27 replies to this topic

[Knownswift]

C337Skymaster, on 21 May 2022 - 10:59 AM, said:

None of this is compelling reasoning, sorry.

Stock builds could easily be put together based on the fluff but not suck and it would only benefit this game and the series.

"boardgame" is a really tired argument.

[Ekson Valdez]

This thread was moved to Feature Suggestions

[C337Skymaster]

Knownswift, on 21 May 2022 - 04:20 PM, said:

None of this is compelling reasoning, sorry.

Stock builds could easily be put together based on the fluff but not suck and it would only benefit this game and the series.

"boardgame" is a really tired argument.

Again, they only "suck" because this game hasn't been implemented correctly. If we followed the TT ruleset more closely, a lot of the stock builds would improve dramatically in their performance. Either way, the lore builds are very clearly and specifically defined, thus they are what they are, and PGI imported them as close to 1:1 as they could.

[Hobbles v]

TheCaptainJZ, on 20 May 2022 - 07:37 AM, said:

Yeah, is this possible? It's been suggested before. It would be the easiest way to boost the performance with what sounds like the least amount of effort. And everyone can use them. The whole idea of a trail mech being weaker was to incentivize players to buy mechs with their own money. I don't think that's the paradigm we're dealing with anymore, 10 years later. What will get people to pay money is if they want to support the game so let's make it as fun as we can.

Well also back in the day Skilling a mech was far less of a jump in power. Fully skilled mechs ran faster and cooler. Now with modern skill trees they are faster, tougher, cooler running, more range, faster cooldowns, better sensors and even jumpjets.

[Hobbles v]

C337Skymaster, on 21 May 2022 - 06:35 AM, said:

Noooo, not an option. The "stock builds" are the Record Sheet configurations (adapted for double-armor points, forward facing weapons, and no melee) that define each 'mech. Hardpoint inflation is something PGI took upon themselves to increase variety, especially among some 'mechs that vary very little from their original factory build (Wolfhound, Black Knight, etc), but the weapon selection, location, armor distribution, equipment, etc, is all defined by the record sheets that describe each 'mech.

For example, the RFL-3N Rifleman. Notoriously hot-running and poorly armored.


The solution I've proposed many times for this is to develop a "tech tree" of sorts, that assigns each 'mech to the faction where it was most common, or assigns it a "generic" label so it shows up in all the factions. From there, a new player is prompted to join a faction, and gets to pick from any of the 'mechs available to that faction. They can't customize their 'mechs until they purchase one to own, but they can pick from all the newer designs that have DHS, etc, and aren't stuck with just the old SHS variants.

Part of the reason stock builds get hated on so much is that the power creep in this game is extremely real, and has left them very far behind. Speed Creep could also be said to be a thing, such that slower 'mechs are quite literally getting left behind, as well.

Stock builds have been bad in every MechWarrior game that you can change the loadout in. Customizing your loadouts has been one of the major draws to any mech game. Lore/tabletop builds have no place in MechWarrior, defaulting to them only hurts new player experience/growth and this the franchise as a whole.

As I said earlier. Stock builds don't need to be meta. They just need to not be nightmare bracket builds with no armour, ammo or heatsinks. The stock builds might be better as "lore Inspired". Take a stock build. Improve the mech based on its main weapon (s). Remove the useless stuff and optimize as much as you can around the stock build.

Take the Warhammer 6R stock build. 2ppc, 2 small laser, 2 medium laser, 2 machine guns, 1 SRM6. Standard engine, single heat sinks, under armoured, no Endo/Ferro.

Upgrade to a light engine, add Endo steel and get double heat sinks. Change the weapons to 3 PPCs, 3 mediums lasers and 2 machine guns. Fill Out tonnage with armour and heat sinks. What you get is not meta build. But it is far, far superior to the stock lore build, while maintaining some of the lore flavour by building around the most prominent weapon the mech is known for (the PPCs)

Edited by Hobbles v, 24 May 2022 - 08:48 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

Hobbles v, on 24 May 2022 - 07:25 AM, said:

Stock builds have been bad in every MechWarrior game that you can change the loadout in. Customizing your loadouts has been one of the major draws to any mech game. Lore/tabletop builds have no place in MechWarrior, defaulting to them only hurts new player experience/growth and this the franchise as a whole.

As I said earlier. Stock builds don't need to be meta. They just need to not be nightmare bracket builds with no armour, ammo or heatsinks. The stock builds might be better as "lore Inspired". Take a stock build. Improve the mech based on its main weapon (s). Remove the useless stuff and optimize as much as you can around the stock build.

