20 replies to this topic

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

I used ammo based ams for a long time until i observed the heat impact of LASER-AMS systems.
its pretty much non existent.even under heavy use the laser ams dosent build up heat.
So with a weight of 1,5 tons (what you need to get a basic loadout of ams with 1 ton of ammo) and no negative effects (like it woud explode like a gauss rifle when getting a crit for example) there is simply no point in using ammo based ams systems because their limitations in usability are obvious (1 ton of ams ammo is used up pretty quickly PLUS the ammo can explode)
Is this intentional or just "bad" game design?

[Nightbird]

You've figured it out, keep using LAMS and win.

Unless you made a miscalculation somewhere and all the people using AMS is actually right...

Edited by Nightbird, 09 July 2022 - 01:17 PM.

[FupDup]

AMS ammo no longer explodes, actually.

As for heat, it's not as much as it used to be but it can still slow down your dissipation similar to using JJs. Regular AMS lets you go maximum DPS.

My own balancing opinion is that LAMS vs. AMS should've been solved with the former getting more range and/or damage so you sacrifice DPS for better protection, rather than reducing its heat so that its main drawback is diminished and the two start blending together.

EDIT: Also, on the IS side, regular AMS has the advantage of being able to fit in a single-slot area (LAMS is 2-slots). The Clan version however has no such advantage because CLAMS is also 1 slot only (and just 1 ton!).

Edited by FupDup, 09 July 2022 - 01:20 PM.

[Heavy Money]

AMS was also better in the past except on some very low heat builds. then they reduced LAMS heat by like 2/3rds, lol. Now LAMS is the default unless there are slow issues for IS.

But note that it can still cause a relevant amount of height when used on pure energy builds like laservom, and on low dissipation builds it can prevent you cooling off which can matter.

Overall both are in a pretty good place now.

[ScrapIron Prime]

On IS mechs, I always use regular AMS, because as pointed out, you can split the crits and load only a half ton of ammo if you want, plus the ammo never explodes. Its a really rare game that I run out of ammo on a full ton, so might as well go with the zero heat option.

Clan mechs... well, the one with the ammo takes up more space and potentially more tonnage. So why use anything but LAMS?

[Rondoe]

I almost always use L-AMS.

The one exception I can remember where I use a regular AMS is on my Fafnir 6U. The AMS slot is in the head and it's only one slot for it. So regular it is, no room for the Laser one!

[Rabid Imp]

The only real downside I think is something like a Kitfox PR; LAMs can prevent you from cooling down. I used to have 3 but it just got to hot, however 2 seems to work fine. I never notice it much unless I am in the thick of it and it starts going off...damn cannot shoot or I will overheat...Probably less of an issue on heavier mechs, but 3x LAMs on a light can get dangerous quick.

Edited by Rabid Imp, 10 July 2022 - 03:12 AM.

[LordNothing]

i feel like we have been down this road before, but in reverse.

you simply have a situation where you have 2 almost identical options to do the same job, and so long as there is only one tradeoff, one will always be better than the other. you buff the heat of the lams because it was too hot and now the ams is obsolete. there need to be more tradeoffs.

maybe the lams needs to have less damage and more range, and the ams is given higher damage with less range. the result is you have the ams which is better at self defence, and lams is better at covering more buddies. the ams would also do better against brawly missiles like srms and atms. thats one idea anyway.

[D A T A]

1312SHR1312, on 09 July 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

I used ammo based ams for a long time until i observed the heat impact of LASER-AMS systems.
its pretty much non existent.even under heavy use the laser ams dosent build up heat.
So with a weight of 1,5 tons (what you need to get a basic loadout of ams with 1 ton of ammo) and no negative effects (like it woud explode like a gauss rifle when getting a crit for example) there is simply no point in using ammo based ams systems because their limitations in usability are obvious (1 ton of ams ammo is used up pretty quickly PLUS the ammo can explode)
Is this intentional or just "bad" game design?

It's only bad game understanding.
Lams has value for you only if you don't understand/value your heat dissipation rate....and playing like that is a very sub optimal way to play.
Plus, ams ammo deos not explode.

Edited by D A T A, 10 July 2022 - 07:49 AM.

