72 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

ScrapIron Prime, on 08 April 2022 - 07:37 AM, said:

I'm someone who always takes Seismic Sensors and 60-100 radar Deprivation, on the theory that this saves more armor for later so it is effectively akin to the survival tree. The new skill system keeps these skills expensive, so there must be something to that line of thinking (at least in the minds of the Devs).

So how does it compare? Current system, to get full seismic and radar derp costs is 20 points. In the new system, it is 17 points, as you have to take the entire Target Info tree and nearly all of the Sensor Range tree. If I want only 60% radar derp plus full seismic, it is 15 points in both systems.

So the new system saves me a few points if I want the full package, and is the same if I want 60% derp. Might as well spend the other 2 points for 100% radar derp, because the stuff is magic. The five point tax in front of radar deprivation is a lot less than it used to be, so LRM boats will have an even harder time under this system.

Of course, if you're not into seismic sensors (why WOULDN'T you want to see the piranha behind you before it fires???) you can save yourself 4-7 points, instead of the original system which saves only 1-2. So there IS a real savings there.

Yeah siesmic is going to be a mandatory buy for all mechs, I bet.
And target info gathering is criminally underrated.

[Mark Yore]

Suddenly Pitch and Yaw are going to be worthwhile additions to builds.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Mark Yore, on 08 April 2022 - 08:25 AM, said:

Suddenly Pitch and Yaw are going to be worthwhile additions to builds.

Its torso pitch you can never get enough of. I can turn my feet if I need to shoot to the left, but if I have to shoot UP that's a lot more footwork!

That said, at only 2% per node, I wouldn't be surprised if VERY few people take it. I think things like Shock Absorbance and Vent Calibration are effectively going to become abandonware.

[KaptinOrk]

TheCaptainJZ, on 08 April 2022 - 06:42 AM, said:

I don't see how they would do this, but they should decrease the number of nodes down from 91 to master a mech since you can min/max a lot better. The reason the old system was so convoluted was to directly nerf min/maxing. Now that you can min/max, it would make more sense to reduce how many skill points you actually get in totality since you don't have to blow any on "filler." That would require some kind of refund to be fair, though. Short of that, they might reduce the bonuses of some of the nodes, or, as has always been the case, certain nodes are expected to be allocated on all mechs and other balance changes are made universally to reign in the buffs by the change in skill tree.

I think reducing the maximum skills would be a good idea, it would reign in the most heavily min-maxed trees. I wouldn't be opposed to allowing certain chassis access to higher skill caps, though, they're already kinda doing that with some of the quirk passes.

[1453 R]

Spoilers Mk. II: reducing skill cap would lead to more "min/maxing", not less.

What you all are talking about is reducing power creep and trying to get 'Mechs to stay as strong as they are now. Not really gonna happen. Allowing better focus and eliminating dead weight points that have never been anything but a meme anyways (has anyone in the history of MWO ever thought "wow, I'm really glad I have all these Quick Ignition nodes!"?) means people will get what they feel they need more easily. That allows them points to spend on what they want, nodes that would be considered frivilous wastes in a stricter system.

At 91 points, the eight nodes you spend in Jump Jets to improve your jump capability is less than ten percent of your skill allocation - an acceptable deviation from The Meta. If you only have 40 points to spend, instead? Those eight nodes are a full twenty percent of your allocation nearly a quarter of your skill build. Absolutely not okay when there's things like RaDerp, Heat Gen, or Extra Ammo to buy.

The more you cut away at room to include less-impactful things in your skill tree, the fewer people you'll see running less impactful things. People already mostly ignore Mobility, Jump Jets, and Sensors in favor of mximizing their Firepower, Survival, and Operations. Why make the choice to split into those more interesting and fun trees even harder than it already is?

[Meep Meep]

ScrapIron Prime, on 08 April 2022 - 08:42 AM, said:

I think things like Shock Absorbance and Vent Calibration are effectively going to become abandonware.

Shock absorbance is a go to skill for my skirmisher lights because sometimes the only escape is to jump off a cliff and you want to save as much leg armor as possible when you hit. Been mocking up some builds and as long as the points stay at 91 its going to transform some of my mechs performance.

