77 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 11 June 2022 - 10:43 AM, said:

How doesn't for example javelin with almost 500 damage suicide alpha be troll potential?
Or Marauder II-4HP dishing almost 700 damage and it can have something like 4xLPL for backup weapons
Rocket launcher is just stupid weapon that is pretty much impossible to make good but not trollgood

a troll weapon is specifically something meant to ruin the experience of the opponent (or your own team if they fail to kill the intended victim) and a one hit does that. machine guns, small pulse lasers, srms, they all can be used for backstabs but are not typically able to one hit an enemy. i dont consider these troll weapons because you usually don't get the kill on the first shot. it gives the other player indication that they are being attacked as well as an opportunity to respond.

to make that go away for rocket launchers, you make it so that your damage dumps are not instant. rapidly fired single rockets or smaller clusters do that. player is simply made aware that they are being attacked before they are dead. gives the opportunity to twist off the damage and face their attacker. you do that and rocket launchers still have the hard limit that they cannot be reloaded they still have the aweful spread and the min range. so you got some headroom for buffs after that.

Curccu, on 11 June 2022 - 09:54 PM, said:

I can't because OPs buff suggestion isn't available to try.

this is where i wish we had open test environments for players to test their xml theory crafting, even if offline.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 June 2022 - 09:32 AM.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 11 June 2022 - 10:33 PM, said:

They were never meant to be good. They're supposed to be one-shot filler weapons if you have limited tonnage/crit space left over and an unused missile hard point or two. E.g., your build concept is complete, but you have half a ton left over, so you slot in a RL10 for poops'n'giggles.

they were meant to be used. they are not being used. in fact they are even more niche than flamers, and that niche isnt even well defined.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 12 June 2022 - 05:57 AM, said:

I don't know if there are any so called complete builds that couldn't fit bit more armor, ammo, heatsink, bigger engine, extra JJ, bap, case, anything useful.

this is more an rl10 niche. the is have very few pieces of single slot equipment in the half ton range. i used one on a grasshopper that was meta'd to the teeth, but i had a half a ton and a slot and nothing to put it in. didnt have enough to upgrade the engine, and it was a vomit build so no ammo to add. but i did have that head missile slot and it was a no brainer. i even got a kill with it, once. the rl10 also has the best damage/ton (33% more than the 15/20).

the rl15 and 20 dont have that going for it, there is a lot more valuable options available. you are in the realm of adding heat sinks, targeting computers, bap, engine upgrades. stuff that matters a lot more. so you usually only use these if you want to use rocket launchers.

doing salvo fire kind of gives these ones the bigger existential crisis. you just get them for the ammo and they do about the same all around. perhaps changing the salvo size to 2/3/4 per launcher, and all can be fired 5 times (maybe 7 times if skills apply, just say a tech welded on a couple more tubes salvaged from a busted launcher). bigger launcher bigger damage.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 June 2022 - 10:03 AM.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 12 June 2022 - 09:26 AM, said:

a troll weapon is specifically something meant to ruin the experience of the opponent

That's ALL weapons. I don't know what planet you are from, but on this one? Yeah, weapons are not something you use to make nice with people.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 12 June 2022 - 10:17 AM, said:

That's ALL weapons. I don't know what planet you are from, but on this one? Yeah, weapons are not something you use to make nice with people.

you are aware we are talking about a game, right?

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 12 June 2022 - 11:18 AM, said:

you are aware we are talking about a game, right?

You are aware you sound like a scrub, right?

[Gagis]

I'm not at all convinced RL were really meant-meant to be used.

They and a lot of other stuff have been included in the game for the purpose of enabling new stock variants of chassis to be added, not for any spesific game design purposes where they would increase gameplay value. Many things exists because lore says so, not because they are needed for the game.

Some value can be gained by redesigning things until a niche is created, but, thats not necessarily worth the time and effort.

