69 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

along with old terra therma.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 12 August 2022 - 07:42 AM, said:

I mean, you hit on one of the big points against the whole 'Snipers are Ruining MWO Forever' thing - bad snipers lose games. Or rather, bad snipers don't affect games, because they faff around nine hundred meters behind the fight dealing three hundred whole damage to the two or three guys that don't know how to identify lanes of fire and find cover, and the whole while their team is playing one man down. A really good assault-weight sniper is a Problem, yes - but I'd argue that a really good assault-weight pilot is a Problem regardless of the range they opt to play at. That quad minigoose Fatner, in the hands of a pilot that knows what to do with it, is going to be super dangerous, yes. So's a dub-20 quad-snub Fatner that can deal forty pinpoint damage per click with two clicks to donate at a time in the hands of a pilot that really knows what to do with it.

I think it is important to understand that making this easier to pull of isn't necessarily a good thing which is the real problem with the bowl design maps. Old HPG for example, the only thing you might find up on the top is a Shadow Cat or Spider once in a blue moon that decided to waste their time trying to poke. By lowering the bar of entry, you are effectively incentivizing that style of play. I'd argue sure you'll have some players who don't know what they are doing but I imagine comp this probably gets played pretty heavily because you have sightlines on so much of the map. Sure you can work center but it also means you are somewhat blind to things. On the wall unless a brawling team has JJs, you have plenty of time to cripple them on their way up and or fan out and cripple the brawl team. It just doesn't lend itself to interesting play.

Love it or hate it, it makes for more boring play. Canyon is now similar because the cover in the center broke up sightlines so you had to work more angles to cover more territory, now the center is effectively no-man's land because the ridges around the side are the only thing that offer cover and rotating in canyon has always been a bit more risky, but now even more so. We've just traded one bad design for a worse one (racetracks for bowls).

Then you have mining, which is still probably the best map in the game and the only one they haven't touched yet (thank goodness). It's also asymmetric is still somehow enjoyable. However the only con is that it heavily incentivizes JJ mechs more so than even canyon because detours for non-JJ mechs can be expensive. It also limits the angles you can work a bit.

1453 R, on 12 August 2022 - 07:42 AM, said:

If you see a sniper, just snipe him back or get close to him and gut him.

I think it is important to understand that the closing part is easier said then done against good players, and this is because they can reasonably have more guns online on the wall to gut you on the close. Sure in low tier play it might be not as big of a deal because there is less coordination and less good aim, but it is more of a deal in higher tier play. Plus, the more mechs that "split the party" means the less friendlies to support the rest. So yeah, you may eventually get that guy off the wall but now half your team is dead in the time it took you to get to them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 August 2022 - 07:05 PM.

[1453 R]

Lockheed_, on 12 August 2022 - 06:26 PM, said:

Spirit of the game = made up set of moral guidelines based on personal, limiting views.

There's no cheating inside what is legal in COC and TOS.

Okay. Let me be clearer.

Using out-of-game tools and techniques to modify the game files in a way that grants you a significant, undeniable edge over players who are playing the game the way it was intended to be played, as evidenced by the fact that the things people are using user.cfg files to erase were put into the game in the first place at the cost of developer time and effort, is a scummy move for scumbags. Is it "cheating" by the definition of "an act outside the game rules intended to derive an unfair competitive advantage"? Technically, no. Is it "cheating" by the definition of "a mean-spirited attempt to derive an unfair competitive advantage in a way that encourages/incentivizes bad-faith play"? Yes. Yes it is. if you want to Final Destination No Items MWO, find a corner of Old Polar to hold all your events on.

The obscurement on maps like Caustic and Forest Colony is meant to be there. Taking it away breaks the map and allows you to see things the other team literally, factually cannot see. It is cheating. If you don't like it being called out as exactly what it is? Too bad. I don't like so-called 'competitive' players using out-of-game tools to edit their game files in a way that gives them an edge you can't match using in-game tools so they can farm players relying on things you have edited out of the game. User.cfg is an accessibility tool and a streamer meme generator for doing funny noises and/or playing old MechWarrior sounds for nostalgia. Using it as a GameShark to eliminate things you find burdensome is, always has been, and always will be cheating no matter Piranha's stance on enforcement.

Anyways.

@Quicksilver: Is the modern iteration of maps really worse than maps with absolutely nothing going on for them save a gigantic Central Cover Dingus that completely eliminates long-range combat as an option and nigh demands a game of Potato Rotation around the Central Cover Dingus? Does nobody remember the days of sheerest agony watching eleven 'Mechs try and cram themselves up each other's exhaust ports around the Central Cover Dingus in Canyon, seeing twenty-plus robits all hanging out within two hundred meters of each other and yet mortally terrified of poking their nose out from behind the most humped rock in the entire Inner Sphere? Waiting for one guy to work up the stones to poke, at which point it's off to the races and time to circle the toilet bowl as fast as you can? You couldn't grab distance and try to take better ground because your team would rotate out of the way and leave you hanging to dry while the enemy notices a cookie and pivots.