[1453 R]

[LordNothing]

pros:

less gating.
faster allocation feature.
cost reduction.
no refund shenanigans.
no having to respec all the things.

cons:
still too many nodes.
still some gating.
no new features/more node variety.
no merging of redundant trees (jj is mobility and most ops can go into other trees).
builds will continue to use the same layouts for the most part, doesn't add new build possibilities to the game.
too far into development for constructive criticism to matter (this was a problem with rocket launchers, solaris, and a few more fail mode features).


i think in this case the pros are acceptable. but if some of the cons can still be addressed i think it would be better. some are tradeoffs of course and cant be done. a lot can be done with merging redundant nodes and different gating mechanics. like having locked skills that require activating a number of other skills within the same tree to unlock), that way you can grab stuff you can actually use rather than have to traverse the intermediary nodes even if you dont want them. these of course come with more tradeoffs that you might have to put more effort into processing everyone's skill trees to convert to the new system or provide a refund and reset pass. id rather not have to do that, but it would be better in the long run especially if its easier to use in general.

[ShiverMeRivets]

The total number of skill points needs to be reduced from 91 to something lower.
Otherwise, reduce the bonuses that each node gives (I prefer the former).

Consumables nodes are very powerful - the should cost double, i.e, 2 skill points per node, otherwise every mech I own will be running with 2 strikes, 2 UAVs and 2 coolshots (for hot builds) all maximized.

Is this skill tree change the suggestion of the Cauldron? They really like a power creep.

[Meep Meep]

Power creep isn't always a bad thing as long as it applies evenly to all mechs and the skill tree changes certainly fall into that category. Power creep is normally viewed as bad when it obsoletes some mechs and elevates others.

[Curccu]

ShiverMeRivets, on 09 April 2022 - 12:57 AM, said:

Consumables nodes are very powerful - the should cost double, i.e, 2 skill points per node, otherwise every mech I own will be running with 2 strikes, 2 UAVs and 2 coolshots (for hot builds) all maximized.

Consumable tree takes 16 nodes now and 16 nodes then to get all of them (not including Enchanced NARC and Capture Assist)

And pretty much all of my mechs run with two strikes or UAVs and coolshots anyway, unless PIR-1 or other heatneutral build. So not that huge change.

[cazeral]

1453 R, on 08 April 2022 - 06:13 AM, said:

Spoilers: you fix low population by making improvements to the game that make old players want to come back and try out the changes. Things like making the skill tree less of an obnoxious performance tax and allowing people to take things they want to take whilst changing the tree in a way that allows them to better expand and alter it in the future.

Old players left because they were fed up with being lied to, having changes enforced that very few wanted and by an utter loss of faith in PGI. Once confidence and trust is lost, you will not get the vast majority of any population to go back to what they once previously enjoyed; pastures greener and investment in other products reinforces the minimal chance of returning.

Meep Meep, on 09 April 2022 - 01:00 AM, said:

Power creep isn't always a bad thing as long as it applies evenly to all mechs and the skill tree changes certainly fall into that category. Power creep is normally viewed as bad when it obsoletes some mechs and elevates others.

And on that note, Clan mechs are most likely become the way to go again with weight/range and damage bonuses. Quirks and balances will be pretty much wiped out if you can focus more closely on the power options.

[Curccu]

cazeral, on 09 April 2022 - 01:43 AM, said:

And on that note, Clan mechs are most likely become the way to go again with weight/range and damage bonuses. Quirks and balances will be pretty much wiped out if you can focus more closely on the power options.

I don't think change is that huge, my and I think most T1 players at least already have most of their nodes in weapons and armor, depending on build operations and consumables, for fatter mechs at least...

[Ralgas]

Meep Meep, on 09 April 2022 - 01:00 AM, said:

Power creep isn't always a bad thing as long as it applies evenly to all mechs and the skill tree changes certainly fall into that category. Power creep is normally viewed as bad when it obsoletes some mechs and elevates others.

Here's the thing though, firepower is the big example of where the new one penalises multi weapon type builds which currently benefit (to an extent).

Snipers now being able to take a 1 point zoom and forget the prerequisites to then pump into velocity and cooldown?


