77 replies to this topic

[John Bronco]

This thread is amusing knowing what's coming in the patch notes tomorrow (or whenever they get posted).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 01:11 PM, said:

was a bad card. You sacrifice two mountains (resources used to play cards) as an alternate cost for a card that isn't even particularly impressive. Why would you do that? You're handicapping your long game... Then someone demonstrated to me that I was thinking about it all wrong, and they did so by destroying me soundly with the card. Because if you play it correctly, there is no long game. If you play it correctly, the game ends. Then and there. You just won. Not dissimilar to performing an Alpha with a Nova Prime in table top Battletech, do it right and you aren't shut down and vulnerable to your opponent's counter-attack, because your opponent is dead, and therefor incapable of counter-attack.

I find it funny you are bringing up a game where there are plenty of turn two/three end games. Ignoring the fact it is a turn based 1v1 game which is sort of hard to compare. There is an important thing you are also not accounting for here, and it is counterplay (how fun is it to play against RL rushes). Probably not the worst thing as far as counterplay goes in this game (there is a lot of bad counterplay) but this is definitely one of them. No armor gank gimmick builds are always possible and that's not a problem, but dedicating a weapon system that could be better suited for other things is again just bad design.

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 01:11 PM, said:

Do I think a 12-man of Assassins or similar mechs with RL50 and twin SNPPCs could tear apart another team? Oh, hells, yes. Hey, you've got a dozen Assassins swarming around, do you know which one is going to fire rockets at you and precisely when?

I think you are honestly overcomplicating it, who is holding their rockets like that? The objective at that point is to burn down 1-2 targets immediately to get an immediate numbers advantage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 June 2022 - 02:33 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 01:11 PM, said:

Let's put this another way. I used to think this:



was a bad card. You sacrifice two mountains (resources used to play cards) as an alternate cost for a card that isn't even particularly impressive. Why would you do that? You're handicapping your long game... Then someone demonstrated to me that I was thinking about it all wrong, and they did so by destroying me soundly with the card. Because if you play it correctly, there is no long game. If you play it correctly, the game ends. Then and there. You just won. Not dissimilar to performing an Alpha with a Nova Prime in table top Battletech, do it right and you aren't shut down and vulnerable to your opponent's counter-attack, because your opponent is dead, and therefor incapable of counter-attack.

I agree with the logic, and I also play lots of magic with this kind of cards.

But the thing is that just because this type of logic holds doesn't mean the card/weapons can't be good or bad. Fireblast would not have been competitive at all if it did 2 damage, and probably rarely played if it did 3 damage (maybe in pauper). It's competitive because 4 damage for 1 card in legacy/pauper burn is a lot, not just because it can be a free endgame cast.

So mechanically rocket launchers can be seen as the MWO equivalent of fireblast sure, but they can still be bad if their MWO damage is more similar to 2 or 3 damage in magic than the 4 that makes fireblast competitive.

I like the idea of rocket launchers fulfilling that role, but I don't think they are anywhere near as strong in MWO as fireblast is in magic.

[LordNothing]

John Bronco, on 16 June 2022 - 02:22 PM, said:

This thread is amusing knowing what's coming in the patch notes tomorrow (or whenever they get posted).

yea, its pretty pointless to argue at this point. look forward to seeing the cauldron's answer to this conundrum. i was not aware there were plans for rls when i started this thread.

maybe i can move on to my next pet peeve, command consoles. death (and then rebirth) to all meme equipments!

Edited by LordNothing, 16 June 2022 - 03:07 PM.

[Escef]

Sjorpha, on 16 June 2022 - 02:46 PM, said:

I agree with the logic, and I also play lots of magic with this kind of cards.

But the thing is that just because this type of logic holds doesn't mean the card/weapons can't be good or bad. Fireblast would not have been competitive at all if it did 2 damage, and probably rarely played if it did 3 damage (maybe in pauper). It's competitive because 4 damage for 1 card in legacy/pauper burn is a lot, not just because it can be a free endgame cast.

So mechanically rocket launchers can be seen as the MWO equivalent of fireblast sure, but they can still be bad if their MWO damage is more similar to 2 or 3 damage in magic than the 4 that makes fireblast competitive.

I like the idea of rocket launchers fulfilling that role, but I don't think they are anywhere near as strong in MWO as fireblast is in magic.