[John McClintock]

Curccu, on 11 June 2022 - 10:43 AM, said:

How doesn't for example javelin with almost 500 damage suicide alpha be troll potential?
Or Marauder II-4HP dishing almost 700 damage and it can have something like 4xLPL for backup weapons
Rocket launcher is just stupid weapon that is pretty much impossible to make good but not trollgood

If you are at 51 meters it still spreads almost the same as if you were at 399 meters. It's almost impossible to make a kill on a fresh mech by using rocket launchers. The damage is just too spread out to do any good. They only thing they do well is buff your end game score and give you a nice ELO boost.

I've spent some time messing with them, trying to make them work, but even hitting an assault with 4xRL20 basically just turns the whole assault yellow/orange and leaves you overheated.

If they would just make the spread distance dependent, so that at 51 yards you can focus fire on a component (or two), similar to SRMs, it would be a viable weapon system. But they have a really weird spread mechanic.

[Curccu]

John McClintock, on 12 June 2022 - 09:02 PM, said:

I've spent some time messing with them, trying to make them work, but even hitting an assault with 4xRL20 basically just turns the whole assault yellow/orange and leaves you overheated.

Yes and my comment was quoted to OP where he wanted rockets to do 3-4 dmg instead of what we have 2 now.
Mechs I used as example have 6 and 8 RL20 + Marauder got additional RL10. I used that 4 dmg/missile so instead of having orange armor you got no armor left and probably heavy damage on internals.
In marauders case we are talking about 620 damage in 1½ seconds if shot in pairs to get slight ghostheat and staying below 100% heat. That is insane burst damage that is like 4-5 times more than anything else you can dish out in this game.

but like I wrote few times already RL is **** weapon system that probably shouldn't be in this game... it's OP or useless, we got latter one in this game at the moment.

[caravann]

There will be a Rocket launcher update in June update according to DATA (Cauldron member)
The Rocket Launcher will fire twice instead of once with a cool down of 90 seconds.

[FupDup]

caravann, on 12 June 2022 - 10:45 PM, said:

There will be a Rocket launcher update in June update according to DATA (Cauldron member)
The Rocket Launcher will fire twice instead of once with a cool down of 90 seconds.

If that's true, then it feels like a wasted opportunity if they're only gonna give it two shots instead of one shot.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 12 June 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

You are aware you sound like a scrub, right?

there are a reason why games give you pool noodle weapons when their real life counterparts dont mess around. rocket launchers are spaghetti noodle level. i just want rocket launchers elevated to pool noodle standards.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 June 2022 - 06:22 AM.

[LordNothing]

John McClintock, on 12 June 2022 - 09:02 PM, said:

If you are at 51 meters it still spreads almost the same as if you were at 399 meters. It's almost impossible to make a kill on a fresh mech by using rocket launchers. The damage is just too spread out to do any good. They only thing they do well is buff your end game score and give you a nice ELO boost.

I've spent some time messing with them, trying to make them work, but even hitting an assault with 4xRL20 basically just turns the whole assault yellow/orange and leaves you overheated.

If they would just make the spread distance dependent, so that at 51 yards you can focus fire on a component (or two), similar to SRMs, it would be a viable weapon system. But they have a really weird spread mechanic.

i figure you get a circle about 8 meters in diameter at the min range (source: r=50*tan(4.7)). you could unload directly at an awesome's center of mass at exactly the min range and rockets would scatter off to the sides and miss.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 June 2022 - 06:21 AM.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 13 June 2022 - 06:06 AM, said:

there are a reason why games give you pool noodle weapons when their real life counterparts dont mess around. i just want rocket launchers elevated to pool noodle standards.

See, here's the thing, scrub, we've got people arguing that rocket launchers are bad because they aren't effective, and people saying they're bad because they enable one-shot kill builds that can't fire a second shot... So, which is it? Are they dangerous, or are they not? If they were as dangerous as people say, wouldn't the competitive gamers just be dropping in all rocket launcher 12-mans?

So far the only consistent thing I see here is people being scrubs, telling other people that they're wrong for playing the game in a way they don't personally approve of... Well, boo-freakin-hoo.