It's not evenly fair, and absolutely favours boating single weapon types and quirk monsters even worse than what we have now. that said really need to see what shakes out before i call end of times.

[Ralgas]

ScrapIron Prime, on 08 April 2022 - 08:42 AM, said:

Its torso pitch you can never get enough of. I can turn my feet if I need to shoot to the left, but if I have to shoot UP that's a lot more footwork!

That said, at only 2% per node, I wouldn't be surprised if VERY few people take it. I think things like Shock Absorbance and Vent Calibration are effectively going to become abandonware.

it more depends on your mech. King crab and most high fixed arm designs are going to have lights wondering wtf hit them with torso speed. urbie pilots will enjoy getting other lights to almost run away facing with twist and as you mentioned others crave yaw.

Gotta say, beyond the obvious " X build is the same because it needed xyz points any way while Y got that much better by lost filler" a lot isn't going to be real obvious on go live day, simply due to the sheer amount of tweaks and spare points on the variants with the volume of mechs to try em on.

Edited by Ralgas, 09 April 2022 - 04:07 AM.

[w0qj]

Whilst the current (March 2022) Skill Tree is a monster of skill tree maze:

==> Enabling [Advanced_Zoom] should have higher opportunity cost!

~I feel that the currently proposed "1 Skill Point" for Advanced_Zoom is a bit too much.
Every wannabe sniper would get it, with very little opportunity cost.
Heck, using Large Pulse Lasers with Advanced_Zoom helps you target enemy torso parts much better!

~I propose that Advanced_Zoom takes 3 or 4 Skill Points to access, and be rolled back into the proposed/revised Range/Sensor tree (the one with Sensor Range / Radar Deprivation / ECM).

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yeahbut… every wannabe sniper uses advanced zoom for every shot and is therefore totally blind to the things that are happening right in front of them. It’s kinda sad, really.

Plus it was only ever a 4 point skill buy before, making it only 1 point now isn’t the issue. (Aaaaa, 3 more points, we’re all dooooooomed!) The entire sensor tree is getting cheaper, not just that one skill. Anyone who put any points into it ever is getting a break.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 09 April 2022 - 06:30 AM.

[Knownswift]

I appreciate the heavy reduction in pointless tax nodes, but I don't see how this is much better, and it sure as hell isn't news about a matchmaker.

[w0qj]

I've just put forward new abilities for Skill Tree proposal elsewhere, but here it is again:
https://mwomercs.com...g/page__st__140

- - - - - - - - - -
Actually I smell an opportunity to revamp the fixed 91-Skill-Node system as we know it:
(Pls note MWO cannot reduce the 91 skill node number, given the amount of resources available).

1) 5x Shock Absorbance skill nodes ==> change to +2% Flanking Damage (hit enemy from side/behind)
7x Hard Brake skill nodes ==> Start ECM/ECCM warefare!

2) Current 'padded' nodes can be cut in half, freeing even more skill nodes for new unique mech skills!
15x Range skill nodes ==> 7x Ranged skill nodes (frees up 8 skill nodes)
16x Cooldown nodes ==> 8x Cooldown nodes (frees up 8 skill nodes)
14x Heat Gen nodes ==> 7x Heat gen nodes (frees up 7 skill nodes)
25x Jump Jet skill tree ==> I think this can be reduced to 12x skill nodes (frees up 13 skill nodes).

Therefore above frees up 22 to 35 skill nodes for entirely new skills that is open to imagination!
(Specialist skills for Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault mechs, anyone?)

Knownswift, on 09 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

I appreciate the heavy reduction in pointless tax nodes, but I don't see how this is much better, and it sure as hell isn't news about a matchmaker.

Edited by w0qj, 09 April 2022 - 06:56 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Knownswift, on 09 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

I appreciate the heavy reduction in pointless tax nodes, but I don't see how this is much better, and it sure as hell isn't news about a matchmaker.

Because this change is a quick and easy project for developers. they don't have to make anything new, they just have to rearrange everything that already exists. Coding-wise its trivial. So it goes first.

A new matchmaker, that's a lot more of a deliberative project. new logic has to be stress tested.