247 replies to this topic

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

w0qj, on 19 June 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

A preview of this PPC balance is the Snub Nose PPC balancing for 21-June-2022 patch:
https://mwomercs.com...2610-21june2022

Snub Nose PPC
+30% more damage (more splash and less pinpoint damage). New damage profile: 2.5 / 10 / 2.5
Reduced to 2x Snub Nose PPC without Ghost Heat penalty
pseudo -33% Heat (since 3x Snub Nose PPC ==> 2x Snub Nose PPC)

Therefore a lot more Light/Medium mechs can field 2x Snub Nose PPC,
effectively for more damage and less heat (dph). Good times!

That is a good analogy.

I suspect that 2 SNPPC will be used a fair bit in the long-run. Also, I doubt these SNPPC changes will impact the game balance of mid-low range fast mechs when you consider its competitors.

Of course, there are too many unforeseen factors to predict: must first test in the game before deciding whether this is a good idea.

D A T A, on 19 June 2022 - 01:34 PM, said:

Big NO to increase in pinpoint damage, yes to heat and splash.

While I guess I understand some reasons for your viewpoint on PPD (please elaborate on why you think this way), I wouldn’t say that higher PPD is an absolute no:

TLDR: I personally think implementing splash damage sucks, but I can see why people want it. I think keeping PPCs PPFL improves build variety, while splash damage could make dealing with PPCs more forgiving. However, when considering this issue seriously, I think it best for all of us to consider all possible situations and scenarios, and the probabilities that they occur. Instead of making sweeping statements.

Higher PPD hurts lights more, and it generally punishes harder than if the damage was spread across your mech as you have to shield your damaged part more. Plus, maybe splash damage on FL (single-shot) PPCs could be a unique feature.

However: Splash damage from PPCs means that if your mech is heavily damaged, death is unavoidable on some mechs which can be very annoying in many situations, especially ones that rely on deadsiding or IS XL engines. In relation to this, torso twisting is less effective against this kind of damage since whatever damage is dealt to your arm will always transfer slightly to your ST, just as some damage on your ST will always transfer to your CT. So this actually makes defending yourself against IS PPCs more difficult IMO.

I also think that keeping IS PPCs PPFL will open up more build options than if IS PPCs had splash damage. I always believed that FL splash damage acts similarly to LBX, though not identically. From this, I could see builds that will act as if PPCs had splash damage, even if the IS PPCs themselves are PPFL. On the other hand, I cannot see splash-damage PPC builds substituting PPFL PPC builds. Also, I don’t think IS ERPPCs should be near-identical to Clan ERPPCs.

I don’t care if people think PPFLD is a high-skill weapon, as long as it has the potential to compete with the current best weapons – that is why I think some kitchen sink and bracket builds do have great potential at the highest level, its just that it takes too much time to master all the weapon groupings, what salvo goes with what, and when to fire specific weapons.


Now when discussing both options, and bare in mind the in-game differences are likely to be small in practice: whether PPCs are PPFLD or have splash damage isn’t going to affect how deadly it is in practice – otherwise we have a balance problem! Also, I feel that the difficulty in using and defending against both versions will be similar: maybe PPFLD will be less forgiving and require better aim, but splash damage is more difficult to defend against and punishes rush tactics more than PPFLD.


That said, splash damage on PPCs is an interesting talking point that should be discussed carefully among the Cauldron, not only for upcoming patches but for possible future content. You could buff PPFLD, or splash damage, or a combination of these things – just make sure to test it out in practice. You never know...

TheCaptainJZ, on 19 June 2022 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm against any changes that increase PPFLD and thus decrease TTK.

You are against weapon balance then?

Because the changes proposed are there to REMOVE a low TTK build, while buffing builds that are/ will be underpowered.

What about the 60+ laser alphas? Or the 6 ERLL combo for IS or Clans? Or 4 RAC2s? Or the barely touched MRM90? Or the barely touched 70+ dakka bursts? Or countless super deadly kitchen sink builds that have existed for years, even before the Cauldron showed up? Or...

