53 replies to this topic

[Ebins]

TLDR: With IS being effectively an even match up (actually better in some instances) with clan, why play them?

So, I've been a clanner ever since I started playing Battletech. I guess it's because I started playing way back when the clan's were released. I played the older games after that and every single game since.

With the patches (clan nerfs and IS buffs), I don't see the point in playing clan on MWO any more. In fact, this is why I've take so long of a break from MWO. I have literally over a thousand hours in the game.

IS targeting sensors are now equal to clan. Ok great.
Most clan mechs (unless you get the IIC variants) force you to have XL engines, FF or ES and you can't change that. With the introduction of a nerf to clan XL engines (and buff to IS ones) a long while back, it makes them basically the same as IS XL engines. So, if I want to take an assault (which was my favorite class to play), I'm basically forced to take an XL engine and oops, there goes a side torso.. up goes my heat and yeah, I'm basically in a mess.

Weapons - Apparently, even though the Clans are supposed to be technologically advanced (yay, they can shoot longer range, which only helps for the first few minutes of a match IF there isn't too much cover, but the maps are full of that now), their weapons are hotter, prone to jamming more, slower, chain fire missiles instead of the IS grouping mechanism, etc. Oh, but they're lighter, less bulkier and do a little bit more damage you say? What's the point if the weapons themselves have been nerfed so hard that it really doesn't make a difference? So ok, I can get off one good alpha strike, then have to spend the next minute or so before I can fire anything else. IS weapons, on the other hand (even though smaller range - again which doesn't matter really in most matches) have faster firing lasers, stealth armor, doesn't force you to take XL engines, FF or ES (or heck, even JJ's in some cases). Goodness, you can't even get a single shot AC in a clan. It's either ultra (major jams there even with the skill tree) or basic clan AC which fire a minimum of two shots(Clan AC20). IS gets one and focuses the damage all in one place.

Really, what's the point? Just play them for lore sake or perhaps they're saved for the more "skilled" player to give them a bigger challenge? I know, I know.. LTP, right? Well, most "skilled" players I've witnessed play IS mechs. Gee, I wonder why?

Sorry, I'm staying away from this little toilet show. The single player games are much better IMO. No false "ghost heat," don't have to refurbish your builds every patch due to quirks (which was the reason for the skill tree guys remember? It was to do AWAY with quirks), and the weapons and equipment are more as they should be.

Hey, as a clanner, I'm more than willing to deal with incredible heat increases and such but come on, this is really dumb.

Ok fan boys, come on and flame me. Tell me how wrong I am. I'm waiting.

[FupDup]

For the CXL thing, I don't enjoy the side torso heat spike but let's not pretend that you were gonna be using a STD engine in there even if you had the choice. CXL is still objectively the best engine type in the game no matter how annoying the ST penalty may be.

For FF and ES, almost all Clan Battlemechs (as opposed to Omnimechs) take both when possible and sometimes drop FF if they really need to (rarely need to drop ES). The one annoyance is Omnimechs that mount FF but not ES, but that's not a Clan tech problem; that's an Omnimech problem. IS Omnimechs would have the exact same problem if we ever got them, and Clan Battlemechs don't have that problem at all.

For weapons, Clan mechs can usually get around the heat thing by mounting way more DHS than IS mechs (pod space permitting). Or you could try slightly decreasing your alpha strike size to get better heat efficiency (I'm guessing it's probably higher than a comparable IS mech's alpha if the heat is that high, in which case that's kind of deserved).

Note that the Clan AC/5 does shoot PPFLD, but it's not that great of a gun because of similar reasons as its IS counterpart.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Ebins, on 29 May 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

Ok fan boys, come on and flame me. Tell me how wrong I am. I'm waiting.

..you really wanna start a discussion with that, or just in the mood for some trolling..?
"good luck."

[Gagis]

IS and Clan are in a reasonable balance while retaining some identity of their own, which is honestly a pretty amazing archievement. I don't think its even been considered as a realistic goal in any other BT franchise product.

[Horseman]

Ebins, on 29 May 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

TLDR: With IS being effectively an even match up (actually better in some instances) with clan, why play them?

Why not play them? Lighter, more compact weapons enable more aggressive playstyles, which is rather different from IS' tendency for slower, more durable mechs, and the omnipod system is a very different build mechanic.

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I have literally over a thousand hours in the game.

In nine years of playing the game? Bruh, that's rookie numbers.

[Kanil]

Ebins, on 29 May 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

TLDR: With IS being effectively an even match up (actually better in some instances) with clan, why play them?

It's hard to take your post seriously when the first thing you say is this. "IS being effectively an even match up" is called balance. If IS wasn't an even match up with Clan, then why would anyone play IS?

If the game being balanced is a problem for you, then it sure sounds like you're only interested in playing a game that's unbalanced in your favor.

Also FupDup's already mentioned it, but CXL is the best engine type in the game by a lot. Alive is better than dead, and shutdown is also still better than dead.

[Sawk]

LOL because the clans maybe is smaller numbers, but the mechs are better, 1 day you may learn this.

