72 replies to this topic

[Knownswift]

If it isn't better matchmaking it is a waste of time and money.

While I believe this will be extremely positive for new player experience, it's a tiny ancillary problem especially when compared to a poorly performing core service.

[King Carrot]

This is a hard one. Better understanding is good, but not having to pay the tax of useless nodes is going to make min/maxing a lot easier and make it a lot simpler to max out the important stuff. Some sort of tradeoff thing would be good I think.

[FupDup]

Karl23, on 09 April 2022 - 10:53 AM, said:

This is a hard one. Better understanding is good, but not having to pay the tax of useless nodes is going to make min/maxing a lot easier and make it a lot simpler to max out the important stuff. Some sort of tradeoff thing would be good I think.

More tradeoff would be present if either the crap nodes got buffed and/or got consolidated into much smaller numbers so that you'd only need a few points to max them out (thus can use them as the "cherry on top" of a good build if you have spare points).

[Ballistic Panicmode]

Am I the first to notice that most of the operations tree is missing from this version?

[YueFei]

pattonesque, on 07 April 2022 - 06:02 PM, said:

I would love things along this line for mechs like the -3L, or equipment like BAP. It'd be cool to introduce some kind of skill-based element to every piece of equipment

Oh yeah that'd be great. Less in the way of simple passive gear, with more interactivity required. Like, as a lowered barrier to entry and for new player experience, it should still be useful if you equip it and forget about it. But there should definitely be more that a player can actively do to get more performance out of something like BAP, raising the skill ceiling on it.

And, if the Skill Trees were reorganized into separate Role-based trees, each role-based tree would have nodes that you could choose to take if you equipped the relevant equipment. So a Combat Support / InfoWar Tree might also have nodes that enhance BAP. If you don't have BAP equipped, you just don't take those nodes.

I think Role-based trees would also prevent "homogenization" to some extent, where there's some stuff that almost everybody takes, and thus those nodes become less of a customization choice and more of a "tax". Like, almost everyone is putting lots of points into Firepower and Survival.

For example, a Brawler-role Tree could have nodes that enhance weapons velocity/cooldown, but which apply only for the brawler weapons (AC20/SRM/HGauss/MPL/SPL/etc). Now you can independently tune those nodes without worrying about "cross-pollination" where a mid-range dakka or sniper build tries to use those same nodes and becomes too strong.

And, in the same vein as wanting user-activated abilities instead of passive performance boosts, a Brawler-role Tree could feature near-end-of-tree nodes that give you stuff like an arm-strapped shield which you have to angle correctly to absorb incoming fire. You could choose which arm to strap it to (left or right arm). Think bolt-ons, but actually affecting gameplay, but which requires user-input to make the most of it. If you just stare at enemies, that shield is worthless. It's more interesting than simple armor+structure hitpoint inflation via skill tree. Properly-used, that shield lets you pull off moves that can't be done by simple torso-twisting, because arm yaw movement is much faster, allowing you to use independent arm movement to shield and then quickly open up for snapshots, and do it faster than you could twist back and forth 90 degrees. I guess it wouldn't be suitable for mechs with no lower-arm actuators, but I'm just spit-balling ideas here.

Could also have in the Brawler Tree some kind of hard-kill active protection system which requires the player to charge it (like Gauss) and angle it to face the correct sector from which you are about to receive incoming fire. Maybe if you're a Starcraft 2 multi-tasking god you equip both the shield and the APS. Or if you're a mere mortal you only equip one of them.

The idea would be that the core decision-making a player makes is choosing between different nodes within a particular role-based tree, and having to decide how much they want to dabble in the other off-role trees. E.g., if you're a brawler, you definitely invest into the Brawler-role Tree, but do you go all-out and pick up all the Brawler nodes? Or do you save some of that to pick up nodes in like the InfoWar Tree so that you can use that to help build situational awareness?

Edited by YueFei, 09 April 2022 - 11:26 AM.

[King Carrot]

FupDup, on 09 April 2022 - 10:56 AM, said:

More tradeoff would be present if either the crap nodes got buffed and/or got consolidated into much smaller numbers so that you'd only need a few points to max them out (thus can use them as the "cherry on top" of a good build if you have spare points).

Yeah of course. It's just that "good build" means pretty much the same thing for most mechs. Not saying it's easy to fix this though.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Knownswift, on 09 April 2022 - 08:39 AM, said:

If it isn't better matchmaking it is a waste of time and money.

While I believe this will be extremely positive for new player experience, it's a tiny ancillary problem especially when compared to a poorly performing core service.

Yeah, but its an EASY fix and quick to implement. The harder fixes require more effort and time.

Ballistic Panicmode, on 09 April 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

Am I the first to notice that most of the operations tree is missing from this version?

I don't think its missing, I just think we didn't get a screenshot of it. Its between screenshots #3 and #4.

[xlrdallas]

so we are not getting a refund on all the skill points and money we spent, to skill up all the mechs we have, we have to regrind all the mechs again ??

[pattonesque]

xlrdallas, on 09 April 2022 - 03:48 PM, said:

so we are not getting a refund on all the skill points and money we spent, to skill up all the mechs we have, we have to regrind all the mechs again ??

not quite -- every node you have unlocked and applied currently will still be that way when the new system hits. You'll just need to buy new nodes if you want to unlock new bits of the tree

[Meep Meep]

xlrdallas, on 09 April 2022 - 03:48 PM, said:

so we are not getting a refund on all the skill points and money we spent, to skill up all the mechs we have, we have to regrind all the mechs again ??

