141 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 July 2022 - 07:41 AM, said:

And if you want to compare post-patch HBK-GI, you must compare it to post-patch MDD-C and SNS-D. Not pre-patch.

Nope you don't need to do that, 50 Ton Clan Hunchback IIC: https://mwo.nav-alph...7df1e_HBK-IIC-C

You can chain fire your 2 gauss rifles to be equal to the inferior Grid Iron if you want.

But if you are being honest with yourself you'd say two gauss rifles that can be alphaed on a chassis with JJ is better.

Edited by Nightbird, 19 July 2022 - 08:14 AM.

[S E 7 E N]

No agility buffs to clan assaults?....
Oh wait, they have buffed the armour and structure.....for both Clan and IS from 60t upwards?
Oh great, now the Atlas and Fafnir and ANNI will have even more armour, but have the same mobility??
Nah... Not top of the pops with me
<sigh>
I'll wait another month.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 19 July 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

I know from the inaccuracy of your last JJ calculations chart that mat/stats isn't your main area of expertise, but I trust you know to how calculate averages. The MWO stats website have breakdowns by weight class, and you can easily see from the averages that lights are by far the worst class and assaults are the best class.

That you frame the size of assaults as somehow being a reason for needing buffs is beyond disingenuous, it's downright fraudulent. You just want to buff the most OP, top performing mechs in the game today.

You framed the boost to armor and structure skill tree as a 80% boost to make it sound like a crazy change.
You got called out on it.

Simple. No crazy math required.

Now tell me why a 7.2% increase in total armor and 6.4% increase in total structure (in best case for a 100 tonner) will have a bad effect.
I know that you know about those %s, so that makes your framing to be coming from pure ill intent, due to past history.

The size and shape of a mech is a perfect reason to base survival boosts on. That's why a Fafnir gets +38 CT armor and still gets cored CT from all angles and an Annihilator gets +8. Now tell me how many "most OP and top performing class" assault mechs you can name vs the whole assault mech line up.


Also MWO stats page has accumulated data since almost 10 years ago. Another piece of dishonesty. If you can get me such a table for the past 6-7 months per player, then we can talk.

And btw, trying to reverse engineer an unknown box, based on raw measurements when things don't match what they should is just a problem with unknowns you tune to fit things together. Your estimation that all thrust forces are going through an 80% debuff when applied is a estimation that is leading to accurate results when compared to measurements. Otherwise, we both know how physics works... and we both don't have access to the game's code.


I also have a new set of measurements on fall damage. Do you want to check them?

Edited by Navid A1, 19 July 2022 - 09:55 AM.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Going to ignore Staude, because previous comment is nonsensical.



I have mixed feelings about this patch:
I like most of the quirk changes, as usual, but:

Why did a lot of the Wolfhound builds need to be buffed? I don’t think its that weak.

SNS-D buffs are a little extreme. Maybe cut out the UAC jam chance, or reduce cooldown quirk to 5 or 10%.

BNC-LM buffs seem extreme. It mostly relies on hybrid builds, and with these buffs I think it will be OP. I do like the buffs to its missile builds though.


Quite pleased with skill tree adjustments this time:
Finally! Quick Ignition has some use! (albeit minor)
Hill climb finally useful on big archetype mechs. (thought it worked before after trying to climb mountains in an Annihilator in testing grounds, but maybe not - how embarrassing )
Reinforced casing finally useful, especially on mechs like Atlas, Number Seven and Pretty Boy.
Torso speed skills now don’t throw off muscle memory.
Mostly approve of survival tree changes, but:

I think it benefits assaults too much this time, although maybe its done to balance versus mobility and firepower. The point of this IMO is to make the effect of survival skills similar across the weight classes; if you think assaults need more armor than add it directly.

Here is what I would have done:

Tonnage – Armor – Structure
65T – 1.8 – 3.3
70T – 1.7 – 3.2
75T – 1.7 – 3.2
80T – 1.6 – 3.1
85T – 1.6 – 3.1
90T – 1.5 – 3
95T – 1.5 – 3
100T – 1.5 – 3

Whether assaults need extra armor, I will leave to the community to decide. I personally think some assaults need something like 3-4% more armor now (i.e. with my changes), and mediums and lights need slightly better firepower - although I need to do more research to really get to a good conclusion.