Lower TTK among weaker builds increases build variety.

Lower TTK among stronger builds lowers TTK in-game.


Any worries about TTK in general should be resolved by increasing TTK universally (e.g. armor buffs, heat management tweaks, etc.)

katoult, on 20 June 2022 - 01:12 AM, said:

That would just turn LPPC into MPL without duration.

Of course one might say that that is to what extent LPPC have replaced MPL already anyway.

I am with Meep Meep on this one, although I don’t think PGI should be focusing on weapon balance too much now, what about matchmaker, faction play, or map balance?

Don’t understand the link between LPPC and MPL – they are completely different weapons.

Also don’t understand confracto’s point: isn’t there a separate 3D model for weapons? All it takes is to place the model where the hardpoint is programmed to appear at. There might be bugs, but I don't think it will be the end of the world.


What Meep Meep suggested would do the following, IMO:

1. Hurt existing LPPC boat builds, though with the proposed PPC changes, there are more options to use PPCs on lights and mediums.

2. Buff PPC hybrid builds on lights and mediums – with lighter LPPCs, you can invest more into MRMs or AC’s to complement PPCs.

3. Buff LRM hybrid builds on all mechs – lights to assaults.

4. Should be looked at: Make the Spider-5V extremely overpowered, though this can be fixed with tuning.

I think the overall benefit would be positive bar from ironing out some important issues.

Glaive-, on 20 June 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

To be honest I'd rather see the charge mechanic removed from all gauss rifles first (except the HGauss potentially).
It's not a fun mechanic (IMO), isn't "high skill", and really doesn't de-link gauss and PPC once you get the muscle memory down.

It feels like a weird crutch to balance guass+ppc that in practice is more annoying to deal with than effective. I'd rather other measures be taken to balance the combo.

That is a good point! I actually missed that! That’s why I encourage people to point out flaws in my thinking – helps me find improvements and better my understanding.

Yes, first remove gauss charge and do nothing else to the weapons (maybe set Gauss cooldown to 5s?).

Game has changed a lot since the charge mechanic was implemented almost a decade ago, and I can't think of a reason to keep it anymore.

Guess the charge mechanic ought to go...

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 20 June 2022 - 11:25 PM.

[YueFei]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

That is a good point! I actually missed that! That’s why I encourage people to point out flaws in my thinking – helps me find improvements and better my understanding.

Yes, first remove gauss charge and do nothing else to the weapons (maybe set Gauss cooldown to 5s?).

Game has changed a lot since the charge mechanic was implemented almost a decade ago, and I can't think of a reason to keep it anymore.

Guess the charge mechanic ought to go...

I'd be wary of removing charge-up on Heavy Gauss. It's one of the things that helps facilitate counter-play by giving time to twist defensively and/or stutter-step when encountering Heavy Gauss (and Double Heavy Gauss in particular).

And it's not like Heavy Gauss cannot pre-fire. Using teammate's spotting, or UAVs, Seismic, or even using your hearing to anticipate and pre-charge your Heavy Gauss.... these are all things a Heavy Gauss user can use to pre-charge their rifle(s) to be ready to fire as soon as they peek (or the unwary enemy peeks).

Now I'd be in favor of removing the screen-shake from firing Heavy Gauss. Maybe that'll make it more viable to use 1xHeavy Gauss in combo with other weapons. Right now the screen-shake makes it awkward to try to shoot it into combination with other weapons, since it can throw off the aim of the other weapons.

[Meep Meep]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

I am with Meep Meep on this one, although I don’t think PGI should be focusing on weapon balance too much now, what about matchmaker, faction play, or map balance?

Don’t understand the link between LPPC and MPL – they are completely different weapons.

Also don’t understand confracto’s point: isn’t there a separate 3D model for weapons? All it takes is to place the model where the hardpoint is programmed to appear at. There might be bugs, but I don't think it will be the end of the world.


What Meep Meep suggested would do the following, IMO:

1. Hurt existing LPPC boat builds, though with the proposed PPC changes, there are more options to use PPCs on lights and mediums.