[LordNothing]

sometimes i question whether or not it should. ams ammo is technically the same as machine gun ammo. restoring the boom would give another tradeoff.

[Urbie Connoisseur]

Surprised nobody mentioned it yet, but I could imagine heat from L-AMS building up with stealth armor on.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Marida Connoisseur, on 11 July 2022 - 06:03 PM, said:

Surprised nobody mentioned it yet, but I could imagine heat from L-AMS building up with stealth armor on.

I'd say running LAMS on stealth defeats the purpose. No need for cloaking if you constantly shoot laserbeams into the sky.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Nightbird, on 09 July 2022 - 01:17 PM, said:

You've figured it out, keep using LAMS and win.

Unless you made a miscalculation somewhere and all the people using AMS is actually right...

if they carry 5 tons of ams ammo they might be

FupDup, on 09 July 2022 - 01:18 PM, said:

AMS ammo no longer explodes, actually.

As for heat, it's not as much as it used to be but it can still slow down your dissipation similar to using JJs. Regular AMS lets you go maximum DPS.

My own balancing opinion is that LAMS vs. AMS should've been solved with the former getting more range and/or damage so you sacrifice DPS for better protection, rather than reducing its heat so that its main drawback is diminished and the two start blending together.

EDIT: Also, on the IS side, regular AMS has the advantage of being able to fit in a single-slot area (LAMS is 2-slots). The Clan version however has no such advantage because CLAMS is also 1 slot only (and just 1 ton!).

yea but with minimum ammo (what many people chioose) its still 2 slots

Heavy Money, on 09 July 2022 - 01:46 PM, said:

AMS was also better in the past except on some very low heat builds. then they reduced LAMS heat by like 2/3rds, lol. Now LAMS is the default unless there are slow issues for IS.

But note that it can still cause a relevant amount of height when used on pure energy builds like laservom, and on low dissipation builds it can prevent you cooling off which can matter.

Overall both are in a pretty good place now.

but to stop you cooling down and woud need to build up heat in the first place oO?

[Magnus Santini]

With the recent buff to flamers, and their resurgence, I would be cautious allowing any system to increase heat when it wants. But the problem was fixed for me when they removed the rewards for using AMS. Heat sinks are a good substitute for AMS systems as is ammo. I guess the team should have better positioned itself or something.

[Nightbird]

1312SHR1312, on 13 July 2022 - 04:47 AM, said:

if they carry 5 tons of ams ammo they might be



yea but with minimum ammo (what many people chioose) its still 2 slots



but to stop you cooling down and woud need to build up heat in the first place oO?

Use what you are happy with. Most people don't use LAMS because having heat dissipation in a fight is important and also 1/2 ton of ammo per AMS is enough for QP.

[Saved By The Bell]

Looks like this game about various PPC now.

So AMS and LRM is obsolete.

I am a bit out of trend.

[FupDup]

1312SHR1312, on 13 July 2022 - 04:47 AM, said:

yea but with minimum ammo (what many people chioose) its still 2 slots

You can put the ammo in a separate location from the actual AMS unit, for example putting AMS in the head and ammo in the CT. You can't do that with IS-LAMS. Or maybe due to DHS or something your AMS location just doesn't have the extra slot to fit LAMS but can fit AMS, so you can put the ammo elsewhere.

It's a situational thing.

[RockmachinE]

Saved By The Bell, on 13 July 2022 - 09:13 AM, said:

Looks like this game about various PPC now.

So AMS and LRM is obsolete.

I am a bit out of trend.

Pretty much.

[feeWAIVER]

LordNothing, on 10 July 2022 - 11:54 AM, said:

sometimes i question whether or not it should. ams ammo is technically the same as machine gun ammo. restoring the boom would give another tradeoff.

I wouldn't mind if they brought back ams ammo explosion.
Though I would recommend it only damages the component, and would be unable to bring a component below 5 or 10 hp.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

FupDup, on 13 July 2022 - 12:42 PM, said:

You can put the ammo in a separate location from the actual AMS unit, for example putting AMS in the head and ammo in the CT. You can't do that with IS-LAMS. Or maybe due to DHS or something your AMS location just doesn't have the extra slot to fit LAMS but can fit AMS, so you can put the ammo elsewhere.

It's a situational thing.

ok makes sense, got your point