Happy to see MM finally fixed. I have a lot more to say about MM though.

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 19 July 2022 - 10:05 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 19 July 2022 - 09:54 AM, said:

Also MWO stats page has accumulated data since almost 10 years ago. Another piece of dishonesty. If you can get me such a table for the past 6-7 months per player, then we can talk.

WTF seriously? All the Light versus Assault stats by player for every season

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 19 July 2022 - 10:07 AM, said:

WTF seriously? All the Light versus Assault stats by player for every season

Yes... but can you tell me the mechs these guys are playing?

No matter how hard I look at these stats, a large number of heavies and assaults are going to suck regardless. Always easier to remove/reduce stuff from a few outliers.

It's been 3 months now that we've been reducing quirks on mechs that don't need them
And light mechs are constantly going through boosting passes when their performance are not where they should be.

WLF and JVNs this month, Commando and one or two others next month.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 July 2022 - 10:15 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 19 July 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

Yes... but can you tell me the mechs these guys are playing?

No matter how hard I look at these stats, a large number of heavies and assaults are going to suck regardless. Always easier to remove/reduce stuff from a few outliers.

It's been 3 months now that we've been reducing quirks on mechs that don't need them

You BUFFed ALL ASSAULTs. You sir are incompetent.

[C337Skymaster]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 July 2022 - 07:00 AM, said:

I accept your general reasoning, because your arguments make good sense. A few comments though:

Agree with power creep before Cauldron took over. However, apart from the Wolfhound MPL buff, which makes my eye twitch, Cauldron has basically just rebalanced all mechs according to some benchmarks.

While heat efficiency did essentially improve with buffs to heatsinks and the prevalence of DHS, mechs had always taken multiple shots when crossing open areas since the beta. I suppose that it feels even more punishing now, now that more people have gotten used to the game and are using optimal builds.

Limitation for mech rescale is PGI resources – Cauldron would love it, but have to make do with second bests.

So power creep has continued even after Cauldron takeover. cERLL, as an example, has had damage increased, heat decreased. There have been other similar examples.

Something that the game has always struggled with is what components of the TT game they wish to adopt, and which they wish to fudge. The speed a 'mech can move (and prior to desync, the speed with which it could twist and turn) are based on a 10 second turn in a TT match, and the number of movement points it has to move in that time. Those speeds were adopted 1:1.

The amount of damage a 'mech could dish out in the same amount of time was limited to its total alpha strike every 10 seconds (less if heat restricted). This part has been drastically increased due to having the same or increased damage output (cERLL, cLPL, IS PPC, ERPPC all do 10 dmg on TT, but cERLL is up to 11 dmg, now, cLPL is up to 13, while IS PPC and ERPPC are still at 10), and dramatically increased rates of fire (less than half in most cases).

A TT cERLL or IS PPC had a DPS of 1. In the time it takes for a target 'mech to cross from one bit of cover to another, they could expect to take 1 DPS per weapon carried from a boat of one of these weapons. In MWO as it stands, the DPS of a cERLL is 1.9, a cLPL is 2.9, and PPC and ERPPC are 2.5.

Moving the same speed across the same distance from cover to cover, 'mechs are exposed to twice as much firepower, or more, than was intended in their speed calculations. The doubled armor/doubled ammo adjustment was meant to account for the fact that aiming in MWO is inherently easier and more accurate, and the chances of landing every single weapon on the same component are drastically increased based on the aiming mechanics built into the game. It was not intended to account for the fact that weapons shoot two or three times as fast without generating as much heat (cERLL started at 12 heat, is down to 10 heat, cLPL from 10 to 9, PPC from 10 to 9, ERPPC from 15 to 12).

You want to increase TTK, draw out matches, and make them more strategic and more fun? Revert every weapon's DPS back to what it was on TT. Make whatever adjustments you want to with regards to damage vs cooldown for flavor, just correct the overall DPS. From there we won't need nearly so many armor quirks. Just a few small ones on large protrusions that honestly make sense given the larger surface area being covered (that's what I thought the Hunchback quirk was for when I started playing in 2015. The shoulder is physically much more massive, so it makes sense that it requires more armor plates to cover it completely).

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 19 July 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

You BUFFed ALL ASSAULTs. You sir are incompetent.

well, duh... .have you been reading what I was saying?
I explained what needed explaining.