2. Buff PPC hybrid builds on lights and mediums – with lighter LPPCs, you can invest more into MRMs or AC’s to complement PPCs.

3. Buff LRM hybrid builds on all mechs – lights to assaults.

4. Should be looked at: Make the Spider-5V extremely overpowered, though this can be fixed with tuning.

I think the overall benefit would be positive bar from ironing out some important issues.

Number one is my main gripe. They simply weigh too much and cost too many slots vs medium lasers to bother on most lights especially the 20 tonners. Currently they are better suited using as a secondary lppc group to go along with some projectiles or missiles on the heavier mechs. I can't really think of any situation where two lppc are going to be better than six mediums on a flea for example. Of course my proposed changes are just a rough idea so the 50lb brains of cauldron can fine tune the rof and heat etc to balance it out.

[katoult]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

Don’t understand the link between LPPC and MPL – they are completely different weapons.

If an LPPC would weigh only half a ton more than a MPL and use the same slot amount (as proposed by meep meep) then you'll see them completely replacing MPL in builds due to being "PPFLD meta" weapons that completely outrange and outclass MPL.

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

Lower TTK among weaker builds increases build variety.

Except the game as it is does not suffer from limited build variety, but what it does suffer from is a very low TTK.
In particular the 8v8 combat repeatedly available in recent weeks, in which TTK has been higher, has shown that again and again.

Note that i'm talking about Quick Play for that statement. Performance in other modes is completely irrelevant to global weapon values due to extremely limited player exposure and due to the skill present in their limited playerbase to adapt for optimization.

Meep Meep, on 20 June 2022 - 11:49 PM, said:

I can't really think of any situation where two lppc are going to be better than six mediums on a flea for example.

Double LPPC works great on Stealth Fleas where you're hurting for slots anyway.

[Meep Meep]

katoult, on 21 June 2022 - 02:44 AM, said:

Double LPPC works great on Stealth Fleas where you're hurting for slots anyway.

For what? Annoying your targets to death? If you are hurting for slots you use medium lasers. So you can fit four mediums vs two lppc and get a bit less than double the alpha and hitscan to boot and save two tons on top of it all so even more mediums if you have spare slots and you should via light ferro.

As to the mpl comparison lppc get range but have travel time vs the hitscan of pulses and their very short duration so you get a near ppd effect if you have a reasonably steady aim plus you can fit more pulses than lppc before you hit ghost heat. I'd much rather take medium pulses over lppc on a brawling build.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

katoult, on 21 June 2022 - 02:44 AM, said:

If an LPPC would weigh only half a ton more than a MPL and use the same slot amount (as proposed by meep meep) then you'll see them completely replacing MPL in builds due to being "PPFLD meta" weapons that completely outrange and outclass MPL.


Except the game as it is does not suffer from limited build variety, but what it does suffer from is a very low TTK.
In particular the 8v8 combat repeatedly available in recent weeks, in which TTK has been higher, has shown that again and again.

Explain to me which pure LPPC build can alpha for 36 or 48 damage.
Explain to me which pure LPPC build can sustain 7.6 DPS, even with Meep Meep's changes, on a Medium.
Explain to me which pure LPPC build has infinite velocity.

And then post it on the forums.

Likewise, MPLs have much lower range and has laserburn.

I am not saying LPPCs are not better than MPLs - if you read my posts I think both LPPCs and MPLs are among the strongest weapons currently - but I am pointing out comparing LPPCs to MPLs is like comparing LRMs to MGs, and that I do not (and still do not) understand your point.

Also, please don't venture into the scary world of hybrid builds, otherwise we will be here all day.


Whether a game has limited build variety or not doesn't subtract from the fact that lowering TTK for a particularly weak build isn't going to lower TTK at the higher levels:

Take CS:GO, for example: If you significantly buffed the Glock, would that lower TTK in a Rifle round?

As I said, if you want to raise TTK, you must do it universally.