You can't ever avoid the three-grid-square go-cart racing Idiot Derby either, because the Moron's Bumrush is absolute. Even if you can manage to convince a team of Puglandians to try a new plan - and credit where it's due, there's usually at least a few guys willing to try - it rarely works out because there's always on or two complete f@#$ing d@#$lords who just totally ignore you, totally ignore the rest of the team arraying around better ground and actually trying to execute a plan in favor of Moron's Bumrushing the middle of the map, dying, and disconnecting on the spot, leaving the rest of the team a few d@#$lords down and the enemy with no incentive to engage on the team's chosen better terms. Doesn't take many of those to convince the average Puglandian that it's never worth it to do something other than Moron's Bumrush. Until everybody is willing to get with the program when somebody steps up and shot calls, you'll never stop the Moron's Bumrush. And Moron's Bumrush + Central Cover Dingus = completely unavoidable Rotato Potato circling-the-drain idiot fights. I saw it for years, it got so predictable and boring I had to quit the game for three years. Are we really worse off with less linear maps that don't absolutely insist on the Three Grid Square Speed Polka?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 13 August 2022 - 06:35 AM, said:

@Quicksilver: Is the modern iteration of maps really worse than maps with absolutely nothing going on for them save a gigantic Central Cover Dingus that completely eliminates long-range combat as an option and nigh demands a game of Potato Rotation around the Central Cover Dingus?

Yes they are worse. And eliminate all long range combat? I don't know about you but distinctly remember maps like Polar, HPG, and Canyon being still pretty heavy on long range even with the central cover dingus. I remember PPC/Gauss getting nerfed to dissuade from its usage, the Night Gyr and Hunchback/Vapor Eagle dominating their weight classes. I don't know what you are talking about mid-long has always been the dominant force. The new maps just push the median range out more.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 August 2022 - 09:18 AM.

[Vonbach]

Central cover just means the snipers actually had to move on occasion. Instead of having LOS on virtually the entire map.

[martian]

MechB Kotare, on 12 August 2022 - 01:43 AM, said:

Dude, in most cases, 90% of those nice shiny big maps is not even being used, because most people just prefer to run towards the opposing team in direct line, thus making the rest of the map almost completely empty.

I think that there are three basic problems:

• static spawn zones
  
• objectives placed always in the centre of the map and in the same spot
  
• some parts of the maps are accessible in theory, but practically the easy access is blocked (by cliffs, rocks, lack of ramps). Or they are accessible, but there is no cover and those areas are in the plain sight of the enemy team, so only fool would go there. Etc.

[1453 R]

Objectives need to be placed equidistant from either spawn primarily because elsewise lopsided game modes would be even more lopsided. Imagine a Domination spawn where one side is so far from the point that no 'Mech moving less than 70kph can get to the circle in under a minute - it's entirely possible given how over-fat MWO is right now that such a game would be a Guaranteed Spawn Loss for the disadvantaged team.

Those areas of the map are supposed to be there for the small-scale skirmishes between lance-sized or less units that is the best MWO can possibly get, but there's nothing to find there and no reason to go there. And putting things of interest out there, e.g. 'bonus' consumables or even having semi-predictable popups for things loike an Incursion full-map radar sweep, would piss off 'Mech Dads upset at the gamist nonsense being dropped in their hArDcOrE sImUlAtIoN gAmE. Even if "Supplies delivered! Get them before the enemy does!" could make for a cool way to spice up games, disrupt the Moron's Bumrush, and Make Mobility Great Again.

[TheCaptainJZ]

The whole philosophy of the map redesigns was to remove cover in the middle to stop nascaring which relied on central cover. The design was intended to open some maps open to longer ranges so nascaring in the middle would get you shot at more so you stop doing it.

I don't care for lots of sniping either, mainly because I'm not so great at it and the most effective way to counter assault snipers is either lights, preferably in pairs or groups, or assault snipers and I don't play either of those very much, but you don't hear people whining about nascaring so much anymore so I guess it worked.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TheCaptainJZ, on 16 August 2022 - 11:13 AM, said:

The whole philosophy of the map redesigns was to remove cover in the middle to stop nascaring which relied on central cover. The design was intended to open some maps open to longer ranges so nascaring in the middle would get you shot at more so you stop doing it.

I think this was also done based on a false premise, that this would stop NASCARing, all it did was make the NASCAR have a wider track. NASCAR typically happens because of one or two reasons:
* The most common is people trying to gank a side and the rest of the team gets leary of staying that far apart. Generally its the lights and instead of mediums or heavies sticking with assaults to offer some protection against enemy lights they just follow the ring and leave assaults in the dust.
* The other reason is trying to get angles either in the hopes that they can close the gap for their shorter range (which is normally misguided and just leads to a lot of running for zero gain) or because of good play, you want to spread out and be able to threaten different parts of the map but also still be able to cover the rest of your team. However, teammates sticking to their positions in a mode where trust in your teammates is low, just promotes nascar.

[Burning2nd]

I love that you guys are crying about snipers... in a thread about old maps...

Yes old maps should never have been removed,

No your sniper skill (*even the best of the best) are worthless....

cause we can do 1000+damage in a 19ton mech... all of your assault jazz... is worthless

see nascar only exists to people who want to stand still