As the previous poster said all your current nodes will still be active but now scattered around the different sections. Most players with a finished skill tree should have plenty of xp banked on their mech so that unlocking any new nodes should be easy.

[Mark Yore]

Meep Meep, on 09 April 2022 - 06:46 PM, said:

As the previous poster said all your current nodes will still be active but now scattered around the different sections. Most players with a finished skill tree should have plenty of xp banked on their mech so that unlocking any new nodes should be easy.

Realistically it is just a matter of swapping nodes if you skipped one.

Say you got Velocity 2,3, and 4 without getting Velocity 1. If you wanted to add Velocity 5 you'd need to go back and select Velocity 1,2,3 and 4 before adding Velocity 5. There's no net requirement to change nodes following the transfer, just a need to do it in sequence if you're updating your skill trees.

However it does mean that the ability to drop in higher level skills will change how we prioritise skills. So finishing all of the Armor nodes before starting on the Structure nodes will be a thing. If you have a missile boat you'll probably fill the six missile skills before anything else - the same with laser and ballistic skills. It means you won't have to go to the end of the skill tree - 10 nodes - to get Magazine Capacity 2, for instance.

[Dionnsai]

Removing the skill wall from nodes which buff lockon weapons, but not doing the same for countermeasures feels very arbitrary and handholds for a set of weapons that already hold your hand by their very nature.

Edited by Dionnsai, 10 April 2022 - 07:23 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Dionnsai, on 10 April 2022 - 07:14 AM, said:

Removing the skill wall from nodes which buff lockon weapons, but not doing the same for countermeasures feels very arbitrary and handholds for a set of weapons that already hold your hand by their very nature.

We'll see when we play it out. But I'm not worried about the theorycrafting just yet. Yes, the weapon you are worried about gets cheaper to maximize. But the weapons you're NOT worried about also get cheaper. Every weapon got cheaper. So spend some of those points on the counter to the weapon that you're worried about!

[Duke Falcon]

There is one thing need to really clarified about the revamp of the skill trees:

What with those mechs what already skilled up to 91/91? Could we get back the SPs spent on "filler nodes" to reallocate them? If no then the revamp is a big @$$r@p€ for those whom have tons of lots of skilled builds...

[Der Geisterbaer]

Duke Falcon, on 10 April 2022 - 07:48 AM, said:

There is one thing need to really clarified about the revamp of the skill trees:

You certainly should listen to what they tell you here because that video actually clarifies what you're asking there.

Duke Falcon, on 10 April 2022 - 07:48 AM, said:

What with those mechs what already skilled up to 91/91?

Those mechs (just like any mech that is anywhere between 1/91 and 90/91) will keep their current skill nodes. That means all nodes you actually want and those you might have taken as mere "fillers". They also said "no refunds", so ...

Duke Falcon, on 10 April 2022 - 07:48 AM, said:

Could we get back the SPs spent on "filler nodes" to reallocate them?

... that's a clear "nope". While you'll certainly be able to "unskill" those "filler nodes" you will have to buy nodes that you haven't unlocked previously with new SP.

Duke Falcon, on 10 April 2022 - 07:48 AM, said:

If no then the revamp is a big @$$r@p€ for those whom have tons of lots of skilled builds...

Let me put it this way: Most people that actually have "tons of skilled builds" are somewhat likely to also have some reserve XP on each of these machines as well as at least "some" GXP that can be spent on SP for new / different nodes (at their now also reduced cost).
Will there be some cases where you'll have to "grind" towards the new 91/91 node distribution of your liking? Certainly! But that doesn't qualify as what you just spelled out in 1337.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 April 2022 - 08:24 AM.

[Curccu]

Dionnsai, on 10 April 2022 - 07:14 AM, said:

Removing the skill wall from nodes which buff lockon weapons, but not doing the same for countermeasures feels very arbitrary and handholds for a set of weapons that already hold your hand by their very nature.

IMO silly comparison to compare lock on weapons and their countermeasures (and actually talking about ECM which has other roles as well as being anti-lockon system and not talking about AMS overload which seems to be available without any walls) while totally ignoring that there isn't skill wall to any other weapon buff nodes either (laser duration, uac jams etc).

[RickySpanish]

Not sure I think their approach is a good idea. If you look at skill trees in games they tend to also be a puzzle of some sort, and they are often designed to filter players down particular paths by picking up skills that compliment each other. PGI's solution seems to just be to give players literally everything they want with no real requirement for thinking or considering trade offs. They also didn't reduce the freaking node count, and the new UI is still hilariously ugly. Seriously, they just needed to condense some of the existing nodes. Sigh.

Edited by RickySpanish, 10 April 2022 - 03:51 PM.

[Akamia Terizen]

I wonder if my canon/stock ’Mechs will actually be worthwhile machines with the new skill tree.

… No? Okay…

A guy can dream.

[Psycho da Clown]

why even have a skill tree if you're just going to dumb it down and give everyone everything they want without much tradeoff to speak of? surely they could have figured out some other way to appease the PPC snipers some other way?

waste of developer's energy. then again, guess this simplified skill tree didn't take much time nor brainpower to begin with.

brainless cookie cutter builds for everyone!

[pbiggz]

Psycho da Clown, on 11 April 2022 - 04:59 PM, said:

why even have a skill tree if you're just going to dumb it down and give everyone everything they want without much tradeoff to speak of? surely they could have figured out some other way to appease the PPC snipers some other way?

waste of developer's energy. then again, guess this simplified skill tree didn't take much time nor brainpower to begin with.

brainless cookie cutter builds for everyone!

You arent being victimized.