SAWK CLANNER

[Reverend Flashback]

There's so much wrong in this text.

1. As others said clan xl engine is the best engine in the game. It acts like a lighter light.
2. No one uses standard engines except on some very niche builds.
3. "Longer range helps only the first few minutes in the match" In a game where the average battle is over after 5 of those...
4. If you need a minute to cooldown you need more heatsinks. Simple as that. Clan also has the best ones too.
5. Clan Ac2 is singleshot. Others are not because they have other trades over their Is counterpart.

Clan mechs are totally fine.

[Hobbles v]

Just play both sides like a normal player. You learn a lot more. There's a reason Merc units have historically been way better at this game than loyalists.

[Heavy Money]

I assume OP is trolling or something, but here's serious answers for anyone else who actually wants to understand what's going on. IS vs Clan balance is very good right now. Sure in the lore, clan is just better. But this is a pvp game where we want balance. I guess we can assume that any IS mechs brought to the battles represented in MWO have top of the line gear and tuning (represented by all those quirks.)

Generally speaking, clan equipment is better, but IS mechs have more quirks. There have been a lot more IS buffs over the past year of Cauldron patches because more IS mechs were terrible. Clan mechs have a strong baseline from their better equipment (especially 2 slot DHS) and generally more hardpoints. So it has taken less attention to bring them in line. The place you will see lots of quirks on clan mechs is mostly the Set of Eight bonuses on Omnimechs. This is because So8 omnimechs tend to have bad hardpoint counts or combinations. Some have needed very large quirks to make them worth playing (EXE-C probably the biggest example.)

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IS targeting sensors are now equal to clan.

Yes, because they weren't worth using. Now they are. Since IS weapons have less range, they are still effectively doing less. And IS are generally running less weapons. But even if they weren't, what matters is the effectiveness of loadouts in the end. Clan TCs were much more worthwhile. IS weren't. So they got changed.

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Most clan mechs (unless you get the IIC variants) force you to have XL engines, FF or ES and you can't change that. With the introduction of a nerf to clan XL engines (and buff to IS ones) a long while back, it makes them basically the same as IS XL engines.

Clan XL engines are not the equivalent of IS XL engines, they are the equivalent of IS Light Engines. cXL and LE cause a heatspike on side torso loss. IS XL causes death. IS XL engines do let you get a few more tons, and this is worthwhile in some cases, but not in most. Generally the clan XL engines are just better. Clans have lots of good assaults.

Omnimechs are locked into some structure/armor choices, yes. This is to stay true to the lore. Those that are too weak due to being forced into a less optimal choice have received more quirks to compensate, so there's nothing to be upset about.

Some clan omnimechs would certainly be stronger if they could drop some engine for more weapons. They would mostly become overpowered if they could though. If you want that, take a Battlemech instead of an Omnimech. Not having your cake and eating it too is not a sign of something being wrong.

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Weapons - Apparently, even though the Clans are supposed to be technologically advanced (yay, they can shoot longer range, which only helps for the first few minutes of a match IF there isn't too much cover, but the maps are full of that now),

Range is extremely important and useful. Most matches don't end in a brawl. Supposed long range dominance is one of the most complained about things in the game. Saying something like this is why we are all assuming you are trolling.

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their weapons are hotter, prone to jamming more, slower, chain fire missiles instead of the IS grouping mechanism, etc. Oh, but they're lighter, less bulkier and do a little bit more damage you say? What's the point if the weapons themselves have been nerfed so hard that it really doesn't make a difference?

Their weapons are hotter, but their cooling is better. Clan mechs heat and cool faster. Overall, their alpha strikes, range, and dps are all higher on their energy weapon options. IS mechs have the advantage of shorter laser burn duration, and then whatever quirks or other pros/cons a specific mech has.

Similarly, IS LRMs have bigger alpha strike and fire in a large blob. Clan LRMs stream, but have much higher dps due to being literally half the weight, and still deal some damage within minimum range. IS = alpha strike, Clan = sustained dps. If you catch a target in the open for a long period, clan are just far better. Its a good tradeoff/dynamic. If you want bigger alpha strikes on lockon missiles, you can use ATMs, which have been buffed recently.

Generally speaking, the tradeoffs of clan vs IS weapons are just fine:

Lockon Missiles:
IS: Big alpha, less mobile, harder to use
Clan: More dps, more mobile, easier to use

Lasers:
IS: Shorter burn, but less range, alpha, dps, etc
Clan: Big alpha, good dps, more range, longer burn

Autocannons:
IS: Pinpoint, but heavier, bigger (except AC2), less range
Clan: Burst on some, but lighter, smaller, and better range.

LBX:
IS: Bigger and heavier, but generally better quirks
Clan: Smaller and lighter, but less quirks

Ultra Autocannons:
IS: Bigger, heavier, higher dps
Clan: Smaller, lighter, jam more. Generally runs more.

SRMs:
IS: Lots of nice durable mechs with good quirks for them
Clan: Longer range. Also lots of great mechs for them, but less quirks. Generally other weapons too though.

etc...