Y'know what? You get it. Now, as to whether RLs are competitive in damage or not, well... We have people in this thread arguing no, and people in the thread arguing "yes to an overpowered degree". I'm in the very small "maybe" camp. I've seen how strong they can be in optimal usage. That sputtering you heard in the video I posted? That was me, after I gutted that Warhawk, shocked at what I had just managed to do. (For those wondering, I don't recall which team won that match, but I do know that I managed to shake that pack of fast movers that came after me and survived long enough to take a few more shots with those peepers. And the only possibly relevant change I can think of between when that was recorded and the release of the new skill tree was the SNPPC being revised into a splash weapon like the C-ERPPC.)

As I said before, I've yet to hear a compelling argument in favor of any of the suggested changes to RLs. Nor have I heard one for keeping them as-is. Honestly, even without changes, I wager if, say, The B33f suddenly popped back into the game and made a video showcasing how he was able to rip people apart with RLs, they'd be the new Flavor of the Month and there'd be calls for nerfing them. Of course, that, by itself, wouldn't prove anything, but it would at least generate a lot of data to do analysis upon.

[Kanil]

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 01:17 PM, said:

Oh, f***ing save it. You have no imagination, all you know is how to whine that this weapon doesn't function in a way that your mind can grasp. Got it. There's nothing for us to fight over.

Right, of course. You make an extremely compelling argument.

Rocket launchers are great as long as you have i m a g i n a t i o n. Ah, if only...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 03:44 PM, said:

The B33f suddenly popped back into the game and made a video showcasing how he was able to rip people apart with RLs, they'd be the new Flavor of the Month and there'd be calls for nerfing them.

Yeah, and they wouldn't be wrong, going from fresh to dead from one-shot sucks, and again this is why rockets need to change; counterplay. You can still have weapons that can burn mechs down quickly without making it so they can one shot things (Piranha's come to mind). Things that can one shot a mech by themself, are typically problematic (the old 6 SRM6 Jenner IIC comes to mind somewhat).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 June 2022 - 07:49 PM.

[LordNothing]

one hit kills from fresh mech are pretty damn rare in this game, and usually when it happens its because the enemy made questionable build choices (isxl and no rear side torso armor for example). i think that this is good. this did not happen on accident, it was an intentional design choice to increase ttk and eliminate one hit kills. so when you make the claim that rl's are for that one thing you dont want to happen, thats a pretty shaky argument.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 16 June 2022 - 05:18 PM, said:

one hit kills from fresh mech are pretty damn rare in this game, and usually when it happens its because the enemy made questionable build choices (isxl and no rear side torso armor for example). i think that this is good. this did not happen on accident, it was an intentional design choice to increase ttk and eliminate one hit kills. so when you make the claim that rl's are for that one thing you dont want to happen, thats a pretty shaky argument.

RLs are generally only one-hit kills from behind. I'd say anything that might encourage players to develop situational awareness and look at their minimaps every now and again is good. Or, heavens forbid it, turn around every now and again if they aren't actively engaged. Dead serious, I once went completely undetected in a white Battlemaster in old Terra Therma as 4 enemy mechs walked right past me, because not a one of them bothered to look at the hillside they just walked past.

And we've all seen this kind of stuff in game with disappointing regularity. Half the team staring off into the distance, with no idea that the other half of the team is actively engaged maybe 4 or 5 hundred meters away.

Edited by Escef, 17 June 2022 - 08:11 AM.

[LordNothing]

educate the cadets if you must, i got bigger fish to fry.

[Escef]

LordNothing, on 17 June 2022 - 08:26 AM, said:

educate the cadets if you must, i got bigger fish to fry.

LOL

I've been playing this game since early open beta, and people that have been playing longer than I have are just as, if not more, guilty of lacking situational awareness. It's right up there with the folks that try to be snipers and just sit in a nest with no targets while the rest of the team gets killed. We've both been in this game long enough to know that I'm right. You've seen all this crap, and we both know it.

Now, we might disagree on how to fix things, or even on what things are actual problems. But I'm reasonably certain we've both seen a lot of the same kinds of crap in-game.

[feeWAIVER]

Escef, on 17 June 2022 - 09:14 AM, said:

I've been playing this game since early open beta, and people that have been playing longer than I have are just as, if not more, guilty of lacking situational awareness.