Take the Warhammer 6R stock build. 2ppc, 2 small laser, 2 medium laser, 2 machine guns, 1 SRM6. Standard engine, single heat sinks, under armoured, no Endo/Ferro.

Upgrade to a light engine, add Endo steel and get double heat sinks. Change the weapons to 3 PPCs, 3 mediums lasers and 2 machine guns. Fill Out tonnage with armour and heat sinks. What you get is not meta build. But it is far, far superior to the stock lore build, while maintaining some of the lore flavour by building around the most prominent weapon the mech is known for (the PPCs)

The WHM-6R is the one IS 'mech that I mastered, 100% stock, under the old Skill Tree system (the original Skill Tree). I kept meaning to "play it a couple matches to get a feel for what it needs, then give it what it needs". I wasn't so hung up on stock purity back then, and was upgrading all my IS tech. I never got around to changing the Warhammer. It performed solidly in every match I played, even with single heat sinks and standard everything, such that it never needed anything extra. The trick to it was to use the PPCs at range, then switch to the torso weapons up close. If you isolated your weapons that way, you could manage the heat and brawl pretty effectively.

That was before we started getting megaquirks, sometime shortly after Grim Plexus was introduced.

Since all of the gigaquirking, particularly of armor, a lot more IS stock builds are becoming more and more viable (The Clan ones always were, with a couple exceptions). The only REAL limitation is how many buttons you have on your mouse, and how good you are at finding specific ones.

Should trial 'mechs have skills on them, so they can keep up? 100%. Should they be stock 'mechs? Also 100%. The gap isn't so much in the weapons as it is in the skill points applied to the 'mechs after ownership. Every 'mech I play sucks when it has no skills. Even the most basic stock 'mech performs halfway decently once it's mastered.

[Hobbles v]

C337Skymaster, on 25 May 2022 - 03:47 AM, said:

The WHM-6R is the one IS 'mech that I mastered, 100% stock, under the old Skill Tree system (the original Skill Tree). I kept meaning to "play it a couple matches to get a feel for what it needs, then give it what it needs". I wasn't so hung up on stock purity back then, and was upgrading all my IS tech. I never got around to changing the Warhammer. It performed solidly in every match I played, even with single heat sinks and standard everything, such that it never needed anything extra. The trick to it was to use the PPCs at range, then switch to the torso weapons up close. If you isolated your weapons that way, you could manage the heat and brawl pretty effectively.

That was before we started getting megaquirks, sometime shortly after Grim Plexus was introduced.

Since all of the gigaquirking, particularly of armor, a lot more IS stock builds are becoming more and more viable (The Clan ones always were, with a couple exceptions). The only REAL limitation is how many buttons you have on your mouse, and how good you are at finding specific ones.

Should trial 'mechs have skills on them, so they can keep up? 100%. Should they be stock 'mechs? Also 100%. The gap isn't so much in the weapons as it is in the skill points applied to the 'mechs after ownership. Every 'mech I play sucks when it has no skills. Even the most basic stock 'mech performs halfway decently once it's mastered.

Ummm no. The vast majority of stock builds are utterly useless. The 6R is one of the better ones, but it's still garbage. Two standard ppcs for mid-range combat is hilariously under gunned while you are putting out 20 damage per shot everything else you're fighting at mid-range is shooting back for 30 to 60 damage. Also all those enemies have better heat sinks and more armor.

It may be masterable in low tier play where most pilots are flailing about. But if you run up against anyone half competent you are at a severe disadvantage. If you think stock mechs are of acceptable ability to compete with customized loadouts you may need to rethink or reassess your understanding of this game because you are flat out wrong.

[C337Skymaster]

Hobbles v, on 25 May 2022 - 06:29 AM, said:

Ummm no. The vast majority of stock builds are utterly useless. The 6R is one of the better ones, but it's still garbage. Two standard ppcs for mid-range combat is hilariously under gunned while you are putting out 20 damage per shot everything else you're fighting at mid-range is shooting back for 30 to 60 damage. Also all those enemies have better heat sinks and more armor.

It may be masterable in low tier play where most pilots are flailing about. But if you run up against anyone half competent you are at a severe disadvantage. If you think stock mechs are of acceptable ability to compete with customized loadouts you may need to rethink or reassess your understanding of this game because you are flat out wrong.

This was before the great Tier Reset, so I was likely Tier 2 at the time. I didn't get to Tier 1 until within a year or so of the reset.

That said, if the aim is "fun" rather than "meta", but the argument is "you have to be Meta in order to have fun", the someone missed a memo somewhere along the line...