no idea if it will), if you drop your Hill Climb nodes, the game will evaluate the entire skill tree for errors and invalidate your setup until all errors are addressed.

Please, please, let me be right about that, or the new tree will be SO broken.

Probably this.

[Sawk]

WOW you get quickplay for nubs, and faction for pro, but what if i choose 2 mechs, ohh darn its an EVENT, ok i for ONE can do this, do have the mechs for this -------- ?

SAWK PS i hope your of CLAN, born to lead, Born to combat, LOL its a game folks play along : )

[Znail]

I really like most of these updates, except one. The color coding of the bonuses are a waste of time, at least from my perspective. And as I understand it so was the original request to make it easier to see what the stock quirks were and that is the important part still. The pop up where you get the total bonuses when you mouse over the mech should be just stock quirks. That would still leave the zoomed in more detailed view where the total bonuses are shown for those that want to see them (use the feature the dev didn't know about). I never look at them anyway as what matters to me is the stock quirks as those impact what the mech is good at and how to build it and the final values like actual armor points, move speed, range of my weapons, cooldown of my weapons etc. The bonus % is not that interesting nor important. It's annoying that you have to check the store to see the current stock quirks for a mech.

[Big-G]

My thoughts:

• I like it, it at least gives you the ability to focus only on the nodes you need, not have to add "fluff" nodes just to get where you want to go.
  
• All I can see in my future is reskilling 706 mechs

[Nesutizale]

The skilltree will be interesting to see how well it works in practice. Something I can allready say, please make the purple brighter. Its something that bothered me for a long time but I have a hard time reading that.
Overall make sure that every color has a high contrast to the background for better readability.

I will also be interested in teh Event Q. Since quickplay got me bored and I am on an MWO pause, haveing a fun event in a month and then do something else would be the right thing for me.

Big-G, on 07 April 2022 - 02:35 PM, said:

All I can see in my future is reskilling 706 mechs

They said all mechs will behavie like they do now because your current setup will be taken over. So only if you want to reskill you would have to go into it.

Personaly I think most people will reskill their current Meta and Favorite mechs and do the rest if they have time or just want to play something different. Maybe for an event.

[KodiakGW]

So, looks like removing a lot of the ‘gating’ nodes. Something I was pushing for prior to original implementation. Wonder if we’ll hear from all the “But, min-max!!” forum warriors. If they do chime in, I’ll just say “Change for change sake” - one of their other arguments.

Looks like still keeping total Speed Tweak at 7.5% instead of upping back to 10% (2% per node instead of 1.5%) where it was in the old system. Discouraging.

Also, Event Mode Queue actually being a separate queue while keeping 12v12 SoupQ active at the same time. Wonder how many I’ve argued with will be chiming in how adding another queue is going to kill the game. As it sounds, may only interest me when it is 8v8 and limiting groups. Which sounds like it will be that very few times.

At least I got to be proven right about there still being enough programmers available on staff still working in Cryengine.

[Big-G]

Nesutizale, on 07 April 2022 - 02:38 PM, said:

They said all mechs will behavie like they do now because your current setup will be taken over. So only if you want to reskill you would have to go into it.

Personaly I think most people will reskill their current Meta and Favorite mechs and do the rest if they have time or just want to play something different. Maybe for an event.

Problem is... I play each and every one of them

[ambosen]

On one hand I can tell what they were trying to accomplish, but at the same time I can see some unintentional problems this'll create. Not the least of which is the fact that it's effectively just the same chart only broken up a different way. They haven't said anything yet on if the number of skill points available to you per has changed or will change, either.

The current skill system lets you use 91 skill points out of 237 nodes. I'm not positive, but it looks like the number of skill nodes in this new system is likely identical to the previous system. That's both a good and bad. Good, because it doesn't leave players with an even greater problem of excess skill points (those nine left over if you ever buy the 100 pack get on some people's nerves I know) Bad, because it really hasn't functionally simplified anything as has allegedly been what a lot of people are demanding. All that's really changed is the manner of display, and some of the skill's placements. Some skills now take more to unlock, but most now take significantly less.

One of the biggest strengths of the current skill system is that a lot of times you don't need to unlock everything in a specific skill path to get the exact skill you want. Yes, you're often sacrificing peak possible performance in certain skill aspects to do that, but at the same time, it's an option, and this "penalty" in name only usually encourages further specialization and more experimentation. For example, it's pretty rare you see people maxing out radar deprevation, but maxing out targeting speed and ECM nodes is pretty common amongst missile boat players.