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Really, what's the point?

Variety of playstyle. IS mechs, generally speaking, tend to be slower and shorter range, but more durable, and then have some specialization based on quirks. Clan mechs tend to be faster, have better range, more flexibility, and are generally more forgiving to play due to better cooling.

And then of course there are types of loadouts that only can be done on one side. Like 2Light Gauss + 2ERPPC sniping is IS only, and is great for long range PPFLD. But clans can do great ERPPC snipers that have less alpha (due to stagger firing) but more dps, and are much more flexible to play. And they can do excellent Gauss+ERLL snipers with a lot more dps. IS ERLL boats have less range but better alpha and burn. Clan ERLL sniping has better dps and heat efficiency, but worse exposure time and burn, etc. Clan Laservomit is probably the best thing on average in quickplay due to great alpha, decent dps, good range, and generally on a mobile platform. IS laservomit has less range, but is generally on tougher platforms and needs less exposure, so its better in a brawl or for taking out smaller targets, etc.

Overall, the balance and variety between the two is incredibly good considering how many variables have needed to be balanced.

Edited by Heavy Money, 29 May 2022 - 04:37 PM.

[D o z e r]

Clan lore is pretty crazy and fun to get into, especially the Trials, Batchall, etc...

But in MWO, here are some obvious reasons to play Clan:

Maurader IIC (Scorch brawl or Lasvom variants) - devastating firepower, tanky and 72kph. Ice Ferret Rainbow Crow, a 140kph fridge on legs. Piranha, Viper and Myst Lynx if you like insane DPS and light play. Orion IIC, an 80kph+ Atlas. Wolfhound with 4srm6and 4srm2 @130kph. The best sniper in the game, the Direwolf. Hear your enemies howl from a thousand meters.

Clan XL Engines...

Nostalgia for Mechwarrior 2...

How many more reasons could one possiby need?? I love IS too but clantech and lore is awesome.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yes, it's that simple. It boils down to superior equipment vs superior quirks. Game balance is in a pretty good spot, and in a first person shooter, unlike in other battletech games, you want the factions balanced.

[Bulletsponge0]

Why play clan? the Ebon Jag is the sexiest mech in the game and the blue hud is better than the yellow hud

[Hobbles v]

Bulletsponge0, on 29 May 2022 - 07:02 PM, said:

Why play clan? the Ebon Jag is the sexiest mech in the game and the blue hud is better than the yellow hud

The diagonal crosshairs instead of the straight cross shape I think is waaaaaay better, as the lines don't obstruct view of small objects as much.

[Heavy Money]

Bulletsponge0, on 29 May 2022 - 07:02 PM, said:

Why play clan? the Ebon Jag is the sexiest mech in the game and the blue hud is better than the yellow hud

Its true. Especially mine.

[Rosarius]

Why play clans?

More range
Bigger alphas
More gun per tonne / slot
More space/tonnage for heat sinks
10 slot XL engines that don't have death on torso loss
Mix and match omnimech combinations
Plenty of reasons

[Duke Falcon]

@OP

Look, I trully understand you. I am also a clanner since the beginning and MWO were a shocking experience at first. But a massively played online game (despite any better judgements) NEED so called "balance". It meant that clans must be nerfed otherwise IS fanboys would cry rivers and lakes when clan light omnis eat their assaults face-to-face (what usually happen in QP). If MWO may set-up proper tech-base lorewise noone would play trully IS because clan-tech would hammer them within seconds. On the other hand IF someone coded restrictions into the game (keep clan-tech\IS-tech match ratio at 1\2 things may work) then clanners could be clan. Like FP matches go like 10 clanners vs 12 spheroids with the current tonnage restrictions... But do not get deeper into it. MWO "needed" balance and balance mean in games: Nerf it!\Buff it! Apart from that you would hardly get a BT-lore true computer game where both clans and IS are present.

And finally: Why play clan? Because if you forfeit clanner cause the IS barbarians win. Honour and duty, clan-way. That is why.

[Meep Meep]

I like clan lights and mediums because you can jam in heavy or even assault class weapons into them for that pocket battleship firepower. I dislike clan heavies and assaults because they are far too squishy and the main builds are for red line sniping with blue lazorz. I like clan lrm because you can boat a ludicrous amount of them on near any weight class and just ruin a player caught under a uav.

[cazeral]

I think the bigger question should be, why are Clan mechs still so expensive when functionally, they have been nerfed down to the buffed IS mechs?

Time to drop the Clan prices!

[Heavy Money]

cazeral, on 30 May 2022 - 01:22 AM, said:

I think the bigger question should be, why are Clan mechs still so expensive when functionally, they have been nerfed down to the buffed IS mechs?

Time to drop the Clan prices!

Mostly its because of omni-mechs. They cost more upfront, but they come with so much.
Once you account for most IS mechs needing to shell out a ton for Endo and DHS upgrades, and almost always having to buy a different engine than the come with, the costs even out already.