In my defense, I smoke a lot of weed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 17 June 2022 - 08:10 AM, said:

RLs are generally only one-hit kills from behind. I'd say anything that might encourage players to develop situational awareness and look at their minimaps every now and again is good.

That's.....not how that works, if it was people wouldn't complain near as much about lights or LRMs in lower end tiers and would actually improve.

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 16 June 2022 - 02:22 PM, said:

This thread is amusing knowing what's coming in the patch notes tomorrow (or whenever they get posted).

Nothing?

[John Bronco]

Per Navid, it got pulled due to bugs.

[Sjorpha]

Escef, on 16 June 2022 - 03:44 PM, said:

Y'know what? You get it. Now, as to whether RLs are competitive in damage or not, well... We have people in this thread arguing no, and people in the thread arguing "yes to an overpowered degree". I'm in the very small "maybe" camp. I've seen how strong they can be in optimal usage. That sputtering you heard in the video I posted? That was me, after I gutted that Warhawk, shocked at what I had just managed to do. (For those wondering, I don't recall which team won that match, but I do know that I managed to shake that pack of fast movers that came after me and survived long enough to take a few more shots with those peepers. And the only possibly relevant change I can think of between when that was recorded and the release of the new skill tree was the SNPPC being revised into a splash weapon like the C-ERPPC.)

As I said before, I've yet to hear a compelling argument in favor of any of the suggested changes to RLs. Nor have I heard one for keeping them as-is. Honestly, even without changes, I wager if, say, The B33f suddenly popped back into the game and made a video showcasing how he was able to rip people apart with RLs, they'd be the new Flavor of the Month and there'd be calls for nerfing them. Of course, that, by itself, wouldn't prove anything, but it would at least generate a lot of data to do analysis upon.

The way I see it the metagame doesn't lie, when it comes to competition people will use whatever works best. If something is competitive it gets used, if it's not then it doesn't.

We know Fireblast is competitive in burn because burn decks in those formats always play the card, burn isn't competitive in legacy right now and it's really fringe in pauper (because several new top decks have lots of life gain) but whenever it's played in either format it plays Fireblast.

So are rocket launchers competitive? Well that question is answered primarily by looking at whether they are they played in comp and among the top players in QP and FP, and while I've played very little the last few months my guess is that they still aren't really played. (we'll leave aside the matter of how they were used to game damage reducing missile doors before that mechanic was changed, I don't think that qualifies as being played in this context.)

You can of course have a similar dynamic as with legacy burn not being a viable deck right now, so rocket launchers could not see play despite being good if brawling as a strategy isn't competitive for other metagame reasons. I don't think that's the case though, because my limited experience of the recent metagame tells me brawlers do see play but don't pack any rocket launchers.

You could also motivate a weapon being competitive despite seeing little play if it counters some specific competitive strategy, kind of like sideboard cards in mtg. But you still have to demonstrate that this is the case, that it actually sees that kind of play. I don't think it applies in this case either.

[LordNothing]

feeWAIVER, on 17 June 2022 - 10:25 AM, said:

In my defense, I smoke a lot of weed.

i only smoke weed some times. might smoke weed today if i don't fall asleep before having time to go to the weed shop.

i find my abilities rather inconsistent, some times im in the zone and other times im just screwing around or completing the current event. like a few days ago i got knocked down to t3, resolved to just play for fun, only to find myself back in t2 within 3 games. i normally bounce the other way.

[LordNothing]

Escef, on 17 June 2022 - 09:14 AM, said:

LOL

I've been playing this game since early open beta, and people that have been playing longer than I have are just as, if not more, guilty of lacking situational awareness. It's right up there with the folks that try to be snipers and just sit in a nest with no targets while the rest of the team gets killed. We've both been in this game long enough to know that I'm right. You've seen all this crap, and we both know it.

Now, we might disagree on how to fix things, or even on what things are actual problems. But I'm reasonably certain we've both seen a lot of the same kinds of crap in-game.

i just accept that its the nature of games and move on. there is going to be a lot of half hearted play and variations in skill in any game, especially a niche game with a small population. its better to have players you disagree with than no players at all.

John Bronco, on 17 June 2022 - 11:39 PM, said:

Per Navid, it got pulled due to bugs.

that is unfortunate. i was out of town for the weekend and was looking forward to messing with it when i got back. at least there is an event up.