So yeah. Overall, I'd say my feelings are mixed on this skill tree change proposal. Don't get me wrong, there's parts I like about it, but I do worry it's going to unintentionally change around what I personally consider to be one of the previous skill system's greatest strengths: the ability to make sacrifices in one area inexhange for earlier or sometimes only possible because of those sacrifices gains in others. Range, head reduction, and cooldown nodes, for example. If you try to max out all of those, you'll usually end up sacrificing survivability, sensor performance, or movement related skills you may want. Sometimes additional weapons related skills.

With this one a new mech skill selection could easily fill out several smaller trees right off, and end up depending upon their build sacrificing nothing.

I dunno, I'll have to give it some more thought to see what other positives and negatives this approach has.

[Agent Super Chicken]

I was worried the new system would undo ALL my past hours of effort, and/or be terrible, and this... is not as bad as I feared.
Yay!
Re-balancing?:
All of this is resting on the unspoken assumption that you might buff some values a bit in the future, so everybody doesn't pick the same skill tree, right? Would you please indicate if that is a true or false assumption on my part?
Hill Climb:
I'm not seeing Hill Climb, and I'm bummed because it widens the gap between JJ poptart and non-JJ mechs who hill peek - I actually did use that node on some builds. Hopefully it gets added automatically to all mechs? And then I'm sure players of certain mechs are panicking about fall damage nodes right now; yikes!
Trial Mechs:
This widens the gap between optimal mechs and unskilled ones - increasing the urgency to get skill points onto trial mechs, especially for newbies. Can you update us on that?
Event Modes:
For new players, huge barrier to entry if they don't have 150 mechs and can't optimally participate - will you give advance warning of upcoming events so people can shop the sales a couple weeks before and start saving up/skill up?
If it were announced that AS7 was the mech for the event, the newbies would need time to save up, a sale to buy it and engine and some of the heavier weapons, and then more time after that to get skill points up, prior to the event.
Why? Because you just widened the gap between unskilled and skilled mechs. And the gap between inexperienced players and pros is VAST, and there are unlikely to be a huge number of tier 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 players in the event queue... so this could end up being the Solaris mis-match fun-killer noob-farming simulator, all over again, but on steroids.
General, for info:
Since we're doing some guessing and reading between the lines, can you give us some updates to manage expectations, on what related stuff to this you might be discussing subsequent to this change, and rough timelines, to manage expectations? So we have an idea of how our dialogue with you will go for any unanticipated problems that arise and how to smooth them down?

[Thorqemada]

For your entertainement purpose - VLDL about Skilltrees:
Overwhelming RPG mechanics - YouTube

"Its not exactly rocketscience! If anything its more biomolecular engineering crossed with 18th century nautical navigation, I guess..."

Edited by Thorqemada, 07 April 2022 - 03:46 PM.

[Agent Super Chicken]

Obviously it's a bummer to have spent so much money and time grinding out those SPs when if we'd just waited to now, we could have got them for 500/25K instead of 800/45K... but some warning is better than no warning, so thanks at least for this much of a heads-up.
I hope if future changes are possible or probable, you might give us some heads up there, so we can plan out what we want to do before we waste our grinding hours headed towards the wrong goalposts?
Aside:
I'm hoping the first event is 12v12 on Polar LURMlands classic, with only Assaults and Lights
But it would be wonderful if Solaris maps could be re-made with 12 spawn points. Anybody up for CAVE BEARS? 12v12 Kodiaks in the Caves?
Seriously though, 12 spawn points on each Solaris maps would be lovely, even if it's not optimal, so that private lobbies can go do funky stuff together. Other games I've played, like Halo 4, had such customization that was a lot of fun for friends - 12v1 cat and mouse games where winner is it next, etc., etc.
And we'd play a dozen such silly games EVERY WEEK. In variety. You guys can't deliver it at that rate to us, but we made our own fun - and you can do a version of that on your event queue.
Opening 12 spawn points on those maps could be so much fun, both for your official event queue, and for private lobby shenanigans. Hope you're able to spare a minute to take a stab at that. Or communicate to us if this is even possible.