What else can I say... Stay Mad I guess?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

now, I like the cauldrons work: very many good things came out of it, 1meh-to-bad
(atms = meh and not worth it, when strait hide-it-out-lurms do BETTER in the same situation, imho).

that buff-via-nodes for assaultmechs however..
guys, srsly? sounds like an april-fools joke.

I get that SOME assaults needed a buff. so buff them.
handing out free armor+structure for EVERYBODY, including the overperforming ones, is just: very, very bad.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 19 July 2022 - 10:55 AM.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

C337Skymaster, on 19 July 2022 - 10:25 AM, said:

So power creep has continued even after Cauldron takeover. cERLL, as an example, has had damage increased, heat decreased. There have been other similar examples.

Something that the game has always struggled with is what components of the TT game they wish to adopt, and which they wish to fudge. The speed a 'mech can move (and prior to desync, the speed with which it could twist and turn) are based on a 10 second turn in a TT match, and the number of movement points it has to move in that time. Those speeds were adopted 1:1.

The amount of damage a 'mech could dish out in the same amount of time was limited to its total alpha strike every 10 seconds (less if heat restricted). This part has been drastically increased due to having the same or increased damage output (cERLL, cLPL, IS PPC, ERPPC all do 10 dmg on TT, but cERLL is up to 11 dmg, now, cLPL is up to 13, while IS PPC and ERPPC are still at 10), and dramatically increased rates of fire (less than half in most cases).

A TT cERLL or IS PPC had a DPS of 1. In the time it takes for a target 'mech to cross from one bit of cover to another, they could expect to take 1 DPS per weapon carried from a boat of one of these weapons. In MWO as it stands, the DPS of a cERLL is 1.9, a cLPL is 2.9, and PPC and ERPPC are 2.5.

Moving the same speed across the same distance from cover to cover, 'mechs are exposed to twice as much firepower, or more, than was intended in their speed calculations. The doubled armor/doubled ammo adjustment was meant to account for the fact that aiming in MWO is inherently easier and more accurate, and the chances of landing every single weapon on the same component are drastically increased based on the aiming mechanics built into the game. It was not intended to account for the fact that weapons shoot two or three times as fast without generating as much heat (cERLL started at 12 heat, is down to 10 heat, cLPL from 10 to 9, PPC from 10 to 9, ERPPC from 15 to 12).

You want to increase TTK, draw out matches, and make them more strategic and more fun? Revert every weapon's DPS back to what it was on TT. Make whatever adjustments you want to with regards to damage vs cooldown for flavor, just correct the overall DPS. From there we won't need nearly so many armor quirks. Just a few small ones on large protrusions that honestly make sense given the larger surface area being covered (that's what I thought the Hunchback quirk was for when I started playing in 2015. The shoulder is physically much more massive, so it makes sense that it requires more armor plates to cover it completely).

What do you even mean by power creep?

Better agility? That is true.

Better armor? That is true.

Better firepower? Not really: though most builds are better, the most dominant builds have stayed the same.

I have tried ERLL as a light sniper - it was painful during the March 2021 era. I get that it is very strong now, but the Cauldron has been rolling back ERLL buffs for a while now (heat and laser duration increased AFAIK).
I also tried cERPPC as well and it was disgusting in the past. Now I actually have to work for my kills.


I understand your issues regarding TTK and I can't see the whole community's opinion on this issue due to personal internet problems, but I suggest striking a balance where most of the community will be happy.

I think I talked about how to increase TTK, which was similar to what you said, but I can't remember what it was exactly - just search my posts. I didn't include reduction in ROF because I don't want the game to have too many alpha-centric builds - getting deleted in 1 second from a bad peek can get really annoying, from distant memory.

[pattonesque]

Nightbird, on 19 July 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

You BUFFed ALL ASSAULTs. You sir are incompetent.

why didn't you capitalize the ed in BUFFed and the s in ASSAULTs?

[C337Skymaster]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 July 2022 - 11:05 AM, said:

What do you even mean by power creep?

Better agility? That is true.

Better armor? That is true.

Better firepower? Not really: though most builds are better, the most dominant builds have stayed the same.

I have tried ERLL as a light sniper - it was painful during the March 2021 era. I get that it is very strong now, but the Cauldron has been rolling back ERLL buffs for a while now (heat and laser duration increased AFAIK).
I also tried cERPPC as well and it was disgusting in the past. Now I actually have to work for my kills.