I have no opinion on current TTK - with low TTK I will play more tactically and take more chances. With high TTK I will stick with the team and prioritize holding key positions. That is why with TTK, I said I will leave it to the community - I am not going to give input in that.


On a sidenote, I agree with you that PPCs and HPPCs do need buffing by themselves, mainly because of the strength of LPPCs.

[SoulRcannon]

I am against the proposed change because it removes a build option and replaces it with changes to these weapon systems that not only cannot hope to replace what was removed, but conceivably cannot be intuitively determined as being the improvements some of these weapon systems might need.

Are LGR/ERPPC snipers dominant in the meta right now? I'm seeing lasvom and blue lasers (even with the tiny duration increase for clans) feature more prominently. The mechs that can bring 3ERPPC and 2LGR have convergence issues and/or heat problems that also keep them from becoming meta.

I also struggle to see how LGR being unpaired makes it hard to buff IS PPCs and HPPCs, as those builds that utilize both would require closer proximity and better awareness of the unsynchronized velocities to be used effectively. As they are, those builds are even further down the pecking order from ERPPC/LGR. I don't like the proposed changes if LGR is being paired back because (to use another now-viable weapon as an example) what makes LPPC good is not the additional .5 damage they do now (which I think could be removed and LPPC would still see play), it is the heat reduction, the HSL increase and the removal of minimum range.

It is my opinion that the heat on ERPPCs and ERLLs only increasing proportionally to the increase of their range compared to PPC and LL does not account for the advantage in gameplay that extra range provides, the ability to trade/farm with impunity unless facing similar mechs. Which is to say, I feel they need to be slightly hotter because builds that use them need an additional "haha you can't hurt me back" tax. But, this is beside the point of the question raised.

Back to IS PPCs and HPPCs, giving HPPCs damage drop off and IS PPCs the best heat efficiency would be welcome changes IMO regardless of whether LGRs are recoupled, but they don't need better PPFLD. I am looking forward to the coming SNPPC changes though, I think that change was warranted. But yeah, please don't make LGR and all the new build combos irrelevant again.

Edited by SoulRcannon, 21 June 2022 - 08:32 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

You are against weapon balance then?

Because the changes proposed are there to REMOVE a low TTK build, while buffing builds that are/ will be underpowered.

What about the 60+ laser alphas? Or the 6 ERLL combo for IS or Clans? Or 4 RAC2s? Or the barely touched MRM90? Or the barely touched 70+ dakka bursts? Or countless super deadly kitchen sink builds that have existed for years, even before the Cauldron showed up? Or...

Lower TTK among weaker builds increases build variety.

Lower TTK among stronger builds lowers TTK in-game.


Any worries about TTK in general should be resolved by increasing TTK universally (e.g. armor buffs, heat management tweaks, etc.)

I said I was against any game changes that may increase pinpoint damage and alpha damage, not that I was against any changes at all. This includes laser vomit, missile boats, ACs, everything. Over the last 10 years, the game has become more and more of a twitch shooter. I preferred the game in the earlier days, though of course there were problems then.
I don't get why we need to buff damage? If anything, damage should be nerfed across the board, in my opinion. And roll back some quirks. And reduce the power of some skill tree skills. I don't care whether it's a reduction in damage or increase in cooldown or increase in laser burn time or decrease in ammo or whatever. I want fights to last longer by reducing damage overall. Power creep is real. I'll leave it to the Excelwarriors to figure out the math. But I get the impression few players here share my opinion so we'll just keep adding quirks and armor and making weapons fire faster to achieve balance.

At the end of the day, my view and opinion is simply that. And that can be best summarized as "I am against any changes that increase pinpoint, front-loaded damage or high alphas in a short period of time because that makes mechs die too fast and is not fun in my opinion."