I've yet to see a compelling argument for changing them. As I said earlier, I'm not against the idea, but the supposed justification is at best dubious.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 06:14 AM, said:

See, here's the thing, scrub, we've got people arguing that rocket launchers are bad because they aren't effective, and people saying they're bad because they enable one-shot kill builds that can't fire a second shot... So, which is it? Are they dangerous, or are they not? If they were as dangerous as people say, wouldn't the competitive gamers just be dropping in all rocket launcher 12-mans?

So far the only consistent thing I see here is people being scrubs, telling other people that they're wrong for playing the game in a way they don't personally approve of... Well, boo-freakin-hoo.

I've yet to see a compelling argument for changing them. As I said earlier, I'm not against the idea, but the supposed justification is at best dubious.

i tend to think all credibility goes away with name calling. what are you, 12? the only thing this thread is about is making a useless piece of junk useful. anything more is a delusion of grandeur on your part.

its both. that sounds illogical but its not. rocket launchers are as good as they can be without giving suicide backstabbers too much advantage. it is currently at an acceptable level. there is so much spread that you are just sandblasting. up those rockets to 3 or 4 damage or tighten the spread to 2 degrees and see what happens. buffs like that are off the table so long as the thing dumps everything on the first trigger pull.

unfortunately those are the kind of changes the weapon needs in order to make me choose it over other options, or at least consider it as an option. this thread is chock full of ways do do b without changing a. and it will only take a bit of xml.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 June 2022 - 06:53 AM.

[John McClintock]

All I want is the spread to match srms, even if it's a massive AoE spread at 449m, they can keep the minimum range.

Making them two shot is an interesting move. I think it will make them sort of viable. The damage per ton wasn't really worth the Wright as they are now. Better to slap on some srm2 as they are right now. As someone else said, they are about 0.2 tons worth of ammo in a 1 ton package.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 13 June 2022 - 06:50 AM, said:

snip

A scrub is someone that complains about people using tactics, strategies, techniques, and/or equipment available in-game that they feel is somehow "unfair", despite the fact that they have just as much option to use said in-game assets themselves. And if you are going to say that something is too weak to use as-is, but also too strong to use as-is, well, at that point the only consistency you have is being a whining scrub.

This isn't "name calling", it's pointing out what you are doing. You can't even make a consistent argument for the necessity of change. Given that failure, why should any of us trust you to be able to posit any kind of viable change?

You're acting like the 12 year kid in the arcade that used to whine about throws and getting stuck in the corner in Street Fighter II or Mortal Kombat. Does it suck when it happens? Sure. Are you the one that let the opponent do that to you? Yes. Instead of coming up with counters, you want the game changed to suit your playstyle.

So, no, I don't see you as having the ability to properly assess the situation, much less determine if there is a problem. And if there is a problem, I don't trust you to be able to properly determine what it is, nor to suggest viable solutions.

Maybe you can do those things in other contexts, but clearly not in this one.

[Nightbird]

I actually think that limiting all RLs to 5 shots per click with a cooldown, and removing the min range and decreasing spread, is a viable way to make it useful without making it OP.

[Kanil]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 06:14 AM, said:

See, here's the thing, scrub, we've got people arguing that rocket launchers are bad because they aren't effective, and people saying they're bad because they enable one-shot kill builds that can't fire a second shot... So, which is it?

They're probably both of those things at the same time.

98% of the time they're dumpster fire trash that isn't even worth the paltry tonnage they require, and 2% of the time they can one-shot in a way that isn't really conducive to a fun video game.

[Curccu]

Escef, on 13 June 2022 - 06:14 AM, said:

Are they dangerous, or are they not? If they were as dangerous as people say, wouldn't the competitive gamers just be dropping in all rocket launcher 12-mans?

Because comp caliber people know how to evade one silly alpha and then laugh to that opponent and kill them easily because they got no weapons left.
Heck just do some JJ juggle and there is great chance that hit doesn't register almost at all.