I understand your issues regarding TTK and I can't see the whole community's opinion on this issue due to personal internet problems, but I suggest striking a balance where most of the community will be happy.

I think I talked about how to increase TTK, which was similar to what you said, but I can't remember what it was exactly - just search my posts. I didn't include reduction in ROF because I don't want the game to have too many alpha-centric builds - getting deleted in 1 second from a bad peek can get really annoying, from distant memory.

So the agility is technically supposed to be the one advantage 'mechs have over tanks, thus increasing it benefits overall gameplay. Engine Desync was probably the single biggest killer to the playerbase, and a complete reversal of that wouldn't be unwarranted, in my opinion. (I wish there was a way to play the game such that Urbanmechs and Annihilators with stock engines are already lying in wait in defensive positions, on or inside buildings, etc, and simply have to stand their ground against an advancing assault. That was their purpose, and the reason they go so slow. Having to meet in the middle of an open battlefield is putting them at a marked disadvantage, hence the massive interest in engine buffs)

Armor quirks are getting a little crazy. Armor is already doubled from TT stats due to the elimination of some randomness when landing shots from multiple weapons. Builds were based on firing four PPCs and possibly having only one of them hit, or at least hitting 4 different locations. In MWO, if you fire four with the same trigger, if one hits, they all hit, AND hit the same location, so going through-armor with TT values was laughably easy. Forced chain fire would go a long way towards helping with that problem, but I can already hear the backlash.

Firepower is where the real departure lies, however. As I stated: DPS is double or triple what it's supposed to be, based on the same calculations that give us our top movement speeds, so a 'mech moving across open terrain is subjected to double or triple the incoming fire, in addition to it all pinpointing to the same component if fired at the same time. We've already departed from full-on pinpoint damage upfront in a few cases: Ultra Autocannons, instead of firing one shell that hits one location (per TT mechanics), fire multiple rounds that can scatter across a target, but which add up to an equal amount of total damage. We can take that further, if we want to: Pulse Lasers can deal 1 damage, but fire every second, whereas ERLL could deal 10 damage, but have a full 10 second cooldown, or some variation thereof. It's open to quite a bit of flexibility, but the end result should be to reduce DPS to match with the speed calculations (so if a weapon does 1 DPS on TT, then it does 1 DPS, regardless of what its alpha capability is). We can then cut those pinpoint alphas in half, or even quarter them, but enable those 'mechs to keep on shooting.

On an unrelated note: Targeting Computer laser buffs should be to duration, not to range. Any chance of making that change, Navid? Pulse Lasers represent their high accuracy with short duration, standard and ER lasers with medium duration, and Heavy Lasers with super long duration. Targeting Computers are just supposed to increase hit-chance, thus, laser duration.

[Buenaventura]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 July 2022 - 03:57 PM, said:

BUG FIXES

• Hill Climb nodes now function as intended and will reduce the slow down rate of your mech when going over sudden changes of ground slope (rocks, uneven terrain, small hills, steps, etc.). This node was acting in reverse previously.
  
• Clan Ultra Auto Cannon 10 now deals full 10 damage instead of 9.9999, which allows it to destroy a UAV within optimum range in one shot.

So is the Vitric Station colour problem for AMD GPUs fixed (and you forgot to mention it) or not (and you forgot to mention that)?

[Staude Coston]

Stalker is very good Mechs
puff off Structur+Armor

was it necessary ?

[sycxowl]

D V Devnull, on 18 July 2022 - 04:40 PM, said:

Can anyone tell me what this "v1.4.264.0 - July 18th, 2022" Patch will mean to a Win7 user who can't hang onto their MWO connection and has zero issues with their computer other than MWO acting up badly since the "Error 13" Patch and the "v1.4.261.0 - June 21st, 2022" Patch both landed??? I can not upgrade or get a new system regardless of what I do, this issue has been acting like an ocean wave on steroids, and I'm beginning to feel like PGI's MWO Team does not want part of their player base anymore!

~D. V. "being killed too much by rubberbanding for the last 27 days, and feeling like 'v1.4.264.0' won't fix that" Devnull

Why can't you just install Windows 10/11? Or buy a new PC?