[feeWAIVER]

I think TTK is almost perfect now.
There may be a handful of mechs that need armor nerfed, that take too many hits to the CT, and live long after they should be dead.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

TheCaptainJZ, on 21 June 2022 - 07:01 AM, said:

I said I was against any game changes that may increase pinpoint damage and alpha damage, not that I was against any changes at all. This includes laser vomit, missile boats, ACs, everything. Over the last 10 years, the game has become more and more of a twitch shooter. I preferred the game in the earlier days, though of course there were problems then.
I don't get why we need to buff damage? If anything, damage should be nerfed across the board, in my opinion. And roll back some quirks. And reduce the power of some skill tree skills. I don't care whether it's a reduction in damage or increase in cooldown or increase in laser burn time or decrease in ammo or whatever. I want fights to last longer by reducing damage overall. Power creep is real. I'll leave it to the Excelwarriors to figure out the math. But I get the impression few players here share my opinion so we'll just keep adding quirks and armor and making weapons fire faster to achieve balance.

At the end of the day, my view and opinion is simply that. And that can be best summarized as "I am against any changes that increase pinpoint, front-loaded damage or high alphas in a short period of time because that makes mechs die too fast and is not fun in my opinion."

I assumed you meant only PPC/ Gauss, because that is the topic of this thread. I do agree that TTK is getting lower over time in MWO - you can blame meta and old PGI for that.

The Cauldron, though, hasn't done anything to lower TTK any further though. Notice how the MPL Wolfhound, Dakka MC-II, ERPPC Warhawk, and insta-delete DWF haven't really been buffed? They are the bar to which all other builds are compared to.

TTK in a game closely correlates with the firepower of some "build": that's why the AWP kills so much faster than the Glock in CS:GO. The difference is that the in-game battle value of the AWP is much higher than that of the Glock, while in MWO PPCs are "supposed" to be the same value as any other build. Unfortunately, PPCs just aren't (at least by themselves). Furthermore, even if the alpha damage of IS PPC class weapons were buffed, I still cannot find a boat build that would get a deadlier alpha than any comparable existing build (e.g. Laservom).

Also, I don't think it matters whether the higher damage comes from PPFLD or splash damage. The situations where either buff leads to mechs dying faster are similar.

However, I am worried that the buff to PPCs would indirectly make PPC + AC combos become the next most powerful combo across every weight class. IMO, the pressure points are not only alpha damage, but also cooldown. So, I do share the same concern about power creep.

I stand by my point regarding raising TTK though: you need to apply an universal change. Buff armor, Reduce damage, Reduce heat efficiency, Apply mech rescale, etc. Throw in respawns if that is what most of the community want, I honestly don't care.


As for your belief that TTK is too low, I feel that this opinion is popular in this game so you are not alone at least. (actually feeWAIVER thinks TTK is near-perfect, I can see their reasoning as well).

I personally don't care, although that is coming from someone who thinks Insurgency and War Thunder's TTK is just right.


P.S. I think we are discussing TTK more than IS PPC and Gauss now. Let's get back on topic!

[caravann]

If we weren't restrained to game rules all players would put all armor in the CT since it's the weakest part of the mech.


I noticed cheaters who uses gauss rifles with no charge ups. I think that restrictions we won't see or able to reach is a good thing to create anti cheat rules so that nobody can say that they used a gun who did higher damage than what's allowed. This would satisfy all those who dislike RL's since now there are laws who protect them from a mech of having pin points who exceeds the physical limitations. These laws are to ensure that pinpoints or vomits improve survival of our fragile 100 tonners who we protect from light mechs so that their super guns are able to kill the opponent mechs with superior DPS firepower.

Where exactly is the line? Around 60 is the normal alpha strike. 80 is the normal max capacity of light and medium mechs.
One shot is a minute, how many minutes is a battle? 5 minutes is the total battle. 5 shots who strikes the target.
Average damage for entire team 300-400 for each player.

Max allowed total damage in a single shot 150 to ensure there's a purpose of 100 tonners. When the power increases the light mechs takes over. I would go even further to 100 to ensure that there's no point in power spiking.

The CT decide how long a mech survive. It's the weakest part of the mech. A mech with 90 armor can survive one shot from an alpha strike with armor intact. Technically all Heavy mechs have armor and light or medium have armor who is obsolete and works as structure healthpoints. This is how armor on medium an light mechs could be reduced and replaced with increased structure and it wouldn't change much.

What is armor in MWO? and why are ppc, ac and all these pinpoint weapons needed.
Missiles aren't going to bounce away from the armor exactly and the ppc is made to create holes in armor.
The missiles are solely bad because we don't have stream fired missile launchers and the CT who is the weakest part of the mech doesn't have structure who reduce damage from pinpoint damage.

[Vorpal Puppy]

You know why most of the peeps and gauss seem underperforming? Because you made ERLL too strong. Hit ERLLs with the nerf hammer a couple times and suddenly everything else will feel better.

[MPhoenix]

"Snub Nose PPC
Reduced minimum heat penalty limit to 3 (from 4)"

Well this was monumentally stupid.
Some rather classic and standard builds like the Shadowhawk 2K have used a 3 SPPC build for a long time and now that build is useless.

Not the most well thought out change...

[feeWAIVER]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 10:38 AM, said:

"Snub Nose PPC
Reduced minimum heat penalty limit to 3 (from 4)"

Well this was monumentally stupid.
Some rather classic and standard builds like the Shadowhawk 2K have used a 3 SPPC build for a long time and now that build is useless.

Not the most well thought out change...

3 snubs always felt too hot. I think 2 snubs will combo better with an AC20.

[MPhoenix]

feeWAIVER, on 21 June 2022 - 10:43 AM, said:

3 snubs always felt too hot. I think 2 snubs will combo better with an AC20.

Except that like the SHD-2K and ENF most mediums running a traditional 3 SNPPC build there are either not enough available weight and/or slots to replace a SNPPC with an AC20.

'Felt too hot' is not a valid reason to screw over builds people have been playing for a long time.

[feeWAIVER]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 10:51 AM, said:

Except that like the SHD-2K and ENF most mediums running a traditional 3 SNPPC build there are either not enough available weight and/or slots to replace a SNPPC with an AC20.

'Felt too hot' is not a valid reason to screw over builds people have been playing for a long time.

They didn't increase the weight. You can still equip them if you did before.

[MPhoenix]

feeWAIVER, on 21 June 2022 - 12:03 PM, said:

They didn't increase the weight. You can still equip them if you did before.

The weight is the same but with the HSL lowered the heat is now equivalent to weight.

Now instead of 6 tons that third SNPPC costs 8 tons with the required two extra DBLHS to allow it to be fired and takes up eight slots.

As I said, this cripples many Heavy builds and destroys more Medium builds.

[Nightbird]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 01:10 PM, said:

The weight is the same but with the HSL lowered the heat is now equivalent to weight.

Now instead of 6 tons that third SNPPC costs 8 tons with the required two extra DBLHS to allow it to be fired and takes up eight slots.

As I said, this cripples many Heavy builds and destroys more Medium builds.

You could shoot them 2+1, and enjoy the bonus damage? The game isn't only based on one click builds.

[Heavy Money]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 10:51 AM, said:

Except that like the SHD-2K and ENF most mediums running a traditional 3 SNPPC build there are either not enough available weight and/or slots to replace a SNPPC with an AC20.

'Felt too hot' is not a valid reason to screw over builds people have been playing for a long time.

For a long time? We've had the ability to fire 3 SNPPCs without ghost heat for less than a year.

[MPhoenix]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2022 - 01:13 PM, said:

You could shoot them 2+1, and enjoy the bonus damage? The game isn't only based on one click builds.

You can but the delay necessary to avoid HSL changes the dynamic and lowers the chances of surviving.

With most mediums the snub trio was a 'peek, poke, vanish' weapons combo. Peek around a corner or hill, fire a single alpha blast and retreat before the opponent can return fire. Usually the opponent is larger with a much higher alpha capability.

Staggered fire, 2 pause1, changes things to peek, poke, pause, poke, eat a full alpha straight on, die.

There's no one here who doesn't know that the half second to one second pause facing an opponent to avoid ghost heat is easily the difference between a grazing shot on an arm and a striped CT or poppeed side torso.