You can't or just unwilling to learn how to install or spend?

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 19 July 2022 - 10:53 AM, said:

now, I like the cauldrons work: very many good things came out of it, 1meh-to-bad
(atms = meh and not worth it, when strait hide-it-out-lurms do BETTER in the same situation, imho).

that buff-via-nodes for assaultmechs however..
guys, srsly? sounds like an april-fools joke.

I get that SOME assaults needed a buff. so buff them.
handing out free armor+structure for EVERYBODY, including the overperforming ones, is just: very, very bad.

While I don't completely agree with Nightbird, especially on interpreting light versus assault statistics.

THIS I agree with:
All I see wrong with the survival tree is how it rewards health to assault mechs in general.

That is a good fix for the future.

Handing out free health willy nilly is not a good change IMO (think DWF, think Stalker).

That said, as long as problem mechs get nerfed and weaker mechs get buffed I am happy.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

C337Skymaster, on 19 July 2022 - 11:24 AM, said:

So the agility is technically supposed to be the one advantage 'mechs have over tanks, thus increasing it benefits overall gameplay. Engine Desync was probably the single biggest killer to the playerbase, and a complete reversal of that wouldn't be unwarranted, in my opinion. (I wish there was a way to play the game such that Urbanmechs and Annihilators with stock engines are already lying in wait in defensive positions, on or inside buildings, etc, and simply have to stand their ground against an advancing assault. That was their purpose, and the reason they go so slow. Having to meet in the middle of an open battlefield is putting them at a marked disadvantage, hence the massive interest in engine buffs)

Armor quirks are getting a little crazy. Armor is already doubled from TT stats due to the elimination of some randomness when landing shots from multiple weapons. Builds were based on firing four PPCs and possibly having only one of them hit, or at least hitting 4 different locations. In MWO, if you fire four with the same trigger, if one hits, they all hit, AND hit the same location, so going through-armor with TT values was laughably easy. Forced chain fire would go a long way towards helping with that problem, but I can already hear the backlash.

Firepower is where the real departure lies, however. As I stated: DPS is double or triple what it's supposed to be, based on the same calculations that give us our top movement speeds, so a 'mech moving across open terrain is subjected to double or triple the incoming fire, in addition to it all pinpointing to the same component if fired at the same time. We've already departed from full-on pinpoint damage upfront in a few cases: Ultra Autocannons, instead of firing one shell that hits one location (per TT mechanics), fire multiple rounds that can scatter across a target, but which add up to an equal amount of total damage. We can take that further, if we want to: Pulse Lasers can deal 1 damage, but fire every second, whereas ERLL could deal 10 damage, but have a full 10 second cooldown, or some variation thereof. It's open to quite a bit of flexibility, but the end result should be to reduce DPS to match with the speed calculations (so if a weapon does 1 DPS on TT, then it does 1 DPS, regardless of what its alpha capability is). We can then cut those pinpoint alphas in half, or even quarter them, but enable those 'mechs to keep on shooting.

On an unrelated note: Targeting Computer laser buffs should be to duration, not to range. Any chance of making that change, Navid? Pulse Lasers represent their high accuracy with short duration, standard and ER lasers with medium duration, and Heavy Lasers with super long duration. Targeting Computers are just supposed to increase hit-chance, thus, laser duration.

See that's not a power creep issue, that is a disconnect between TT lore and MWO. Bear in mind that no MW game has really followed TT down to a tee.

Some of your points make sense, but we must balance the game between lore and fun.

Might make more comments, if I feel like it.

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 19 July 2022 - 12:12 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 July 2022 - 12:11 PM, said:

See that's not a power creep issue, that is a disconnect between TT lore and MWO. Bear in mind that no MW game has really followed TT down to a tee.

Some of your points make sense, but we must balance the game between lore and fun.

Might make more comments, if I feel like it.

I mean, it IS a power creep issue, it's just a matter of where it's creeping from. The fact that since Cauldron intervention, cERLL have gone from 9/11 dmg/heat to 11/10 is also a power creep. (That's the one example I have off the top of my head, but there have been others). MWO started out following TT to a Tee, and has been slowly creeping away from it ever since (with dramatic acceleration in that creep-away since Cauldron started advising PGI).

[Knownswift]

Tabletop is made out of power creep. It is essentially baked into the franchise. Bad example.